Need new water heater

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #32
    Re: Need new water heater

    When I went with a condensing force air furnace (90+% efficient)--They simply did everything with PVC (rated for stack use). Stack has to have a 1/4" per foot minimum rise to allow condensate (combustion water from the walls of the PVC stack) and it runs back to the furnace and down to a sump pump (in my case) to pump the water out.

    Pretty neat... No steam visible from the end of stack on a cool day (I don't get much freezing weather--so I don't know if I will see steam on a really cold day or not).

    I am not sure a condensing hot water heater rated for use with PVC stack is worth the money at this point in time (if there is even one out there yet).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • LucMan
    LucMan Solar Expert Posts: 223 ✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Need new water heater
    niel wrote: »
    lucman,

    general,
    i am aware of cleaning them out every year and the insulation, but i know this thing will not last too much longer as sometimes it sounds like a boiling pot of water with a clanking lid and they aren't supposed to be this noisy. .:grr

    That noise comes from mineral or sediment buildup in the tank.



    I install the Bradford White line of water heaters. Look at their features.
    http://www.bradfordwhite.com/profeatures.asp


    This is a top of the line Super Stor
    http://www.htproducts.com/phoenix.html
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #34
    Re: Need new water heater

    I been having my own run of bad water heaters... I have to replace one for a friend today. This one is a ~25+ year old electric water heater. No maintenance at all.

    It may be leaking, but the problem at the moment is that the heater is full of sediment (we also get a weird, almost gel looking stuff) that forms around the electric elements and breaks off creating a "slush" in the tank. I try draining the tank but there is so much, it completely blocked the tank drain. And the slush is preventing the thermostat from working correctly (kicked off the over-temp limit).

    I like mike90045's idea of replacing with a full flow ball (or gate) valve... Have to think about that. This installation is in an apartment, so I don't think having the tenets draining the water heaters is very practical (and will end up with a lake under the building).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #35
    Re: Need new water heater
    LucMan wrote: »
    That noise comes from mineral or sediment buildup in the tank.



    I install the Bradford White line of water heaters. Look at their features.
    http://www.bradfordwhite.com/profeatures.asp


    This is a top of the line Super Stor
    http://www.htproducts.com/phoenix.html

    lucman,
    the bw is a bit too much on the tall size, but that phoenix looks interesting. i was hoping to see a better warranty though. smallest size is 55 gallons and i really only need about 40 gallons.

    sediment huh. makes sense because of the number of water main breaks we've been seeing over the past few years. every time a break happens it sends sediments into the line. i bought a filter for my water, but i never installed it because it warns of sending high pressure through it. yes, i have a regulator, but that wonderful water company likes to blow out the sediments from their lines by running high pressures. it blows right through my regulator. i don't remember exactly the pressure limit the state allows, but as i recall what was measured was just a tad below that point even though in previous years they were guilty of even higher pressures. i believe i saw about 139psi if my memory serves correctly and in my research i have not found any regulators that will withstand these pressures so the filter has remained uninstalled. i often new when they did it because every pipe in the house made a noise. i did call the water company though with a stern warning last year that if these practices continue and i sustain damages to my appliances that they will be paying for them. i believe i only saw it happen one time after that, but the pressures are still too high for normal regulators or my filter to endure. this did destroy at least one of my regulators and probably did in my old weil-mclain furnace boiler before i was aware of what was going on.
    thought of those little safety valves like those on the water heater, but when they pop they are destroyed and need replaced and yes i replaced a few of them in the past and i wondered why it kept leaking on the old wmc boiler even though i kept replacing them periodically.
    don't ever assume a utility is doing things in your interest as i have found both the electric company and the water company doing things here that can destroy appliances in a home or business and it can be quite dangerous depending on the items involved.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #36
    Re: Need new water heater
    techntrek wrote: »
    Until the minerals in the water clog the tubes in the tankless. I wanted a tankless badly a few years ago, have propane and 400 amp service available so I could have gone either way. Until I read about people having problems in just a year or two and decided to keep the tank.


