What can I do with just one solar panel?

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Hi all!!

I am so green to this whole "Going Green" idea. I have been thinking about it for quite some time and I have actually viewed several "Do It Yourself" or DIY Guides. The best one for me yet is the one I found at ......... deleted by niel for being attack site. This one did give me the places where I can find all of the tools I need to build a solar panel. But the problem that I'm having is knowing exactly what I will be able to run off this panel once I build it.

I have 36 1.8W 3.6Amp- 3"x 6" cells that I plan to run 3 rows of 12. How can I tell how many watts and volts this panel will expend? and what can I do with this amount of power?

I know I can not run the entire house of course. But can I run a couple light bulbs? computer? TV? I'm just looking for an idea of what this one little panel can do. And that's just the beginning of the questions that I have for implementing a green Dzine for my home.

Help anyone :),
DanLaw

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    Roughly, your panel should max out around 65 watts if everything is perfect... Otherwise, if it hits 80% of rated load (around 52 watts)--call yourself lucky.

    Assuming you are from somewhere around Atlanta Georgia, your "hours of noon-time equivalent sun" averages around (data from PV Watts website):
    [FONT=Fixedsys]1      3.86
    2      4.67
    3      5.21 
    4      6.17   
    5      5.95   
    6      5.81  
    7      5.82  
    8      5.83  
    9      5.21   
    10     5.51
    11     4.42  
    12     3.72 
    Year   5.18[/FONT]
    
    So, call 6 months of the year, around 5.5+ hours of sun per day. Figure end to end efficiency of an off-grid solar PV system (solar panel to charge controller to battery bank to AC Inverter) is around 52% efficient (yes, you will only get 1/2 the power from your panel out the AC outlet you probably expected).
    • 65 watt panel * 5.5 hours of sun * 0.52 = 185.9 WH per day (average)
    How much equipment can you run from that? Well, lets assume you have a 13 watt CFL and a 30 watt laptop computer:
    • 186 WH / (13+30 watt loads) = 4.3 hours average maximum
    You will also need a simple charge controller (4-7 amp 12 volt) and a battery (maybe a 40-80 amp*hour 12 volt deep cycle battery). And a small inverter (200 watt or so maximum--Smaller inverters will tend to be more efficient when driving small loads--A large inverter + load will not work very well on a smallish battery bank).

    In reality, your panel probably will not output 65 watts, or at least not very long. Also, your panel is probably constructed with plastic and possibly a wooden base. These components are flammable and should be mounted somewhere a possible fire would not harm anything (over a gravel/concrete pad, etc.).

    Also, building panels that will last 20+ years as a DIY project is not a reasonable expectation. Typically DIY solar PV panels may output power for a few months before the thermal cycling/moisture/flexing/etc. does them in.

    We have seen quite a few places like the Green Panel D. and have not heard anything very good about them.

    Solar panels have come down quite a bit in price (below $3 a watt for larger panels--and sometimes down to $1 per watt for thin film products). It is generally a better place to spend your money on commercial panels than to build your own.

    If you do build one--let us know how it works out for you (both short term and long term). It would be nice to hear of some success stories too.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    wow, talk about going about it backwards. sorry if this is hypercritical, but....... this is like saying i have built a battery so i now ask you what i can do with it. most have a goal in doing something and it seems yours is just that you are going green by building it. would you also go green by building an electric vehicle to leave it parked in a garage because you don't know where to go?:confused::roll:
  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    Neil, quit being so negative towards people who want to experiment.:roll:

    To DanLaw: Are you planning to make more panels? Got a picture?
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    Firefox says that link in the OP is a reported attack page.

    When you close the tab, it pops up a confuse/obfuscate message box designed to get people to click the wrong button.

    If nothing else, it's a link to a hype site that sells DIY and yet has a pic in the header that shows panels on a roof.
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    Thanks Antron,

    YEAH Neil!!! 8) I'm just experimenting. I do plan to build more than one panel, Antron. When I first started looking into solar power, the DIY info made it seem as though you could build a system to actually power your house yourself. The more I dive into it, I see that there is a load of technical "stuff" that you need to know just to get the simplest system to function properly.

