System to start with

Options
kendive
kendive Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
What are your opinions on this system. I am looking at getting 4 T-105 batteries and then as I add Panels I will add another bank of batteries.

4 Phono PS140M-20/U Monocrystalline 140 Watt
1 Magnum MS4024 inverter/charger
1 Magnum ME-RC50 remote control
US made SolarMount mounting rails.
US made SolarMount clamps.
Xantrex MPPT60 charge controller.
One pair of US made 5 foot 4/0 inverter cables with ring terminals for
direct connection to battery.
A US made 18" 4/0 battery cable with ring terminals.
A US made 300 amp T-fuse with holder.
US made UL approved 100 ft of sunlight resistant wiring.
2 US made MC4-10 10 foot length of MC wire with MC connectors attached.
1 US made Midnite Solar Baby Box.
1 MNEPV30 DC Photovoltaic breaker.
1 MNEPV63 DC Photovoltaic breaker.


$4,609 system cost
$384 freight to FL
TOTAL $4,993
· Share on Twitter

Comments

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    What are your expected loads? eg fridge 400Wh per day Please list.
    thanks

    e
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    As Eric suggests,, please provide load information.

    Loading is the most critical design element, as all else flows from that,

    Tony
    · Share on Twitter
  • kendive
    kendive Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
    #4
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    This will mainly be for power outages, But I would run a 24 cu ft Fridge and a small 5 cu ft chest freezer. I run all CFL's in the house for lighting. We have a 42 inch LED TV and a Dish Network box. I would also have a DSL modem and network switch. An Alarm panel and a DVR camera system running 24/7

    It's just my wife and I... and two cats. LOL

    Of coarse will not be running any 240 stuff like the AC, Water Heater, Dryer, and Stove. Our house is 100% Electric.

    We live in North West Florida. Pensacola area

    Thanks
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    I'll just point out that for occasional power outages generators are much more cost-effective.

    The T105's will give you approximately 3 kW hours of run time maximum.

    The 560 Watts of panel is marginal for recharging those batteries, especially if the weather is bad (which is usually when power goes out).

    The Magnum 4024 inverter is well able to handle the loads you indicate.

    You should get a Kill-A-Watt meter and do some actual measurements of your "critical" loads and see how much power they really use in a day. Very important for designing a battery-based system.

    And you're probably going to need a back-up generator anyway, so look into that first. The inverter-type gens are economical and quiet, and you could use one to recharge your batteries daily while keeping everything going. That way you get "quiet power" at night - and may not need the batteries.

    Keep in mind such a system will require inspection & maintenance even when not in use. Batteries will go bad over time no matter what.
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    Just a couple of things that you should know,

    For $4600 you can buy a Eu 2000 honda generator, and enough fuel to run it 24/7 for thousands of hours,, probably a much better deal for power outages, as it will have virtually unlimited run time.

    Second, An off grid battery based system, net/net will deliver ~ 1/2 of name plate rating, 4 ~ 4 hours per day, average.

    So your 560 watts of Pv might deliver like so: 560/2=280*4=1120 watt/hour/day on average. The 50% accounts for all cumulative system loses, the 4 hours represents the average number of hours of good sun one might reasonably expect to see, per day on average over the course of the year. Some days more, many days less.

    So, that 1.1 kwh, would maybe run your fridge, for the better part of a day and little else. Or it will run a 150 watt TV/sat box for ~ 7.5 hours.

    The error most people make is over estimating the amount of power they can actually harvest, while at the same time under estimating the amount of power they use in a day.

    Just for comparison, we have ~400 watts of panels, we use ~ 5-800 wh/day, and on a perfect day we can generate ~ 1.5 kwh, but on average, we generate just about what we use. No TV, no fridge, lap tops occasionally, sat modem, lights, fans and water pump.

    My guess is that what you are thinking about is too expensive, and too small to be very useful for emergency power,, like I suggested at first, consider a generator.

    I also think that the total cost for your system is a bit high, and some of the components are bigger than you need. (and you haven't included ~ $600 of 5 year batteries in the cost).

    Just some thoughts,

    Tony
    · Share on Twitter
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Options
    Re: System to start with
    kendive wrote: »
    What are your opinions on this system. I am looking at getting 4 T-105 batteries and then as I add Panels I will add another bank of batteries.

