Help in Canada!

sledward
sledward Registered Users Posts: 6
Hello from Canada!

I have read on this forum here and there when I have been hooking up aux batteries in my Jeep etc for camping. Since then I have bought a house, and a "second hand" solar setup.

I do have some questions about how to go about hooking it up.


Space in the yard is not an issue as I own over 80 acres. So depending on the setup, will determine where to put the tower with the panels. But location of the battery bank / inverter is the issue.

My question is this, would it be beneficial to have the batteries in the house, build a custom enclosure and vent it outdoors, or to hook everything up in my garage / shed outside which has power running to it currently.....disconnect that power, install the setup in the garage and power my house from the garage / solar setup.

The reason I ask that is I have limited room in my basement which currently is a living-room. But ALSO I have the potential to have -40 winters (I am in northern Ontario).

Heating the garage may be an issue....where heating the house happens.....Should I build an insulated enclosure in the garage? ....

These decisions are what's blowing my mind and making this solar setup a headache. Not to mention I fear the batteries are very old (I suspected this when I purchased the setup....and plan on replacing all batteries shorly....they are 24 - 6v 225aH, wired into 48v.)

Thanks, and if more information is needed please let me know.....I am new to this! :)

Lee

Comments

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly Solar Expert Posts: 334 ✭✭
    Re: Help in Canada!

    Is this house connected to the grid? If this is to be a grid connected back up application, I'd be hard pressed not to go with AMG batteries (and perhaps not so many) and keep them inside in a conditioned space. If this is off the grid, then that may make AGM's a bit more cost prohibitive depending on your overall desired battery bank size. The temperatures will be a major factor in battery capacity http://www.windsun.com/pictures/Batt_temperature1.gif , so I would hazard a guess that it will prove cheaper to insulate/regulate temperatures than to increase the battery size in order to compensate for this issue.

    The issue with wet cells, is that they are not exactly the "cleanest" creatures and need to be housed accordingly to deal with acid spill/drip containment and hydrogen venting. Thus if you can house sealed AGM's indoors this may prove to be a big plus, OR build a well designed and vented battery box in a conditioned space for wet cells. Look also at what type of battery you might replace these with, think about the overall footprint, and the weight especially; you'll have to get those batteries installed wherever you wish to house them, and indoors this can prove very difficult with some of the larger sized batteries.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help in Canada!

    First,

    Give us an idea of what your set up is (or is going to be)

    As for batteries, cold is not a problem for batteries per se. In fact batteries last longer, the cooler (colder) they are, it is just that their capacity is less when they are cold. Assuming you keep the batteries fully charged, they won't freeze at -40, especially if they are enclosed.

    I would keep the batteries in a vented, insulated battery box, probably in the shed or in the garage. The ideal is to keep the temperature somewhat even, especially between any batteries in the string. I would also make sure that any charge controller/battery charger system have a temperature compensation system built in.

    So give us some more idea of what it is you are trying to achieve and we can then go forward with ideas. Welcome to the forum. There are some very sharp folks here who have forgotten more about solar power than most of us will ever know. Good luck and keep in touch,

    Tony
  • sledward
    sledward Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Help in Canada!

    Thanks Tony,

    Okay, so first things first, here is what I want to have happen. Once you know this, the ideas can flow....and if needed I can use MSPaint to scribble up a layout of my lot near the house.

    I want to be off-grid eventually. People here keep pushing the "sell to the grid" thing, but really, I would much rather have nothing to do with the elec. company. So for starters this would be a "grid tie" backup application. When my batteries are too low, boom, kick in the grid and charge up the batteries. (Ideally I would love that this only kick-in at night as well.... so IF it's after 9PM and before 7AM AND the batteries are low, charge em up, otherwise wait until that condition is met.) But keeping in mind my goal is to as quick as possible turn off my breaker to the grid and enjoy no more power bill (other than my system maintenenace.)

    Currently my basement is a rec-room with carpeting, and the batteries are on a shelving unit I built with pallet boards enclosing it, silicone to seal up the cracks and holes drilled to allow gasses to flow up. I also have a number of computer (brushless ofcourse) fans so that the air is forced out the top of the rack. None of the batteries are wired anything more than 12v at the moment, and I am charging them up one at a time slowly through out the winter until the spring when I can dig my hole for the solar tower. (This tower also will have a sun tracker on it....if I can figure out how to wire that up too.)