    I also found that I will have to purchase some additional parts just to get power from the panel. Which brings me to my next question. BB Thank you SOMUCH for the great information: you said...
    You will also need a simple charge controller (4-7 amp 12 volt) and a battery (maybe a 40-80 amp*hour 12 volt deep cycle battery). And a small inverter (200 watt or so maximum-
    Got any idea where and round how much I'll be putting out for these additional units?

    Thanks...

    P.S. Back up off me NEIL!!! :P
  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    I read your post again and noticed you did not make a panel yet. Before you have high hopes of powering your entire house from DIY panels, make one and see how difficult it is without specialised tools. You will break a bunch of cells while learning how to handle and solder them, which will leave you with not enough cells for a panel capable of charging 12V battery. Another big problem is protecting cells from environment. Your encapsulation method will have to be optically clear, strong enough to withstand hail impact, be moisture proof, handle thermal expansions and contractions, allow for good solar cell heat dissipation, and last for 20 years.

    So, don't worry about powering anything but 5 Amp current meter for now. Use these cells to experiment with different soldering and encapsulation methods. Do some reading about how commercial panels are made, and try to emulate their assembly techniques. Keep in mind that non-UL rated commercially made panels can be bought for only $1.50 per watt. Pay close attention to Dollar per Watt costs for your components. It's becoming less of an incentive to DIY, unless you are researching ways to go into your own commectial production.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    i don't care if you make one, but at least have some sense of priority to it as i tried to say in my examples. consider me backed off. peace.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    You can certainly start out in our host's webstore: Northern Arizona Wind & Sun.

    For small/simple charge controllers--You can start with the Morning Star brand (they also happen to make very good MPPT higher end charge controllers too).

    A couple charge controller FAQ's to read up on:

    All About Charge Controllers
    Read this page about power tracking controllers

    A very simple 4.5 amp 12 volt charge controller can be had for $30. High end 60+ amp MPPT charge controllers--$530+...

    Some of the options may include Remote Temperature Sensor (very nice to have for optimum battery charging). Also, some of the MS charge controllers have landscape lighting timers in them.

    For a battery--AGM's are very nice (sealed, no mess, no water), but are about 2x as expensive and very sensitive to overcharging.

    A couple Battery FAQs:

    Deep Cycle Battery FAQ
    www.batteryfaq.org

    Simple flooded cell deep cycle batteries are cheap, fairly forgiving, and you can monitor the electrolyte for state of charge with a hydrometer. And you have to add water around once per month (too much water, you are over charging. Very little to no water--you may be under charging).

    Sizing your battery bank is one of the more important things to do when designing your system... It is the only part of the system that will age badly if not treated well (over discharged, over charged, too hot, not enough water, stored with less than full charge, too much load current, too much charging current, etc.).

    Ideally, we like to size the battery based on the loads--then size the inverter and solar panels to work well with the battery bank.

    Batteries should be charged around a 5-13% (of their 20 Hour capacity). And should not be subjected to a continous discharge of more than 13% or so... And the surge current should be no more than C/2.5 or 40% of the AH rating.

    That means, if you have a 65 watt solar panel, then the battery should be (assuming a 0.77 derating for panel "marketing numbers" and charge controller losses):
    • 65 watts * 0.77 derating * 1/14.5 batt charge voltage * 1/0.13 = 27 AH
    • 65 watts * 0.77 derating * 1/14.5 batt charge voltage * 1/0.05 = 70 AH
    If you wanted to get a 300 watt surge from your inverter (assuming 0.85 efficiency, and C/2.5 or 0.40 max current):
    • 300 watts * 1/12 volt nominal battery * 1/0.85 inv eff * 2.5 max current = 74 AH minimum rated battery
    Notice that a 65 watt panel will just charge a 70 AH battery bank. And a 300 watt (surge) inverter will just work on a ~74 AH battery bank minimum...

    So, we get these issues all the time of trying to match batteries/loads/solar panels for optimum system design.

    By the way, the above are generic rules of thumb and will (usually) give you a nicely performing system. However, rules can be adjusted to needs (AGM batteries have much better surge capability than flooded cell batteries; if you use a lot of Watt*Hours per day, you will need a larger battery bank/solar array for satisfactory performance).