    4 Phono PS140M-20/U Monocrystalline 140 Watt
    1 Magnum MS4024 inverter/charger
    1 Magnum ME-RC50 remote control
    US made SolarMount mounting rails.
    US made SolarMount clamps.
    Xantrex MPPT60 charge controller.
    One pair of US made 5 foot 4/0 inverter cables with ring terminals for
    direct connection to battery.
    A US made 18" 4/0 battery cable with ring terminals.
    A US made 300 amp T-fuse with holder.
    US made UL approved 100 ft of sunlight resistant wiring.
    2 US made MC4-10 10 foot length of MC wire with MC connectors attached.
    1 US made Midnite Solar Baby Box.
    1 MNEPV30 DC Photovoltaic breaker.
    1 MNEPV63 DC Photovoltaic breaker.


    $4,609 system cost
    $384 freight to FL
    TOTAL $4,993

    expanding on a system isn't always easy to do as you wouldn't want to mix batteries that are significantly different in age and would also depend on usage. being this is a backups type deal that means the grid is there and the built-in charger can charge the batteries with around 105a. get the batteries you need now and size it for your expected usages over whatever time period you feel you'll need it for. of course you don't want to run everything as if the electric never went off, but gear it for critical appliances and items. a good bank could be 1000ah as this would be at roughly 10% of the charger's output, but the bank can be made to be a bit smaller. to have too small a bank will boil the electrolyte somewhat too quickly and may damage some batteries unless you opt for the me-rc remote as it can throttle back on the charge current.

    now pvs can be added as you go for the backups will mostly be powered by the grid. note that not everyone can run a generator 24/7 or at night, but a generator is good to have on hand none the less. the pvs can take some of the burden off of the grid for maintaining the batteries and can allow charging during prolonged outages. win win. i would concentrate first on the grid backups and then you can add the solar later if costs are too much for it all at once. if you can go all circuit breakers in the appropriate electrical boxes then do it. the fuse is ok to do, but you will need quite a few fuses on hand in case a problem appears. if you don't find and fix the problem before going through all of the fuses, you're stuck.:cry:

    i'm sure there will be others chiming in here with their various viewpoints too and all of which is worth your consideration as ultimately, you make the final decision on what you want.
    · Share on Twitter
  • kendive
    kendive Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
    #8
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    Thanks for all the input. I already own two Generators. I have a troy built 5550 and a Yamaha 2400iSH and both have Propane conversions kits I installed in them. I keep 2 100 pound propane bottle full and ready. I then have two 30 pound bottles on the RV and two 20 pounders for the grill. So I can provide power no problem in an outage.

    I installed a 10 circuit transfer switch to hook the generators into the house as needed.

    The Solar system would be just a added help and something I always wanted to install and have.

    So you are saying I might want to get a few more panels and at least 8 batteries. I thought about do that.

    Maybe two more 140 watt panels to make 6 total and then 8 batteries.
    · Share on Twitter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #9
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    Design based on common rules of thumb.

    How much charging current:
    • 6x 140 watt panels * 0.77 derating * 1/29 volt bat charge = 22.3 amp nominal
    A good rule of thumb for batteries ~5% to 13% rate of charge--10% is nice:
    • 22.3 amps * 1/0.13 = 172 AH @ 24 volts minimum (cost effective)
    • 22.3 amps * 1/0.10 = 223 AH @ 24 volts (nice system)
    • 22.3 amps * 1/0.05 = 446 AH @ 24 volts (lots of battery but minimum panel)
    How much energy... Using PV Watts for Mobile AL (assuming weather similar to yours) for 1kW of solar panels (minimum size supported) and 0.52 system derating:
    "Station Identification"
    "City:","Mobile"
    "State:","Alabama"
    "Lat (deg N):", 30.68
    "Long (deg W):", 88.25
    "Elev (m): ", 67
    "PV System Specifications"
    "DC Rating:"," 1.0 kW"
    "DC to AC Derate Factor:"," 0.520"
    "AC Rating:"," 0.5 kW"
    "Array Type: Fixed Tilt"
    "Array Tilt:"," 30.7"
    "Array Azimuth:","180.0"

