Professor says Global Warming a Scam

13

Comments

  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    People posting on climate change generally seem to believe that they have some 'special insight' into the whole thing and if everyone else could just understand as well as they do that all would agree with their point of view.

    In reality, 99% plus of those posting have only the vaguest idea of the entire thing (as Bill was pointing out) and most misunderstand much if not all of the topic.

    When top flight climate scientists can't even to agree among themselves it seems a bit over the top for the lay person to believe they understand it all.

    The biggest names in both pro and con camps are loaded with attention seekers that really add nothing to the entire discussion but like to flap their jaws.
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Don't forget about the amount of lead that removed from the environment as well.

    Let's not forget that science is not infallible and sometimes the unforeseen can cause damage.

    MTBE

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CC8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fncseonline.org%2Fnle%2Fcrsreports%2F06may%2FRL32787.pdf&rct=j&q=mtbe%20in%20gasoline&ei=mI68TPfiJ466sQPlyYHsDg&usg=AFQjCNHlW0e6XFgGaNQYdtyLf5LDc4K6tQ&cad=rja
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,038 admin
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    If catalytic converters are so cheap now, I don't know why so many people in our area have had their converters sawed of with battery powered reciprocating saws when parked on their driveways and streets.

    Somebody is getting more than a few bucks at the scrap yards. And they are not cheap to replace.

    I am not saying that cat converters and lead free gas is a bad thing--but there are significant costs with all of these solutions.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    russ wrote: »
    People posting on climate change generally seem to believe that they have some 'special insight' into the whole thing and if everyone else could just understand as well as they do that all would agree with their point of view.

    In reality, 99% plus of those posting have only the vaguest idea of the entire thing (as Bill was pointing out) and most misunderstand much if not all of the topic.

    When top flight climate scientists can't even to agree among themselves it seems a bit over the top for the lay person to believe they understand it all.

    The biggest names in both pro and con camps are loaded with attention seekers that really add nothing to the entire discussion but like to flap their jaws.

    You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. Over the years, the vast majority of climate scientists (somewhere north of 80% the last time I looked) believed that human caused climate change is happening, and is happening largely as a result of CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions. Additionally, a majority of other scientists in all fields believe that this is happening, ranging from a high of climate scientists to a low of petroleum geologists. Personally, I will trust the opinion of those who are working int he field, (many of who have been for decades) over some talking head on TV or some Politico who doesn't know his head from hole in the ground.

    All this said, this thread is illustrating why I didn't want this kind of discussion to infect this forum, as I think it can only lead to anger, mistrust etc, from people we might otherwise respect.

    I certainly plead guilty to participating in making that happen, but as you can see, this is something that I personally think is quite important, and I don't believe that some misinformation should go unchallenged from any quarter.

    Thank you,

    Tony

    PS It would please me greatly if we could just lock this thread and move on, as every one (including me) is tempted to have the last word!
  • dreesdrees Solar Expert Posts: 481 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    Don't forget that besides any climate changes that will occur from AGW, but also ocean acidification which is already affecting the growth rates of oceanic calcifying organisms. These types of effects could affect the entire ecosystem both in the oceans and on land.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    nsaspook wrote: »

    Because I my sat connection issues, I couldn't find anything on your link except the first page. Are you trying to argue that removing lead from Gasoline had "unforeseen damage"?
  • dreesdrees Solar Expert Posts: 481 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    icarus wrote: »
    Because I my sat connection issues, I couldn't find anything on your link except the first page. Are you trying to argue that removing lead from Gasoline had "unforeseen damage"?
    No, he's talking about MTBE which was introduced as an additive to reduce emissions from burning gasoline, which also had the side effect of being very good at polluting ground water sources from leaking underground gasoline tanks and has since been outlawed.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    Drees,


    Merci. Not something I am familiar with,

    Tony

    PS On the subject of gas tanks leaking,, I have heard stories that local retailers often lose a ton of gas before they begin to get a clue. One would think that at the cost of the product people would be more concerned with losing so much!
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    icarus wrote: »
    Drees,


    Merci. Not something I am familiar with,

    Tony

    PS On the subject of gas tanks leaking,, I have heard stories that local retailers often lose a ton of gas before they begin to get a clue. One would think that at the cost of the product people would be more concerned with losing so much!


    just a comment on your ps.
    stations are most likely aware of it, but often will think of what is cheaper, repair tank or lose a few $ in sales every day. those tanks are no small undertaking meaning a complete redo including the pumps and the island roofing.
    also, if they go digging then this attracts the attention of government officials that question the need and soon start sending fines for polluting the soil and then the costs rise more as they need to address the soil as well.
    for the record- even though i understand why they keep quiet about it, i do not agree with it.
  • russruss Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    @ Icarus - What I was trying to say in a nice way was that I have yet to read a post here that has any personal scientific knowledge connected with it.

