I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

schoolphotographer

OK, so my sister divorces a cable tech and has a bunch of "cable TV stuff" she is going to throw away...

She has 4 Alpha Cable PWE-8 UPS boxes that cable companies mount on the telephone poles, they are designed to hold a UPS which is a battery charger/ maintainer/ inverter and 6-8 size 27-31 flooded cell batteries. THese things are worth at least $500-$750 a piece! So I have at least $2000 in "Battery Boxes"!!! (See Link at bottom)

I also get TWO brand new Alpha XM-915 Series 2 UPS units... THey plug into 120V AC and have trmp probes to charge and maintain the batteries, when the power goes out, the UPS inverter kicks in and outputs 87 - 90 VAC (Standard Cable Industry Voltage to keep the cable signel going to the houses) These puppies have to cost at least a grand ($1000) a pice and maybe more than that... (See Link at bottom)

So I have 4 nice boxes and two nice battery chargers with an inverter that can't supply me with 120 VAC... BUT I do have a ProSine 1800 Watt inverter I picked up a couple of years ago... I also have two 12V Solar Panels with a total of 220 Watts.

I also have two Rolls Surrette 200 AH 4000 series batteries...

I also have a BZ 250 MPPT Controller...

Here's what I want to do... Set up two redundent systems that charge each battery seperatly and can run the 1800 Watt inverter seperatly (or together), so I run the 220 watt panels through the BZ 250 MPPT to a Perko/Guest type marine battery selector switch... with this switch I can send the solar charge to Batt #1, Batt #2 OR BOTH...

At each battery, have another Perko/Guest type marine battery selector switch that I can have each battery select to accept a charge from the MPPT contoler OR the Alpha XM-915 Series 2 UPS units (AKA Charge via Line Power)

THEN... both batteries would feed back to a Perko/Guest type marine battery selector switch where I could have Batt #1, Batt #2 OR BOTH feed into the ProSine 1800 watt inverter which in turn would tie into the transfer switch for the house.

HERE's THE BIG NEWBIE QUESTIONS I THINK I KNOW BUT WANT TO BE SURE OF...

#1... Can a battery be charged by the MPPT Controller AND the charging ciruitry of the Alpha UPS AT THE SAME TIME?

#2... If the Rolls Surrette batteries are being charged by the MPPT OR the Alpha UPS... CAN the ProSine 1800 Watt Inverter be operating at the same time from the same battery that is being charged?

#3... Is there any way to take the 80-90 VAC output of the Alpha XM2 UPS Inverter output AND INCREASE IT to a usable 110-120 VAC Household current?

#4... If I do not want to not really use the two Rolls Surrette Batteries but "Exercise" them to keep them in good working order (limit their DOD to extend the number of cycles)... whould you put a daily load, once a week load, once a month load, ect.. AND HOW MUCH of a load would you put at what intervals? Would I have a schedule to desulfate the batteries? In other words, since I do not need them right now but belive I might in a year, two years or maybe 5 years, how do I keep them in great shape so if the day comes I do need them... I have the maximum number of discharge cycles left in the batteries???

#5... I would like to use this small 220 watt/400 AH storage solution to guarentee I can run my fridge, freezer and basic CFL lighting in case the day comes that I can't pay for grid electricity, grid electricity is not available, I can't get gas or propane for my gennys, or my gens fail... In other words, have a guarentee to refridgeration and lighting...

Last question... Knowing what I have and what I am trying to do, are there any questions or concerns that I have not brought up?

All opinions and help is welcome!

Thanks,
Rick

Here's the link for the PWE-8 Enclosures I have: http://www.alpha.com/Products/Alphaish/Cable-Broadband/Outside-Plant-Power/Enclosure-Systems/PWE-Enclosure/

Here's the link for the Alpha XM2-915 UPS I have: http://www.alpha.com/Products/Alphaiad/Cable-Broadband/Outside-Plant-Power/Power-Supplies/XM2-Series/

icarus

Re: I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

Don't have time to respond in depth tonight, but the BZ controllers are major POSs. I have one on that on a bench test performed worse than no controller at all! I wouldn't use it on any system. If you do a search on this site, you will see extensive detail on these.