    I have been using a tankless for nearly 20 years with out issue of minerals clogging up the water paths. (We have very naturally soft water). That said, I suspect that a tankless might calcify at about the same rate at a tank type, but there are some things that one can do to mitigate it, including sacrificial anodes plumb in line.

    As for the up front cost Neil, a good tankless will cost more than a tank type, but to my way of thinking it is worth it. Endless hot water, low fuel costs, and a perfect fit for solar pre-heat. That said, one big cost with most tankless installations is venting. Most tankless water heaters vent through high temp stainless steel vent systems that are very expensive, rather than dirt cheap "B" gas vent. That said, many vents can be made to direct vent out side walls in places that "B" vent can't be terminated.

    Tony
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #37
    Re: Need new water heater

    bb,
    25yrs?! things would never last that long around these parts. what was the original warranty period for it?
    yes, mike's idea is good right down to the 2 tanks. if i were to do something like that it'd probably be 2 smaller tanks, but this is still a large sum of $ we're talking here and twice as many things to go wrong given circumstances here.
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  • nvyseal
    nvyseal Solar Expert Posts: 108 ✭✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Need new water heater

    My sediments to you Niel ;) ,

    Im watching this thread, as i need to replace my tank too, although my hot water and cooking/heating bill generally runs me around 25.00 a month.(av/yr) I do have a 3/4 inch gas pipe leading to my heater, im not considering a tankless because i just can't justify the cost.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #39
    Re: Need new water heater

    Around 1982 Kenmore (Sears) electric 40 gallon with a ten year guarantee. It may not be leaking yet, but the floating sediment caused the element to overheat. Some water around the base, but may have been water out the temperature and pressure valve.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • LucMan
    LucMan Solar Expert Posts: 223 ✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: Need new water heater

    Niel,
    139# water pressure!
    Your faucets, & washing machine etc probably don't last very long either. Around here city pressure runs 80#. I would ask your water company or city to install a fully functional pressure reducing valve to bring it down to an acceptable pressure.
    Most water heater blowoffs are set at 125 or 150# that doesn't leave a lot of room for expansion if you have 130 + # water pressure.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #41
    Re: Need new water heater

    lucman,
    do understand that the pressure i listed is only when they are "blowing out their lines" and i even heard a recording saying exactly that once when i called to complain. i believe the pressure to normally be around what you stated and i bring that down with a regulator to about 55#. it may be temporary, but it does some damage.
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  • zeuspaul
    zeuspaul Solar Expert Posts: 59 ✭✭✭✭
    #42
    Re: Need new water heater
    i believe i saw about 139psi if my memory serves correctly and in my research i have not found any regulators that will withstand these pressures so the filter has remained uninstalled

    Water pressure to my house runs about 135 psi.

    McMaster Carr has a good selection of water pressure regulators.

    If the link doesn't get you there go to page 486 in their catalog.

    http://www.mcmaster.com/#water-pressure-regulators/=97gmwp
    Bronze Pressure Regulators—Plumbing-Code Rated
    Designed for water applications, these are CSA certified, approved by International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO), and meet American Society of Sanitation Engineers (ASSE) 1003 and City of Los Angeles Plumbing Standard. They have a bronze seal, an acetal piston, and Buna-N diaphragm. Max. inlet pressure is 400 psi.

    Zeuspaul
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #43
    Re: Need new water heater

    thanks zeuspaul as you gave me an idea of another source for the regulators in addition to the link you just gave me.

    general,
    i do have one question before i get another regulator. is it possible that my goofy hw tank is raising the pressures on the home side of the regulator? i don't have a pressure gauge on the utility side of the regulator, but i do have one on my side of things and is how i set the regulator output. this hw tank was also present when i had my weil-mclain boiler furnace. don't get me wrong here as i believe the utility did blow out my previous regulator, but i am now wondering if there may be an additional problem here.
    thoughts?
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  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    #44
    Re: Need new water heater

    Yes. When an pressure regulator or check valve is used. An expansion tank is needed at the hot water tank.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #45
    Re: Need new water heater

    If you have a regulator and possibly a check valve--It is possible for your hot water system to cause the water to expand and over pressure your home system. The T&P valve on the water heater will help for safety--But you may need a water pressure tank if you see your home's internal pressure increasing.