    Reading about a professor that quit because of whatever reason we may well never know has not much to do with anything. That is like the reported comment by a BP boss in another forum - means little.

    Everything I know is what I have read on the web - not a deep education on the topic. Most likely 90% (or more) of what we read on the topic is slanted one way or the other.

    Personally, I believe in AGW - too much showing it to be true not to.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    Russ,

    That is why I am suggesting that people don't listen to me, or to other non scientists on the subject, but rather read the original source material in the peer reviewed journals! I confess as a non-scientist, I don't know my arse from a hole in the ground either. but I do read (occasionally) some original sources.

    My concern, quite frankly, is not for me since I am old enough that any real effect is going to be minimal in my life, but rather for future generations. I have long felt, (climate change issues not with standing) the as human populations have grown larger, they tend to use up resources a a rate that is not sustainable, and indeed they foul their nests! The historic evidence is all over the world., from the fertile crescent to the US south west. Over running fuel and water sources has been a human tradition for 1000's of years, and this is (IMHO) just the most recent/biggest example!
  • bryanlbryanl Solar Expert Posts: 175 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    re: "Over running fuel and water sources has been a human tradition for 1000's of years, and this is (IMHO) just the most recent/biggest example!"

    this is something to think about ... how can you overrun resources for such long periods of time yet not run out? That seems to beg the definition of over running.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    What happened to the ancient Babylonians? The Anasazi? The general consensus amongst anthropologists is that these civilizations (amongst others) over used their resources, primarily water and fuel wood.

    As many people who have written, as humans evolved from hunter gatherers to agrarians to urban, their impact on the environment gets progressively greater, largely due to increases in population. As societies get more affluent (that is either a leisure class, and or a governing class, the impact gets even greater as few members of that society are involved in the production of food, AND the increase wealth/leisure tends to lead to excess consumption.

    I repeat my assertion, the planet is not the infinite place we like to think it is. The impact of ~ 7,000,000,0000 people on the resources, everything from water and air, but food and fuel, and waste is not insignificant. Consider this, in my lifetime, the population of the US has more than doubled. In 1950 the US census revealed a resident population of 131 million. It is now estimated to be ~ 310 million.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

    Being the largest (on a per capita basis) consumers of resources in the history of the world, (by most any metric, food/water/fuel/other commodities etc) the impact of 179 million additional mouths to feed, houses to heat, cars to fuel, exhaust gases emitted etc.

    This on top of growth of the rest of the worlds population that has grown even faster, how one can consider any resources and any impact on the planet as negligible is beyond me.

    I am not advocating a return to the stone age. What I do advocate however is that people begin to understand how personal actions translate to larger issues around the planet. Small changes in behavior can have large impacts. Driving more efficient vehicles more efficiently, changing our home heating and cooling patterns etc can have a significant impact. Change begets change.

    Tony
  • timsjstimsjs Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    Are there any estimates, that you're aware of, about the tipping point of our planet and it being able to support our life? I agree, it is a finite source.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    Life is a relative term. The planet is ultimately very resilient and life will prevail and indeed humans will in all likely hood survive. The bigger question is how much change can certain species adapt to how fast, and on a human scale, what are the social costs likely to be and are they ones that we are prepared to pay.

    Assume some of the worse case scenarios. Are we prepared for the rise of sea levels that come with a 5 degreee C rise in a century? How many displaced people will there be int he world, and where are they going to move to? Are we prepared for desertification of places like the Canadian Prairies with the subsequent loss of agriculture production? (With more and more mouths to feed?) What about the less than worst case scenarios?

    Life will prevail without Polar Bears, but at some point there must be a tipping point where life as we have come to know it will be unsustainable. To answer the question more directly, I certainly don't know where that tipping point is. What my opinion is, is once you reach a level of CO2 concentrations that bring on enough warming to begin to significantly effect permafrost levels (not to mention ocean acidification!) then I think the tipping point of humans being able to do much about it will have past. The problem (IMHO) is that the changes come incrementally such that we don't tend to notice them. A odd weather event here and there, this year and last, and we can easily toss it off as the normal anomalies of the weather. It will only be when people begin to feel it in ways and places where they live, will people begin to realize that this is indeed real.