Tony

schoolphotographer

Re: I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

icarus wrote: »

Don't have time to respond in depth tonight, but the BZ controllers are major POSs. I have one on that on a bench test performed worse than no controller at all! I wouldn't use it on any system. If you do a search on this site, you will see extensive detail on these.

Tony

Thanks Tony, that's the kind of info I need... bought the BZ because of price point... hopefully it won't damage anything if I use as a starting point and upgrade later... Like I said, I'm a newbie and am looking for any and all advise...

waynefromnscanada

Re: I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

schoolphotographer wrote: »

bought the BZ because of price point... hopefully it won't damage anything if I use as a starting point and upgrade later.

"performed worse than no controller at all!"
Does not sound like anything I'd want to do to my batteries, expensive inverter, or anything else I valued, that might be connected to the system!

schoolphotographer

Re: I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

The Grasshopper has much to learn! (I'm the Grasshopper")...

I wasn't having much luck searching for BZ info wind-sun.com until I read someone's post to try using "bz site:wind-sun.com" in Google... Wow! I found plenty of threads about BZ. Guess I screwed the pooch on buying the BZ 250.

Luckily I havent put what I have together yet. I'm strapped for cash right now but what would be my best bet for a controller that could handle a 12v 64w panel and a 12v 155w panel, do I want MPPT if I have mixed panels?

I'm really looking for the best value for the money at the lowest price.

Thanks for the heads up about the BZ!

niel

Re: I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

schoolphotographer wrote: »

OK, so my sister divorces a cable tech and has a bunch of "cable TV stuff" she is going to throw away...

She has 4 Alpha Cable PWE-8 UPS boxes that cable companies mount on the telephone poles, they are designed to hold a UPS which is a battery charger/ maintainer/ inverter and 6-8 size 27-31 flooded cell batteries. THese things are worth at least $500-$750 a piece! So I have at least $2000 in "Battery Boxes"!!! (See Link at bottom)

I also get TWO brand new Alpha XM-915 Series 2 UPS units... THey plug into 120V AC and have trmp probes to charge and maintain the batteries, when the power goes out, the UPS inverter kicks in and outputs 87 - 90 VAC (Standard Cable Industry Voltage to keep the cable signel going to the houses) These puppies have to cost at least a grand ($1000) a pice and maybe more than that... (See Link at bottom)

So I have 4 nice boxes and two nice battery chargers with an inverter that can't supply me with 120 VAC... BUT I do have a ProSine 1800 Watt inverter I picked up a couple of years ago... I also have two 12V Solar Panels with a total of 220 Watts.

I also have two Rolls Surrette 200 AH 4000 series batteries...

I also have a BZ 250 MPPT Controller...

Here's what I want to do... Set up two redundent systems that charge each battery seperatly and can run the 1800 Watt inverter seperatly (or together), so I run the 220 watt panels through the BZ 250 MPPT to a Perko/Guest type marine battery selector switch... with this switch I can send the solar charge to Batt #1, Batt #2 OR BOTH...

At each battery, have another Perko/Guest type marine battery selector switch that I can have each battery select to accept a charge from the MPPT contoler OR the Alpha XM-915 Series 2 UPS units (AKA Charge via Line Power)

THEN... both batteries would feed back to a Perko/Guest type marine battery selector switch where I could have Batt #1, Batt #2 OR BOTH feed into the ProSine 1800 watt inverter which in turn would tie into the transfer switch for the house.

HERE's THE BIG NEWBIE QUESTIONS I THINK I KNOW BUT WANT TO BE SURE OF...

#1... Can a battery be charged by the MPPT Controller AND the charging ciruitry of the Alpha UPS AT THE SAME TIME?

#2... If the Rolls Surrette batteries are being charged by the MPPT OR the Alpha UPS... CAN the ProSine 1800 Watt Inverter be operating at the same time from the same battery that is being charged?

#3... Is there any way to take the 80-90 VAC output of the Alpha XM2 UPS Inverter output AND INCREASE IT to a usable 110-120 VAC Household current?