    "Energy Specifications"
    "Cost of Electricity:"," 7.6 cents/kWh"

    "Results"
    "Month", "Solar Radiation (kWh/m^2/day)", "AC Energy (kWh)", "Energy Value ($)"
    1, 3.79, 57, 4.33
    2, 4.56, 63, 4.79
    3, 5.06, 73, 5.55
    4, 5.48, 77, 5.85
    5, 5.41, 76, 5.78
    6, 5.31, 70, 5.32
    7, 5.11, 69, 5.24
    8, 5.15, 70, 5.32
    9, 4.96, 66, 5.02
    10, 5.31, 77, 5.85
    11, 4.04, 57, 4.33
    12, 4.05, 61, 4.64
    "Year", 4.85, 817, 62.09

    So that is 57 to 77 kWH per month--840 watts of panels would be:
    • 57 kWH (Jan) * 0.840 kW/1kW of panels = 48 kWH for January
    • 77 kWH (Aprl) * 0.840 kW/1kW of panels = 65 kWH for April
    Or Watt*Hours (of AC power) per day:
    • 57,000 WH / 31 days = 1,839 WH per day January
    • 65,000 WH / 30 days = 2,167 WH per day April
    Looks like you have lots of marine layer/summer clouds which limit your summer power generation. Hours of sun in winter looks great.

    Are these useful numbers for you? Is this a useful system for you?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • kendive
    kendive Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
    #10
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    Thanks Bill for the info.

    I was just looking at our Gulf Power Bill.

    Looks like they charge .05931 for Energy and then another .05371 for a Fuel Charge.

    Usage was for Nov was 20 KWH per Day. The month before was 28 KWH per day.

    Now the this month was high at 43 KWH per day... Cold weather and Heat Pump running alot I am sure.
    · Share on Twitter
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    Hi Ken, I see you already have a separate circuit box for an 'alt power source'.

    What loads do you have wired into it?
    or what will you have drawing power from that circuit?

    the answer to this Question will determine how big you batt bank needs to be... see 1 & 2 below

    my thoughts are:

    1. set up the A/C, fridge and freezer on a new separate circuit fed by the Generator during the day. these are the energy hogs

    2. existing alt power circuit; run the lights, tv, pvr etc on solar/batteries with emergency charging from the gen set/s if it is too cloudy due to the storm.

    3. Battery charging, primarily from the grid, with boost from PV

    there are several threads here on the topic of how to minimize gen run time and get a good , less expensive recharge when needed by using the gen for BULK charge and PV for ABSORB and FLOAT. But that is another issue.

    cheers
    e
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
    · Share on Twitter
  • kendive
    kendive Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
    #12
    Options
    Re: System to start with
    icarus wrote: »

    I also think that the total cost for your system is a bit high, and some of the components are bigger than you need. (and you haven't included ~ $600 of 5 year batteries in the cost).

    Just some thoughts,

    Tony


    Is this not a good price for a solar system today... Where is the best place to shop. I figured that a 4000 watt inverter is probably over kill, but I would have room to grow the system. Maybe I need to think different and start off with a 2500 watt inverter and a smaller charge controller on a 24 volt system and just 4 agm batteries.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Options
    Re: System to start with
    kendive wrote: »
    Is this not a good price for a solar system today... Where is the best place to shop. I figured that a 4000 watt inverter is probably over kill, but I would have room to grow the system. Maybe I need to think different and start off with a 2500 watt inverter and a smaller charge controller on a 24 volt system and just 4 agm batteries.

    I hate to sound like a broken record but ... You've got to think "loads". Just going for "this" size system or "that" size system is not necessarily going to accomplish what you set out to do. As Niel mentioned, expanding solar power over time is tricky - to put it mildly.

    So if you can come up with some real-world usage figures on what your critical needs are now, and then a target for what you want to accomplish later - then you can examine the possibilities of various system designs.

    The figures you want to get are the maximum Watts you'll need at any one time (which sizes the inverter) and the total Watt hours you use in a day (which sizes the battery bank). After that you can determine how best to recharge those batteries.
    · Share on Twitter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #14
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    The problem with a 4kW inverter is with the current panels, you will use a day's generation of power (by the solar panels) in about 30 minutes at full power...