    Hotter (and muggier) than average summer this past summer over much of N. America? Weather or climate? Record heat in LA this fall? Weather or climate? Record flooding in Pakistan? Receding glaciers, lower average summer ice coverage in the high latitudes, record warm winter on the N. pacific rim in 2009-10. Each and every event can be explained away as "weather", and indeed there are people who can cite event for event other weather events that confirm anyones bias. The fact is, one has to look at world wide climate numbers, over long periods of time, and then the trend becomes very obvious.
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    icarus wrote: »
    Record heat in LA this fall?

    Really? I hadn't heard that.

    http://www.climatestations.com/los-angeles/

    1984 - September warmest calendar month in all history.
    2001 - Coolest year since 1975.
    2006 - Coolest March since 1962. Warmest July in all history.


    I've lived here off and on (mostly on) since 1970. This year hadn't struck me as particularly hot.

    http://www.climatestations.com/images/stories/los-angeles/LACVANN2.GIF
  • dreesdrees Solar Expert Posts: 481 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    dwh wrote: »
    Really? I hadn't heard that.
    He's probably referring to the record heat wave in SoCal in late Sept which broke the thermometer in LA. Other than that, it's been record cool temps out here on the California coast thanks to ocean currents which have kept the ocean water near the coast much cooler than normal.
  • nsaspooknsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    icarus wrote: »
    Because I my sat connection issues, I couldn't find anything on your link except the first page. Are you trying to argue that removing lead from Gasoline had "unforeseen damage"?

    The replacement additive "ethanol" due to its vast subsidies, has made the production of high fructose corn syrup much cheaper than cane sugar. Its use in food and drinks on a much larger scale has, many believe been the cause of the increase in obesity and diabetes in the US population.

    Ethanol production for fuel is absurdly inefficient and bad for the environment.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9647424

    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/09/07/ethanolnow/

    http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/pub/sep06/ethanol.htm
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    Drees has it right.

    My point is, any given weather event is just that,,, weather. Question is, when do weather events become climate?
  • dwhdwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    I recall worse in the 80's. One year...88 or 89 I think it was...I lived in Burbank and several days in a row when I got home from work at 5pm it was 110 or 111. After working out in the heat all day, when I got home I would immediately empty my pockets, take off boots and belt and jump in the pool clothes and all.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,038 admin
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    icarus wrote: »
    My point is, any given weather event is just that,,, weather. Question is, when do weather events become climate?

    I can link to various reconstructions--But those are going to be loaded with lots of controversy... Google some on your own... My guess--~50 to 200 years would be a rough minimum for a "climate" trend. (there appear to be some very sharp changes that when from one plateau to another in a 40-50 year time frame).

    However, there may have even been some abrupt climate changes on the order of 10 years to less than a year:
    We generally consider climate changes as taking place on the scale of hundreds or even thousands of years. However, since the early 1990s, a radical shift in the scientific understanding of Earth's climate history has occurred. We now know that that major regional and global climate shifts have occurred in just a few decades or even a single year. The most recent of these shifts occurred just 8200 years ago. If an abrupt climate change of similar magnitude happened today, it would have severe consequences for humans and natural ecosystems. Although scientists consider an abrupt climate change unlikely in the next 100 years, their understanding of the phenomena is still a work-in-progress, and Earth's history shows that such a change could be triggered in just a year or two by natural processes or by human-caused global warming with little warning.

    The National Academy of Sciences--the board of scientists established by Congress in 1863 to advise the federal government on scientific matters--compiled a comprehensive report in 2002 entitled, Abrupt Climate Change: Inevitable Surprises. The 244-page report, which contains over 500 references, was written by a team of 59 of the top researchers in climate, and represents the most authoritative source of information about abrupt climate change available. Most of the material that follows was taken from this report.
    ...
    Ocean and lake sediment data from places such as California, Venezuela, and Antarctica have confirmed that these sudden climate changes affected not just Greenland, but the entire world. During the past 110,000 years, there have been at least 20 such abrupt climate changes. Only one period of stable climate has existed during the past 110,000 years--the 11,000 years of modern climate (the "Holocene" era). "Normal" climate for Earth is the climate of sudden extreme jumps--like a light switch flicking on and off.
    As seen in Figure 1, the ice core record showed frequent sudden warmings and coolings of 15° F (8°C) or more. Many of these changes happened in less than 10 years. In one case 11,600 years ago, when Earth emerged from the final phase of the most recent ice age (an event called the Younger Dryas), the Greenland ice core data showed that a 15°F (8°C) warming occurred in less than a decade, accompanied by a doubling of snow accumulation in 3 years. Most of this doubling occurred in a single year.
    My guess is that many of the above are "regional" changes (i.e., Europe going from hot to cold) due to ocean current changes rather than the whole earth dropping 15F.
    Conclusion