#4... If I do not want to not really use the two Rolls Surrette Batteries but "Exercise" them to keep them in good working order (limit their DOD to extend the number of cycles)... whould you put a daily load, once a week load, once a month load, ect.. AND HOW MUCH of a load would you put at what intervals? Would I have a schedule to desulfate the batteries? In other words, since I do not need them right now but belive I might in a year, two years or maybe 5 years, how do I keep them in great shape so if the day comes I do need them... I have the maximum number of discharge cycles left in the batteries???

#5... I would like to use this small 220 watt/400 AH storage solution to guarentee I can run my fridge, freezer and basic CFL lighting in case the day comes that I can't pay for grid electricity, grid electricity is not available, I can't get gas or propane for my gennys, or my gens fail... In other words, have a guarentee to refridgeration and lighting...

Last question... Knowing what I have and what I am trying to do, are there any questions or concerns that I have not brought up?

All opinions and help is welcome!

Thanks,
Rick

Here's the link for the PWE-8 Enclosures I have: http://www.alpha.com/Products/Alphaish/Cable-Broadband/Outside-Plant-Power/Enclosure-Systems/PWE-Enclosure/

Here's the link for the Alpha XM2-915 UPS I have: http://www.alpha.com/Products/Alphaiad/Cable-Broadband/Outside-Plant-Power/Power-Supplies/XM2-Series/

1> yes, a battery can have multiple charge sources. just not a good idea to use the bz. you should take into account that multiple sources will have the effect of adding the charge currents together and you must be sure there isn't any issues with feeding too high of current into the batteries.

2> yes, you can operate it, but it will take away charge current from the batteries based on the loads presented to the inverter.

3> transformer comes to mind, be it an autotransformer or a fixed ratio type of the proper power rating. for instance the inverter has 3 optional output voltages and a stepup transformer with a 1:2 ratio on a 63v output will give 126vac. this is a tad on the high side, but should work. you may need to check with electrical supply places to see what's available and for how much. tell them what you have and what you want to do.

4> you can do that and it would be ok to do on a weekly or bimonthly basis i think, but can be more or less. i wouldn't take it down further than 75% soc (75% of full charge), but 80% to 90% soc would be good. make sure they have proper water levels, good charge to them, good connections, and keep them clean.

5> there's no guarantees to anything in life as the day you go to use it and need it a battery could fail. stuff happens.:roll: odds are it will be ok though.

schoolphotographer

Re: I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

THANK YOU Niel, Wayne and Tony!

I'm so grateful to you all, I really didn't know how much the charge controller could hurt my setup AND that an "American Made?" controller could have been so poorly designed. (it's amazing that BZ hasn't improved their product after seeing so many people complain for so long here on wind-sun.com)

Two new questions...

1. What is the least expensive type & brand (or specific controller) that I could buy at this point that would handle the 12 volt 60W & 155W Panels? (the BZ is being delivered later this week along with the 155 panel, I HOPE I can return it and get my $109 back.)

2. On charging the batteries and using the inverter at the same time... I'm assuming if I had a charging current of 18 Amps going into the battery and the inverter was pulling 10 amps, the net effect would be that the batteries would be charging at 8 amps? If I had 18 amp charge going to the battery and the inverter was pulling 118 amps, the net effect would a 100 amp (not 118 ) discharge rate?

Niel, I like your "no guarantees"... you think like me, I'm a Boy Scout... just trying to "be prepared"

Thanks You Friends,
Rick

icarus

Re: I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

Your panels are not likely to deliver more that ~ 12 amps, more likely closer to 10. I would buy a simple PWM controller, at lest to start. The advantge of an MPPT controller is not really. Cst effective with such small systems.

http://www.solar-electric.com/ss-20l.html

To answer y our quetion, yes, if you are drawing say 10 amps, and charging at 20 amps, the net will be a charge current of ~10 amps. (or any derivation thereof.)

Tony

schoolphotographer

Re: I'm not stupid... need a guru to check my thinking...

Thanks Tony...

I am now the proud owner of a Morningstar SunSaver 20L-12 12V 20A Charge Controller!

Can't wait till I get it!

Rick