    I know that this basement is not the ideal condition for the batteries incase of a leak. So I was thinking of moving it to the garage. (This is more a work shop....wooden floors etc... just an old, large shed really....) The garage has electricity running out to it now.... I am not sure the rating, or the wire size, but I think I should be able to have the batteries, and the inverter out there in the garage without an issue.

    Based on Tony's post, I should be good to go as long as I insulate it and monitor the temprature in the enclosed shelving? (I was thinking of buying a MorningStar MPPT charge controller with the temp. sensor with my Xmas Bonus from work...) Could I then take the wire that is running into my house from the garage, wire that to a sub-panel instead, and move some "critical" circuits over to run on my solar to start with, and once I figure I can shut off the power from the grid do so that way? Or would it be better to have the inverter in the house? I am running 48V, so I am not sure on the wire size, if I am to run a new set or wires for the DC side of things....

    I am glad it's only Dec/Jan so I have a few months to hammer out some of the details of a plan before digging a hole for the tower!

    Thanks again guys for the replies.

    L

    PS: I wrote this in a rush....if it's confusing, or spelling mistakes......ignore it. LOL. take care.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help in Canada!

    Just because it must be said, let's get it out of the way earlier in the thread than later.

    You do realize of course that off grid power comes at about twice the cost per installed watt, with about 1/2 the net/net efficiency resulting in power cost that is ~4 times as much per KWH as grid tie? What you may or may not know is that OPG has a feed in tariff that pays a solar producer ~ $.80 kwh for power send to the grid, one of the most generous rebates anywhere in north America.

    So, begging the question, if you go off grid, you will pay twice as much for 1/2 the power, you will have to replace the batteries at ~ 1/3 the cost of the total system cost every 3-10 years depending on what your battery set up is going to be. Couple that with loosing the potential $.80 kwh feed in from OPG and you net/net a system that is VERY expensive compared to a grid tie.

    Now if you wish to do a hybrid system to provide some power when the grid is down that is an other conversation. In that event, you might discover that you might be better off using the money you would spend on batteries to buy more PV to take advantage of the $.80 kwh and or buy a small generator to use during those rare outages.

    The bottom line is, most of us that live off grid would kill to have the grid available, as it is a cheap, reliable resource, and to no take advantage of it is,, IMHO short sighted.

    Now that I have gotten that said, we can let that go if you are content to move forward with your off grid system.

    Tony
  • sledward
    sledward Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Help in Canada!

    I understand that (not opg) the Ontario Power Authority (OPA) has this MicroFIT program. As I understood it all, there are a little too many rules regarding feeding the grid, something that I dont want to worry about. Also on that note, the inverter I have is no longer approved in Canada (UL 17somthing....) for the selling to the grid.

    ALSO, I understand that it may be cheaper currently for the grid power than off-grid power, but rates for Hydro One will be (and currently are) climbing... and then when the time-of-use comes into play up north here.... who knows what my rate will be. (I suspect over 10 cents in the next two years for OFF-Peak) As it is, as soon as I moved into this new house my bill went from $62 a month with one company to $160 with Hydro One.... when the time-of-use rates show up up here, it will nearly double that! (I think I pay less than $0.07 currently, and it will jump.)

    This is kind of why I wanted a grid as a "backup" when the batteries are low. That way I can work at it slowly, shrinking that bill to below 10kw/Mo. (It will never be $0, as I am sure you're aware with the Debt Retirement.)

    Back to the OPA thing. Because I am not willing to mount anything to my roof at the moment, I would only be getting about $0.64 per KW rather than the 0.80, they are also changing the rules to get approved for the program (Dec. 8th...) etc etc.... The Ontario Gov't frustrates me.

    (Also, I do have two generators.....one that was here with the house when I bought it, and one that came with the solar stuff when I picked it up from the dude down south....... 2300 canadian tire one, and then the one from the dude, is a 3.7kw yanmar diesel.)

    Maybe I am wrong, and just wasted a $h*^ load of money for nothing..... I don't know? lol.... Now I feel like it was a waste.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Help in Canada!