    The historical records shows us that abrupt climate change is not only possible--it is the normal state of affairs. The present warm, stable climate is a rare anomaly. It behooves us to learn as much as we can about the climate system so that we may be able to predict when the next abrupt shift in climate will come. Until we know better when this might happen, it would be wise to stop pouring so much carbon dioxide into the air. While it currently appears that an abrupt shut down of the MOC and subsequent abrupt climate change event are not likely this century, we need to know more. In the words of Dr. Wally Broecker, "the climate system is an angry beast, and we are poking it."
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bryanlbryanl Solar Expert Posts: 175 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    re: "That is why I am suggesting that people don't listen to me, or to other non scientists on the subject, but rather read the original source material in the peer reviewed journals!"

    The thing is, most of this discussion has very little to do with science and can be evaluated on other grounds.

    But, if you do want to look at the science, you don't need to delve very deep. Just take a look at the fundamental areas of measurement of weather and the matters of accuracy and precision in measuring atmospheric properties at a single point much less planet wide. Watch the weather forecasts to get a handle on how weather and climate are understood and the accuracy that can be mustered. -- you, too, can do your own atmospheric science studies as an avocation and many do just that from the backyard weather stations to some rather sophisticated collection and analysis.

    Much of this discussion is ideological: there is the zero sum game idea; envy of the Americans with the accompanying socialist thesis; the tipping point thesis; resource worries; planet exhaustion worries; expressions of belief not based on measure -- it doesn't appear that there is much of an inspection of what is right there in front of everyone much less the implications and logical consistency in the views expressed.

    Rather than trying to delve into minutia and arcania in scientific 'peer reviewed' journals (as if 'peer review' has much of a bearing on quality, but that is another ongoing discussion in other circles), take a look at what we have on the table in this discussion. Examine the views expressed for consistency, implications, reliability against well known history, possible alternatives, and risk and benefit.

    The OP was about behavior and what it said about the science of those expressing it. That doesn't require a lot of expertise or research. It does require some objectivity and integrity and comparison to established referents. The ability to do that is an ability to listen and learn and that is something we can all use to our personal benefit.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    "My guess is that many of the above are "regional" changes (i.e., Europe going from hot to cold) due to ocean current changes rather than the whole earth dropping 15F."

    I am certainly not suggesting that the "whole earth drops (or rises) 15F", but you hit on one of the biggest climate issues. That being ocean currents. The drivers of the Gulf stream/El Nino/La Nina etc are likely very much effected by changes in sea water temps.

    Byani,

    Will chose to disagree with you on many counts. The fact that I have kept "weather records" for nearly 50 year, (which do show warmer summers, more humidity, and shorter, warmer winters on average) doesn't mean much. It is only when my accounts, and those of others are collated into some sort of larger scale study do climate trends become clearer.

    I agree however that people tend to approach it as a zero sum game, and I don't think it should be. The problems are universal, and the effects will be so, the solutions indeed will have to be as well.

    As to risk and benefit,, I have spoken at length about the benefits of changing our energy consumption (and other habits). I believe that while the risk may be small (at least for the worst case projections, the consequences of being wrong are potentially catastrophic, ergo erring on the side of caution is the only solution that matters to the future of my Grandchildren IMHO.

    Just as the chance of a Nuke plant melt down is quite small, we have designed systems to mitigate the risk because we know the consequences are great.

    Tony
  • timsjstimsjs Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    @Russ - In reguards to your personal belief in"AGW", what does the "A" stand for? My question is: Is Global Warming significantly impacted by man's activity or is it cyclic? If anyone can answer this, where is the scientific data to back the answer up?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,038 admin
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    Well, global/regional warming and cooling is cyclic my earlier link. And from that link the last 8,500 years have been abnormally stable.

    From the link, one degree change over 100 years is not even an issue compared to 15 degree climate changes over one to ten years.