    One symptom you may see is when you first turn on a faucet--you notice the water comes out at higher than normal pressure for the first few seconds--then drops back to normal flow and pressure--Same symptom if you have a leaking pressure regulator from the street (I had that problem on my home).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #46
    Re: Need new water heater

    Neil, Have you considered one of those new GE Geo Spring water heaters? I just bought one tonight from Sears. They have a good sale that ends tomorrow oct 10.
    You can order it over the internet for 10% off thier $1599.00 price and they give another 10% that brings the price to $1299.00 + tax. And if you have a sears card you get 12 months without interest. Also Penn Power gives you a $300.00 rebate. And I will also get the 30% off my federal income tax. I originally bought a Tagaki nat gas water heater that is unused so will give someone a good deal on it. I live in a doublewide and don,t want to put another hole thru my roof for the venting. model is t-KD20. :Dsolarvic:D
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #47
    Re: Need new water heater

    sorry solarvic as i won't go electric. that imo is a step backward. the rebates are statewide, but they have the bar so high that most rebates are for on demand wh getting it. even though the nat gas in general seems less efficient to this state, it is cheaper to use than electric no matter their efficiency ratings the electrics get. resistance heating is an obvious no no for solar, but it's not so great from the grid either and i am willing to say circumstances may dictate an electric in some occasions.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #48
    Re: Need new water heater

    ok, so i guess i do have a problem. do you guys think i should have a 1 way check valve isolating the cold input to the wh and place the expansion tank on the hot side or would it be better on the cold side?
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  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    #49
    Re: Need new water heater

    Here, everyone has a check valve at their main by the meter. Water company did this about 10 years ago. They told us we needed to do the expansion tank at that time.

    I think the check valve is part of the new electronic meter. They did that at the same time.


    I would ask the water company if the meter as a check valve. It may be needed as per code.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #50
    Re: Need new water heater

    You don't need to add a check valve. I believe newer codes/construction add them to prevent back-flow from the home polluting the city water system.

    The expansion tank should be added to the cold water side (you don't want hot water entering the tank if you can avoid it).

    Here is one website that has links to a couple volume/tank sizing calculators.

    One interesting question for me... I thought that the tanks should be installed with the "nipple" down and tank above the water line. But I have also seen many installation photos with the tank hanging below the pipe. I wonder which is correct (nipple down should help prevent debris from entering the tank and damaging the air bladder).

    Make sure you get a tank for a Potable water system and not one for a non-potable water system (boiler based closed hydronic heating, radiant floor heating, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #51
    Re: Need new water heater
    niel wrote: »
    sorry solarvic as i won't go electric. that imo is a step backward. the rebates are statewide, but they have the bar so high that most rebates are for on demand wh getting it. even though the nat gas in general seems less efficient to this state, it is cheaper to use than electric no matter their efficiency ratings the electrics get. resistance heating is an obvious no no for solar, but it's not so great from the grid either and i am willing to say circumstances may dictate an electric in some occasions.

    I am not getting rebate from the state. The $300 rebate comes from the power co. Also I have a gas well but I am worrying that it is about ready to cease production. I was making excess power some months and think if I go to this waterheater and get my gas clothes dryer connected that I should be preety balanced with my generating capacity. So it will probably work for me. I already have an electric waterheater so this should be a good update for me in efiency. if you are interested in a tankless on demand gas water heater, send me a message and I will make you an offer on the one I bought that I am not going to use now.
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  • LucMan
    LucMan Solar Expert Posts: 223 ✭✭✭
    #52
    Re: Need new water heater

    BB,
    As long as the expansion tank is vertical that is the proper mounting, doesn't matter if the fitting is up or down.