    Of course, people have to size the inverters much larger than motors to manage starting current (~5x is not unusual).

    But then that gets back to the size and type of battery bank... AGM batteries are very good at surge (upwards of C*4).

    Flooded cell, max continuous tends towards C/8 and max surge around C/2.5 (to avoid collapsing battery voltage when partially discharged).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    1: Define your loads.
    2: Design a system to fit those loads
    3: Price the parts and pieces from a number of reliable vendors
    4: Then you can see what makes sense and whether or not it is a bargain.


    Tony
    · Share on Twitter
  • kendive
    kendive Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
    #16
    Options
    Re: System to start with
    icarus wrote: »
    1: Define your loads.
    2: Design a system to fit those loads
    3: Price the parts and pieces from a number of reliable vendors
    4: Then you can see what makes sense and whether or not it is a bargain.


    Tony

    Thanks for the input... I will be doing some more figuring before I buy a system...

    I was getting these prices from partsonsale.com. They seem very helpful and respond to my questions quickly.
    · Share on Twitter
  • kendive
    kendive Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
    #17
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    "Station Identification"
    "City:","Mobile"
    "State:","Alabama"
    "Lat (deg N):", 30.68
    "Long (deg W):", 88.25
    "Elev (m): ", 67
    "PV System Specifications"
    "DC Rating:"," 1.0 kW"
    "DC to AC Derate Factor:"," 0.520"
    "AC Rating:"," 0.5 kW"
    "Array Type: Fixed Tilt"
    "Array Tilt:"," 30.7"
    "Array Azimuth:","180.0"

    "Energy Specifications"
    "Cost of Electricity:"," 7.6 cents/kWh"

    "Results"
    "Month", "Solar Radiation (kWh/m^2/day)", "AC Energy (kWh)", "Energy Value ($)"
    1, 3.79, 57, 4.33
    2, 4.56, 63, 4.79
    3, 5.06, 73, 5.55
    4, 5.48, 77, 5.85
    5, 5.41, 76, 5.78
    6, 5.31, 70, 5.32
    7, 5.11, 69, 5.24
    8, 5.15, 70, 5.32
    9, 4.96, 66, 5.02
    10, 5.31, 77, 5.85
    11, 4.04, 57, 4.33
    12, 4.05, 61, 4.64
    "Year", 4.85, 817, 62.09


    Do they have something like this for wind generators also? I would like to see what they say on that.

    Found it www.windenergy.com :D
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    Not to be a naysayer (again!) but most people are not very happy in the end with small scale wind. The problem is, you have large rotating hardware that lives in a harsh environment. When one has enough wind to be useful (over ~15 mph on AVERAGE over the course of the year, few places have this) you then have too much wind to keep the hardware from self destructing. Read through the wind threads to get a better idea of what I am talking about. It can be done, but like I said, few people are very happy in the end.

    Tony
    · Share on Twitter
  • dhsola
    dhsola Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
    #19
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    For another price comparison, you can look at this 48v system on sale from NAWS:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/ougvgrflsy72.html
    · Share on Twitter
  • kendive
    kendive Solar Expert Posts: 38 ✭
    #20
    Options
    Re: System to start with
    icarus wrote: »
    Not to be a naysayer (again!) but most people are not very happy in the end with small scale wind. The problem is, you have large rotating hardware that lives in a harsh environment. When one has enough wind to be useful (over ~15 mph on AVERAGE over the course of the year, few places have this) you then have too much wind to keep the hardware from self destructing. Read through the wind threads to get a better idea of what I am talking about. It can be done, but like I said, few people are very happy in the end.

    Tony

    I agree with you the more I look at those small wind generators the more they look like toys.

    I was just thinking on cloudy days usually the wind is picking up because of a storm and the wind generator would take over to help.

    And by the time I get it mounted high enough to get good wind it probably is not worth it.
    · Share on Twitter
  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #21
    Options
    Re: System to start with

    If you do happen to live in an area with adequate wind you need a 'real' turbine - not one of the 1000$ wonders - meaning it is a wonder they don't fly apart on the first day or week.

    Good turbines are expensive. Home Power has a couple of buyers guides that are available without subscription - they tell the story well.

    Russ
    · Share on Twitter

Categories