    My take a way question would be can humans change ocean currents. And if the answer is yes, can we change the ocean currents back if they flip as they have uncounted times over the eons before?

    That, IMHO, is a separate question from pollution and available resources.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    "My take a way question would be can humans change ocean currents."

    Personally, I would ask the question differently. That is can human events/activities lead to changes in ocean currents over time. It is really a semantic difference, but the net result is the same.

    It reminds me of the fable where the giant dams the families creek and ergo their water supply. The giant says, "tell you what,, you can have all the water you can get out from behind the dam with a spoon."

    The kids thinks about it for a minute and says, "OK", and proceeds to dig a hole in the dam with the spoon, resulting in water flowing over and eventually eroding the dam, restoring his families water.

    Did he remove the water with a spoon? Not strictly speaking. Can humans stand up and change the Gulf stream? No. But is it possible that accelerated melting of Greenland's ice sheets and other Northern Polar ice could cause an alteration of the Gulf stream? It sure sounds plausible to me, and I believe (can't cite however) I have read some studies to indicate it is very plausible. I think I have also read that counter intuitively, that may lead to cooler temps in Northern Europe and the UK. (Not unlike last winter where there was blather all over the denial community saying, see how much snow there is in the UK, there can't possibly be global warming,,, illustrating only how ill informed some people are! (I am not saying that last winters UK snow IS evidence, but to suggest that it COULDN'T be evidence is naive.

    Tony

    PS A couple of quick links:

    http://scitizen.com/climate-change/changes-in-the-gulf-stream-correlates-with-changes-in-climate_a-13-1681.html

    http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=12455&tid=282&cid=9986
  • dreesdrees Solar Expert Posts: 481 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    timsjs wrote: »
    @Russ - In reguards to your personal belief in"AGW", what does the "A" stand for? My question is: Is Global Warming significantly impacted by man's activity or is it cyclic? If anyone can answer this, where is the scientific data to back the answer up?
    At a basic level, the effects of adding CO2 to the atmosphere are well understood. Scientists have confirmed with satellites that less heat is escaping from the planet corresponding to the rise in CO2 levels.

    The recent warming of the globe can only be explained by AGW - there are no known natural forces which could be responsible for it.

    If you have a theory that would attribute natural causes to recent warming - then let's hear it.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,038 admin
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    Solar isolation?

    Mars ice pack has been reducing recently too:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

    Are they related. Don't have a clue. Measuring the average temperature of the earth is full of pit falls. Doing it on another planet is another level of complexity.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • dreesdrees Solar Expert Posts: 481 ✭✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam
    BB. wrote: »
    Mars ice pack has been reducing recently too:
    A bit of ice pack melting on a planet with an entirely different atmosphere doesn't indicate anything. Even then, most scientists don't even think that the study you refer to offers any proof that there is long term warming on Mars due to flaws in the data used.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-on-mars-intermediate.htm
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Professor says Global Warming a Scam

    For those wonder whether or not mankind can effect the weather, here's some historic reading for you:

    The year without a Summer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer
    Now, that was volcanic ash doing the dirty work, but particulate matter from industry could do the same thing. Don't think so? Then read this one:
    Linfen, China: http://digg.com/news/science/Linfen_China_The_Dirtiest_City_on_Earth_Video

    Anyone familiar with Los Angeles' smog should understand that. It's not the only city to suffer so either. How do you think Edinburgh, Scotland got the nickname "Auld Reekie"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh

    During the industrial revolution in Great Britain, so many trees were cut down and burned for the production of iron and coke it was necessary to create the Crown Reforestation Program to replant areas that had been utterly denuded.

    Whereas these are microclimate examples, it is not too far-fetched to extrapolate the possibility of it happening on a larger, even global scale.

    Humans have brought about the destruction of many plant and animal species, so clearly we can have an effect on our environment - intentional or not. The greater the population, the greater the effect. The more wanton and careless the population, the greater the effect. China once sent forth its people with swatters to kill all the flies. They made such a success of it that certain bird populations dropped noticeably.

    What would those who deny the existence of even the possibility of climate change/global warming have us do? Continue to waste vast quantities of energy and coat the world in pollution because it's easier (and more profitable for some) than behaving in a reasonable, responsible manner?

    In nearby Cache Creek there's a new mountain rising. It's made of garbage from the Vancouver area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_Creek_landfill
    Want one in your back yard?
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