    For backup power in a region with killer winter weather--Probably well worth the price.

    The problem with off-grid power and batteries used as primary with grid backup is the batteries themselves... They have ~20% power loss (cycling), inverter has another 15% loss, charger has ~20% too... So:
    • overall efficiency = 0.80 * 0.85 * 0.80 = 0.54 overall efficiency
    So, one of the reasons that people look to simple battery use to time shift power (charge at night, use power during peak time)--It costs almost 2x the amount the power to shift the power from night to day (as an example).

    When I have estimated costs for a off-grid system (without solar) for a power shifting system. It worked out to around $0.45 per kWH just for the cost of (New) inverter/charging/battery bank + replacing batteries every 8-15 years or so (and you should plan on replacing the inverters/chargers every ~10+/- years too).

    As soon as you throw solar panels into the mix with off-grid, the cost per kWH is ~$1-$2+ per kWH (again, new components and including battery replacement, assuming 20 year life, and lost opportunity of charging--2-3 days of energy storage, etc.).

    You have purchased, hopefully, good equipment at a reduced cost--so your entry costs are much better.

    The basic formula for a first cut at kWH pricing is not difficult...
    • (cost of system + cost of maintenance over 20 years + generator fuel cost + etc.) / (number of kWHr per year used * 20 years)
    Here in the US, even before rebates, it is possible to approach the $0.15 per kWH price for Pure Grid Tied power (no batteries, no backup power).

    We can workout the same costing for you with just a few major numbers... Size of Array, location (predict hours of sun over the year), Grid Tied or Off Grid or Hybrid, and pick some major components for price, add replacement battery bank (if battery based), and see what things cost.

    We are not trying to depress you--we really just want to see you make the right choices (for you and your family) and not figure out the weaknesses 5 years into your project.

    And, mentioned last here, but should always be first... Conservation. Almost always a better return on investment (insulation, windows, lighting, heating/cooling, hot water, appliances, computers, audio visual, and turning stuff of when not used, etc.) than solar RE power will ever benefit your bottom line.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • sledward
    sledward Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Help in Canada!

    Well here is what I got for $7000.


    8 120 watt panels (4 each giving 48V)
    Tower, with a tracker that follows thesun. (Complete kit, not installed, but will work.)
    24 6v batteries @ 225aH each (These will need to be replaces sooner than later, I am sure.)
    Xantrex SW5548 inverter
    3.7KW diesel generator
    Trace C40 Charge Controller
    Lightning Arrestors AC and DC
    A few disconnect switches, and fuses for between battery / inverter.


    You are right about conserving, and that is my number one rule. I remember reading somewhere, that for every $ you spend on conservation, it's approx. $2 less you'll need to spend on renewable energy.

    I have infact converted a deep freeze to use as my fridge. Went from 4kWh a day with that old fridge I had, to 0.3kWh a day. We unplug everything that has a stand-by light on it at night.

    I do intend on (and I will be researching this throughout the winter) replacing my water pump to a DC powered one. Unless I can be talked out of it? lol.

    I also intend on replacing the fan on my wood furnace to a DC variable speed fan.
    On that note, I also have (a wedding gift) a few of those "TEGPower" thermal elec. power strips. so far the work great because it's winter time....easy to cool down the water. I am sure I could power the fan in the woodstove by the power strips on the stove pipe. Based on the math that will work, but that's another project for later on once I figure out this main solar thing.




    .......So, did I understand this right.....it costs double to charge at night??

    EDIT: The winters here are hit and miss. Usually terrible, but lately, nice. Today it's +1C and raining, and usually it's -20C
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Help in Canada!
    sledward wrote: »
    8 120 watt panels (4 each giving 48V)
    Tower, with a tracker that follows thesun.
    24 6v batteries @ 225aH each (These will need to be replaces sooner than later, I am sure.)
    Xantrex SW5548 inverter
    3.7KW diesel generator
    Trace C40 Charge Controller
    Using PV Watts for North Bay Ontario (probably too far south for you), 2 axis tracking, 1 kWatt array (smallest number accepted ~0.960 kW for your array):
    "Station Identification"
    "City:","North"
    "State:","ON"
    "Lat (deg N):", 46.35
    "Long (deg W):", 79.43
    "Elev (m): ", 358
    "Weather Data:","CWEC"