    For you guys looking at electric, indirect , or solar water heaters, here is the ultimate WH, 1/3 degree per hr stand by loss and almost indestructible. Only problem is they are extremely heavy.

    http://www.vaughncorp.com/html/products.html

    Our local Utility company used to lease the 120 gal. electric models back in the late 70's. They were on a timer that would allow them to operate after midnight, supplying sufficient HW for the next day. There are still some out there functioning, never heard of one leaking. I have changed the elements on a few that's all.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #53
    Re: Need new water heater

    bb and n3qik,
    i was thinking of something to prevent the pressures from the hw tank backflowing into the rest of the house's cold water piping. i do upon occasion put the cold water on and there's a point the water goes warmer and then back to cold and i think the hw is backflowing into the cold to possibly equalize the pressure. this was my reasoning for stopping backflow at the cold water t tap going to the hw tank.
    i am beginning to think i may need to rework the plumbing to fit all of this. at present the hw is tapped off of a cold water line with a t and it drops into a ball valve along with the screwed together pipes and then a small straight run of a bit over a foot down before it was screwed into the hw tank. between a backflow check valve, the ball valve, the expansion tank, and any height from taller hw tanks this would be warranted. even leaving out a check valve it would need redone to fit the expansion tank and should be placed at the hw tank side of the ball valve. off course the expansion tank is only a tap off of a t is it not and can run off to one side?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #54
    Re: Need new water heater

    It is possible that your water heater will need 1-2 gallon of expansion tank room... I don't know if that is enough to actually back-feed hot water into the cold water system--I guess it is possible.

    The expansion tank at the cold water side of the heater will stop water from going back into the rest of your cold water piping (it should go into the expansion tank).

    From this mfg. (PDF), they say that the expansion tank must be placed on the cold water side of the heater. Although the expansion take is rated to 200F...

    Otherwise, do you have any place where hot+cold water is connected together and hot water can back flow into the cold water system? Perhaps a tempering valve at the water heater?

    In the attached picture, there are two steel 3/4" pipe nipples--These have a ball (and spring?) in them to stop thermal mixing (at least in the hot side--the pink one).

    The ones that come with the water heater are steel and plastic lined--but don't have the check valve in them. Our local Home Depot sells these check valve nipples in the water heater installation parts section of the store.

    -Bill

    PS: Here is a suggested addition to a water heater to help flush sediment. It includes the 3/4" ball valve and a curved dip tube to help mix-up the sediment at the base of the water heater.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #55
    Re: Need new water heater

    there is only one place the hot can mix with the cold and that's at the cold water tap for the hw tank. hot water is backflowing through about 2ft of pipe before it hits the cold water line and it is teed. it is in the kitchen faucet that i detected the bump in temp on the cold water tap.
    tee arrangement as follows:
    >cold in >
    out to hw tank
    >
    out to kitchen faucet

    are those the pics of check valves to prevent backflow? i don't see the need for one on both input and output as i believe input is fine, but placed there at the tank input the expansion tank cannot function as it would be blocking any back pressure reaching the expansion tank.
    i also figure that even though i'd probably only need the smallest size expansion tank due to the regulator that i would go up one to account for utility normal pressures. a utility blowout of the lines going through the regulator could damage even that though, but at that point i think i'd sue them for damages.:roll: i know get a better regulator.:cool: it would seem i have a bit of work to do and i really do want to filter my water as i get tired of seeing the water discolored every time there's a main break. the sediment is killing things for me and furnaces and hw tanks are just too darn expensive to let dirty water destroy them. can't sue the utility because they will claim acts of god, but let's face it it is their lack of maintaining or upgrading their lines that causes this. sure i can prove that.(sarcasm)
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #56
    Re: Need new water heater

    Time was when no one bothered with check valves on water heaters. It's just about SOP now.

    You could put a simple RainFresh whole-house sediment filter on. Less than $50, and can take down to 5 microns if needed.

    Poor Niel! He asks one simple question, gets 50+ posts, and still doesn't have an answer! :cry:

    :p
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #57
    Re: Need new water heater

    The check valve I showed is not a "real" back flow check valve... Just a very light weight version to stop water mixing on the hot water outlet. If you have pipes that go up from the water heater, you can get convective circulation where the hot water rises and the cool water sinks--keeping the hot water pipe "hot" with no hot water use (and obviously costing you fuel to keep the pipe hot).