    For an inverter... There are hundreds of inexpensive MSW (Modified Square Wave) inverters out there. For 80% of the 120 VAC appliances, they work OK. For 10%, MSW may cause the devices to overheat and/or fail (months, weeks, or even minutes to failure). It is not easy to predict which ones will work well or not.

    If you have a bit of cash--I would suggest a TSW type inverter. Basically the same sine wave and voltage from your wall outlet. And the small stuff (like cell phone chargers, DVD player/TV/Computer wall transformers & power bricks) work fine... MSW is a toss of the dice sometimes.

    I really like the Morning Star 300 Watt TSW 12 volt inverter. Has some high end features ("search mode" where it turns on for a moment, looks for 6+ watts of load, if no load found, goes to sleep for a short period; Also has a DC inhibit input--You don't need a big manual 200 amp switch to turn it off).

    However, it probably is too large for a "small system" unless you accept the limitations (cannot run the inverter at 300-600 watts on a small battery--Cannot run large loads very long, etc.).

    Exeltech and Samulex both make some smaller inverters (but still 10x the cost of a small MSW inverter). Look at the "standby" and no load losses--These can be significant on a small battery bank+solar panel system (part of your education).

    You can read the Inverter FAQ's here:

    All About Inverters
    Choosing an inverter for water pumping

    Beside the usual DMM (volt/amp/ohm meter--Try to get one that will read down to 200 mV scale)... Some other equipment to look at:

    Hydrometer + Thermometer (for flooded cell batteries only)
    Kill-a-Watt meter (measuring your 120 VAC loads and how much kWH per day they use)
    a DC Amp*Hour / Watt*Hour meter (DC equivalent of a Kill-a-Watt)

    When you get a full size battery bank/system--I really like to push a Battery Monitor--Roughly equivalent to adding a gas gauge to your car's fuel tank. (Victron Energy also makes nice battery monitors too). Probably too expensive for a small/experimental system (unless you plan on a larger bank in the future--tells you a lot about your charging/loads for your system).

    If you eventually work with larger battery banks--A clamp on DC Amp Meter is really nice (something like this guy).

    Here is a great thread that started from nothing and went through all of the issues/discussions for building a portable solar power center. Lots of information (not including building a PV panel).

    Building an Emergency Solar Power system

    And here is a thread that has pointers/information/links/further readings for anyone that has a "what if/what can I do with solar" type question:

    Working Thread for Solar Beginner Post/FAQ

    Most of us have made multiple expen$ive mi$take$ with solar systems... Everyone here is trying to be helpful and try to limit your costs and other issues. But, people want to experiment too...

    I will stop typing here... :blush:

    -Bill

    By the way, neither of us Moderators (Niel nor myself) work for NAWS--We are volunteers here for Spam control (boy--lots of that in the last few weeks :grr).

    Windsun and Rick are the only two people where with NAWS--The rest are also volunteering answers (and questions and opinions ;)) to keep the forum humming.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    BB You are the greatest! I will definitely look into the leads that you gave.

    Thank you for the info AntronX :).

    Neil you should maybe lighten up just a smiggin.

    Thanks all. Will show pics very soon.
  • nvyseal
    nvyseal Solar Expert Posts: 108 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    If you're toying with the idea of playing with solar, you might look at harbor freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=&q=solar especially here: http://www.harborfreight.com/45-watt-solar-panel-kit-90599.html Cost is cheap, all ready put together with a inverter.

    Just my 2 cents,
    As for our admins and moderators, respect them, they have been "around the blocks a few times" and know what you are getting into and what the outcome will be. They may be short and quick with answers, but their knowledge is invaluable. Same with most old timers on this forum.

    -Dave
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?
    nvyseal wrote: »
    They may be short and quick with answers

    Neil maybe...but Bill? Short answers? Bill?

    The mind boggles. :D
  • nvyseal
    nvyseal Solar Expert Posts: 108 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?
    dwh wrote: »
    Neil maybe...but Bill? Short answers? Bill?

    The mind boggles. :D


    Yes, I do find it amazing how long it takes to load a BB post on a T1 line, lol ;)
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    Re: What can I do with just one solar panel?

    Short post on a smart phone. :p

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset