My 10.1KW System

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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #92
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    My Envoy came with a warning that you CANNOT plug it into a surge protector since the surge protector will filter out the PLC signal between it and the inverters.
    I tested different Envoy locations, I found the ONLY outlet with sufficent reception was an outlet right next to the main panel (3' cable). The outlet was installed to power the Verison FIOS box. Testing this location today and COMM looks real good, no inverters have dropped off line yet.
    I think my TED 1001 causes interferance as my signal levels go up when it is not installed. The TED uses PLC to talk between the monitor and sensor(s). Also, anyone using internet PLC is going to have huge issues (my assumption, no testing to back this up).
    drees wrote: »
    In my case, I found that even having the Envoy plugged into an outlet that also had a surge protector plugged into it was enough to cause intermittent communication issues with some inverters.


    The inspector comes back tomorrow. Fingers are crossed.
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  • tonystewart
    tonystewart Solar Expert Posts: 54 ✭✭
    #93
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Thank you for your informative updates, they are much appreciated
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #94
    Re: My 10.1KW System
    mr.radon wrote: »
    My Envoy came with a warning that you CANNOT plug it into a surge protector since the surge protector will filter out the PLC signal between it and the inverters.
    Yep, mine too. But even with it plugged into the same outlet as the surge protector (and NOT the surge protector itself) it would have difficulty communicating. Moving the surge protector to another outlet on the wall (same circuit breaker) fixed the problem.
    mr.radon wrote: »
    I tested different Envoy locations, I found the ONLY outlet with sufficent reception was an outlet right next to the main panel (3' cable). The outlet was installed to power the Verison FIOS box. Testing this location today and COMM looks real good, no inverters have dropped off line yet.
    Yeah, I imagine the closer the better. Worst case would require that you install a dedicated circuit off the subpanel for the Envoy.
    mr.radon wrote: »
    I think my TED 1001 causes interferance as my signal levels go up when it is not installed. The TED uses PLC to talk between the monitor and sensor(s). Also, anyone using internet PLC is going to have huge issues (my assumption, no testing to back this up).
    I wondered about this, too as I have considered getting a TED and also some PLC adapters to extend my home network.
    mr.radon wrote: »
    The inspector comes back tomorrow. Fingers are crossed.
    Good luck! I'm sure you'll have no issues.
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #95
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    My Envoy is about 350feet from the panels with full signal strength. The neutral wire from the inverters carries the information to the Envoy. As long as the Envoy and inverters have no transformer interruption between them the signal will pass without problem (in my experience).

    Ralph
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #96
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Today's production numbers, what to believe? :confused:

    TED 1001 = 42.5kWhr
    Envoy = 28.6kWhr

    Will wait till I have the Netmeter installed. I'm believing the Envoy for now, as it is closer to what I think I should be making for this time of the year.
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #97
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Looks like the Enphase numbers are more accurate to me. Or at least, they seem to match up better with what I'd expect, too. And even then Enphase numbers tend to be a few percent high since they are measured at the inverter.

    Does the TED need calibrating?
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  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
    #98
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    There is big difference in total energy output numbers between south facing panels and the rest. Looks like your performance efficiency is 70% right now compared to if all your panels were pointed south. So far your south facing panels generated on average 3.8 KWh each. Multiplied by 45 = 171 KWh if all were south facing. So far your total generation is 118.4 KWh. 118.4/171 = 69.24%. Or, 171/118.4 = 1.44 times. Your 28.6 KWh per day would be 28.6*1.44 = 41.2 KWh if all panels were pointed south.
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #99
    Re: My 10.1KW System
    AntronX wrote: »
    There is big difference in total energy output numbers between south facing panels and the rest.
    Definitely. But he clearly ran out of room on his south facing roof. Tilting panels south on the east/west roof surfaces would have added a lot of complexity to the racking. How much more and at what cost is the question - not to mention the aesthetic issues on the street side of the house.

    Performance will look a lot better in the summer thanks to the sun being high over head - worst case will be winter time with the east/west panels never getting close to direct sun.
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #100
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Actually you're going to need to disregard the production numbers as I had signal drop out and various arrays unpowered for testing.

    The cloud cover is worst in winter, so I make the least power by far in winter.

    The difference between what each azmuth makes is less in the summer (when I make the most) and wosrt in the winter (when I make the least). For example, normalized for 1KW, PV WATTS in:
    DEC says South = 23KWhr, East 11KWHR West 12KWhr. About 50% less.
    JUL says South = 148KWhr, East 129KWHR West 142KWhr. About 9% less.

    So the net effect on my system over a year is this (normalized for 1KW):
    South: 1053KWhr
    East: 832KWhr (21% less)
    West: 884KWhr (16% less)

    But to make things worse I have shading issues on the East in Winter and the West (south) array in winter. There is also one panel that has slight shading issues in witer from a gas vent pipe.

    From what I've seen (5 minute data for a full 24hour sunny day) is real close to what I expected. Google Sketch up is so darn good at simulating the shading issues I can't believe it is free software.

    My issue is that I did not expect the clamp on TED 1001 to be that far off from Enphase. Will soon find out who is wrong.
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #101
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    The county structural engineer came over yesterday and had a fun time inspecting the system. He signed the permit and said, "This is the best installation he has yet seen." I wasn't expecting this but it made me real happy. :D

    He told me about another project going on (just 12 panels). He found the installers had lag bolted to the roof but missed several rafters, the installer replaced the lag bolts with bolts and washers, they attached right to the sheathing. Some lag bolts were close, half the lag bolt was sticking out the side of the side of the rafter. No flashing, water leaking through the roof on inspection. He mentioned that few installers use flashing, preferring to just bolt straight to the roof.

    Anyhow, he asked if he could send him data after a years production. As far as homeowners go I have one of the larger systems in the county.

    Now I need to get the electrical inspector out here. They had a few days off for training.

    I called the PUD (utility) they will come by Wednesday to install the Netmeter, but I need to fax the signed permits first.

    Light at the end of the tunnel is getting very bright.

    Oh, today's production numbers are with heavy clouds and rain, just in case anyone is interested to see how rainy Seattle fairs.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #102
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Congratulations, one big hurdle done. I have been watching your progress and am well impressed by your attention to detail.

    I had the inspectors tell me about the same thing, the biggest residential install they had seen in a very large city. In fact it presented new challenges for them on the electrical inspection and for me on the service entrance costs.
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  • jcgee88
    jcgee88 Solar Expert Posts: 154 ✭✭
    #103
    Re: My 10.1KW System
    mr.radon wrote: »
    Light at the end of the tunnel is getting very bright.

    I am wondering if you could help us compare cost of
    DIY on a large scale project vs having a contractor do
    the work.

    Do you have a total accounting for the material cost and
    number of manhours put into the project?

    Is any of that eligible for the Federal Tax credit and/or
    state/local/PUD rebate?

    An acquantance just put in a 10kw system and his
    before-incentives cost was $72K. [I think his price
    was a bit high, but his cost does give a data point as to
    what a professionally installed 10kw system can cost.
    His cost also is being heavily offset by Fed Tax Credit,
    NJ state rebate, and SREC sales.]

    John
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #104
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Saved every bill. Yes the federal tax credit applies to DIY.
    I'll post the total, but my best guess right now is 38K (plus or minus 2K). I know I'm under $4/W. (with enphase!) No sales tax. WA has a sales tax exemption on solar power systems.
    Snohomish PUD offers a small Solar credit but only if you use one of their approved contractors. I talked to one or two on the phone that were on the "Solar Express" list, they were electrical contractors that knew nothing about solar systems. How they got on the approved list is beyond me. Probably the same contractor that attached rack hardpoints directly to sheathing...

    We had a lot of rain and clouds today, I still made 10kWh!

    Tomorrow L&I comes back!
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #105
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Thanks for the update - yes, even on rainy days you'll get a decent amount of generation as long as the clouds aren't too dark - especially if it lightens up for an hour or two in the middle of the day.

    Just a tip: You can put the link to the Enlighten monitoring in your signature - will make it easy for others to find your most recent production numbers.

    Good luck with the inspection today - but I don't think you'll need it. :D
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #106
    Re: My 10.1KW System
    drees wrote: »
    Just a tip: You can put the link to the Enlighten monitoring in your signature - will make it easy for others to find your most recent production numbers.
    Great suggestion...

    Thanks for the help on this board, really likes having a sounding board for questions and ideas, plus the reality check. ;)

    From L&I:
    10/25/2010 Service,Altered,Underground,240V,<=100A AC - Approved Complete interactive photovoltaic meter and panel

    Looks like I got the signatures, now I need PUD to come on out. :D:D:D:D
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #107
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Snohomish County PUD came out to install the meters and said I need TWO more labels. (on top of the five big ones already there)
    My PUD meter box needs, "NET".
    My Production (netmeter) needs, "PRODUCTION"

    Maybe tomorrow is the day.

    They also said to flip all the breakers ON and leave the disconnect OFF so they can make sure the system is not providing power when power is disconnected.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #108
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Yeah had to do the dance with the labeling too, but my contractor had a label cutter in the truck, so they did it in the spot and they made them pop rivet them all as well.
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #109
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Alright, I paid my last bill (fee) for the system and added up all the bills (and returns).
    And the grand total is: $35,000.16. How weird is that? I still need to figure out how to get the sales tax back from WA that I paid at Lowes.
    How much a contractor would charge, I have no idea...I never asked someone to quote me a price. Actually I have yet to ever hire someone to do work for me, be it on my house or on my car(s).

    Some of the big ticket items:
    REC225PE-US $507.89 45 $22,855.14
    Enphase Mirco Inverter $150.83 45 $6,787.53
    3" standoff w/ one flange conn $16.52 112 $1,850.23
    Beam, 100 Series 144"-Mill Finish, 2.5" Beam 144" MILL $45.00 27 $1,215.00
    Oatey 12920 Flashing $3.85 117 $450.45
    Envoy $263.36 1 $263.36
    6 Solid Bare Copper 315 feet $0.61 315 $192.15
    250' 10-3 ROMEX wire $168.00 1 $168.00
    WEEB 6.7 Ground Lug $5.34 26 $138.84
    Splice kit w/grounding $5.21 26 $135.45
    Permit, Mechanical $128.75 1 $128.75

    I installed the labels that the PUD wanted, now they told me to cool my heels they can't come out for a few more days. Frustrating...
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #110
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Nice - $3.45 / watt installed - of course, labor was free. :)

    Mine came out to $4.32 / watt - prices weren't too different - your panels+inverters came out $0.16 / watt cheaper than mine primarily because you were able to use bigger panels. When I did my install earlier this year, my ET Solar 180W panels were the only ones I could find in the low $2 / watt range. Everything else was around $3 / watt. I would have much preferred to have installed 200+W panels, ideally in the 220-230W range.

    The rest of your savings appeared to come from economies of scale.
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #111
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Latest picture for the PUD. My neighbors are asking if he system is really so dangerous as all the red labels seem to indicate.

    sIMG_1155.jpg

    I told them if gas were discovered today, there would be no way we would have self serve gas stations.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #112
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    "My neighbors are asking if he system is really so dangerous as all the red labels seem to indicate."
    "I told them if gas were discovered today, there would be no way we would have self serve gas stations."

    really they are just covering their butts in their disclaimer like warnings and makes as much sense as pennsylvania posting roadsigns that say bump.:roll:
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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #113
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    40 years back I was in Spokane, WA headed to Missoula, Montana - someone told me to watch for the signs 'break in the road' and slow down.

    I did, fortunately, they really meant break in the road! That was winter damage to the freeway and it was really rough.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #114
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    i'm not saying signs like that are totally unwarranted as all it takes is to avert 1 accident to be justified, but for the most part it is overkill. the bumps here are usually transitions in the road of a few inches that rather than laying a bit of asphalt down to smooth it, they instead put up a sign so they won't be liable. meanwhile we have potholes and patched roads (patch upon patch upon patch etc.) that are far worse than a simple transition that they fail to address even with a sign. go figure.:confused:
    would you put up a sign if your sidewalk developed a slight crack in it or if you're in a wintry area that raised surfaces ice over before the rest of the road surface? i like the ones we have that say watch for falling rock. you get the idea that they are covering their butts with warnings. no wonder they don't have one saying do not touch with bare hands or where shoes when in the box or even do not get wet. see we can keep going with the warnings.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #115
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Yeah it does look a bit overkill, but kissing a little arse goes a long way the the utility and inspectors.
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #116
    Re: My 10.1KW System
    mr.radon wrote: »
    Latest picture for the PUD. My neighbors are asking if he system is really so dangerous as all the red labels seem to indicate.
    Heh, you should see the huge sign I have for my system. It's the size of a sheet of paper with a line diagram of my house, street, location of PV panels and disconnect.

    Your NET / PRODUCTION signs do seem to be pretty big, though! Certainly won't miss them.

    I wonder how long it will take utilities to eliminate the lockable disconnect. It's not like any UL certified inverters will be accidentally generating power if the grid is down - and they could just pull the meter if they are worried about it. Only utility I know of is PG&E in northern California that does not require one. Sure would have simplified my wiring and eliminated another box on my wall.
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  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    #117
    Re: My 10.1KW System
    drees wrote: »
    I wonder how long it will take utilities to eliminate the lockable disconnect. It's not like any UL certified inverters will be accidentally generating power if the grid is down

    From their point of view. That electronics do fail, when it does, that mechanical switch is what protects them.
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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #118
    Re: My 10.1KW System
    n3qik wrote: »
    From their point of view. That electronics do fail, when it does, that mechanical switch is what protects them.

    I doubt that kind of failure is possible. I have heard, directly from a utility person, that the lockable disconnect is so they can lock you out if you don't have permission to be grid-tied. Where I work about 1/2 the people have a utility that requires a separate disconnect and about 1/2 don't - the switch on the inverter is sufficient.
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #119
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Snohomish County PUD only requires a AC Disc. SW if the system is greater then 10KW. I'm at 10.125KW. Hence I got a disc SW.

    I had the PUD over today and found out I wired the Production meter socket backwards. Should be on-line tomorrow. Took then 7 working days from the time I asked for the meter to be installed till the arrived to do it. I really hope they show up tomorrow and not in 7 days.

    With 60% of PV systems installed in Germany that allows 1000VDC taken off the roof without grounding and no DC disc. switch says something about how backward we are in the US.
    But then again I can drive my Z06 220mph legally on the autobahn, and well in the US that is considered dangerous. (even though I open it up once in awhile) But I do admit it is cheaper to fill that car's gas tank in the US.
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  • mr.radon
    mr.radon Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #120
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Snohomish County PUD came over and installed the meters at 3PM!

    I'm officially on line!
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #121
    Re: My 10.1KW System

    Congrats! Seems like it takes forever to get it done, but so satisfying once it is. :D
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