    The water heater will come with plastic lined steel nipples and you would have to remove them and add the "heat trap" check valve nipples (don't remember if the cold water has a check in it or not).

    Marc, when you talk about water heater check valves--are you speaking of a "real" check valve in the cold water line, or these thermal block type check valves?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #58
    Re: Need new water heater
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Time was when no one bothered with check valves on water heaters. It's just about SOP now.

    You could put a simple RainFresh whole-house sediment filter on. Less than $50, and can take down to 5 microns if needed.

    Poor Niel! He asks one simple question, gets 50+ posts, and still doesn't have an answer! :cry:

    :p

    i'm not familiar with that filter and i do have a filter to put on, but i did not due to high occasional pressures. i do think a check valve would be good on the cold water inlet for not only stopping the backflow of the heated water, but any pressures beyond what is normal, even with an expansion tank, will be prevented from going to the rest of the house. (by then the wh will probably have already exploded:cry::p)

    poor niel? i don't mind the conversations on the matter as it only strengthens my knowledge on it all and helps me to make a decision for a course of action.

    solarvic,
    although i am not leaning to the on demand heater could you pm me with the make and model with specs and warranty info on the gas model you have along with the price you'd have in mind just so i can say i looked over all of my options here?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #59
    Re: Need new water heater

    Oh the fun of plumbing! :grr

    Bill; the anti-mixing valves are fine for a "one level" house with moderate water pressure. After that, everything goes wahoonie-shaped. Normally a "flap" check valve is used on the tank's intake because it doesn't restrict water flow much. That prevents the hot from going back out the in and usually will also stop most mixing after the tank. Usually. Otherwise adding in the post-tank valves can be done.

    But wait! There's more! :p

    Some argue for the use of plastic valves to provide a thermal break in conductivity. I say this is a waste, as you want to keep the pipes as hot as possible too. Thus pipe insulation. Even on PEX. Especially on PEX, as it radiates heat quite well.

    What the right set-up is depends on the house's water pressure, whether it's all on one level (supplying hot water from a basement heater to a second story changes things as opposed to a ranch house where everything is within 10' of height), and how many fixtures it feeds. Bleah. Even then it doesn't always work out right and you have to fiddle things. Too many elbows, for instance, restrict flow and change available pressure. Blasted hydraulics! :p

    Niel; the filter I mentioned works fine on well systems. City water can have ridiculously high working pressure (like 70 psi) and can vary more than a pump ever would. Especially if they "flush" the lines as you describe. Knocking down the input pressure is probably a good idea just for starters. All hot water heaters (even on-demand) should have a T/P valve on them to prevent the tank from over-pressurizing the system. You should check it twice a year, but nobody does because when you lift the little handle to flush it out, junk inevitably gets trapped in the valve and it spends the rest of its life leaking; drip, drip, drip.

    Why can't anything ever be simple, eh? :p
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #60
    Re: Need new water heater

    I am currently running (in 4 separate installations) a ELM LeBlanc Circa 1994. LeBanc was bought by Bosch. I run a large Paloma PH 24, that is a huge unit, ~300,000 btus if memory serves, it will deliver ~10 gpm at 100F rise! I also run 2 Paloma PH 6s which are perfect for one shower, delivering ~3 spm at 100F rise.

    I had a Paloma PH 12 in a grid tied rental house since ~1982 and replaced it with a Takagi TK JR electronic unit. The PH 12 worked as good as new after ~25 years when it was replaced. I sold it and I believe it is still going. The only thing I have ever done with any of them is replace the water diaphragm, not because it failed but because I thought I should.

    My neighbour runs a number of Bosches. I am not as big a fan, but they seem to work for him.
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  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    #61
    Re: Need new water heater

    I would see if the water company would supply a regulater. Then add the expansion tank as a must no matter what.
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