    "PV System Specifications"
    "DC Rating:"," 1.0 kW"
    "DC to AC Derate Factor:"," 0.520"
    "AC Rating:"," 0.5 kW"
    "Array Type: 2-Axis Tracking"
    "Array Tilt:","N/A"
    "Array Azimuth:","N/A"

    "Energy Specifications"
    "Cost of Electricity:"," 0.0862 Can$/kWh"

    "Results"
    "Month", "Solar Radiation (kWh/m^2/day)", "AC Energy (kWh)", "Energy Value (Can$)"
    1, 4.24, 74, 0.06
    2, 6.15, 94, 0.08
    3, 7.55, 124, 0.11
    4, 7.50, 116, 0.10
    5, 8.62, 132, 0.11
    6, 7.94, 115, 0.10
    7, 8.88, 132, 0.11
    8, 7.35, 108, 0.09
    9, 5.84, 86, 0.07
    10, 4.59, 71, 0.06
    11, 2.34, 35, 0.03
    12, 2.74, 46, 0.04
    "Year", 6.15, 1133, $98.00
    So, your system would expect to generate (20 year average, maximum usable power per month) of 35-132 kWH per month (depending on Season).

    Or around 1,133 kWH per year per 1,000 watts of solar panel... Please note that in a real off-grid situation you cannot hope to use 100% of your generated power per day--But we will use that number for now:
    • ($7,000 system + $3,360 for 24 more batteries) / (1,133 kWH per year * 10 year return) = $0.91 per kWH
    Not including costs to install tracker/wiring/equipment upgrades as needed. And that you can only use probably 50-70% of your power day by day if you were truly off-grid. That would just about double the cost to ~$1.82 per kWH.

    You can play some games with the above--assume panels have a 20 year life and amortize that over 20 years, etc.

    Also, lets look at the size of the battery bank... Recommend that you have ~5-13% rate of charge from your solar array to your battery bank, assuming 0.77 system charging efficiency at 58 volts charging:
    • 960 watts * 1/58 volts charging * 0.77 eff * 1/0.05 rate of charge = 255 AH @ 48 volts maximum
    • 960 watts * 1/58 volts charging * 0.77 eff * 1/0.05 rate of charge = 98 AH @ 48 volt minimum
    Your current battery bank is ~3 parallel strings of 8x225 AH 6 volt batteries or 675 AH @ 48 volts...

    With your current setup you seem to have a lot of battery bank and not much in the way of solar panels. Either it would be a good idea to have 3x the number of solar panels or 1/3 the number of batteries to meet the minimum 5% rate of charge--Or use the generator/grid power to keep the battery bank well charged.

    I am a big believer in balancing your loads against the battery bank sizing. And make sure you have sufficient charging to keep the battery bank well charged. An over-sized battery bank can be a big pain (usually, costing lots of extra generator fuel to keep charged). Otherwise, the battery bank tends to not keep charged and will sulfate early (cost you capacity).
    You are right about conserving, and that is my number one rule. I remember reading somewhere, that for every $ you spend on conservation, it's approx. $2 less you'll need to spend on renewable energy.
    It is probably closer to 10x savings...

    If you agree somewhat with my numbers above--your off-grid power costs are ~20x your grid power costs (I don't know meter/connection charge for your area).
    I have infact converted a deep freeze to use as my fridge. Went from 4kWh a day with that old fridge I had, to 0.3kWh a day. We unplug everything that has a stand-by light on it at night.
    Yep--that can save a bunch of power. If your spouse can stand the basket shuffle. ;)
    I do intend on (and I will be researching this throughout the winter) replacing my water pump to a DC powered one. Unless I can be talked out of it?
    DC / Grundfos pumps are frequently worth the money for off grid folks... Run a 1/4 horse motor for several hours vs running a 2 HP motor for 30 minutes (have to size the inverter/battery bank/solar array to manage that huge amount of power which is almost an after thought on 240 VAC grid power).

    At this point, do the research--but don't pull a perfectly good AC pump just yet. If you have high pumping costs--you can look at a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) type controller for use with 3 wire (external capacitor start) or 3 phase pumps. Can significantly reduce pumping costs if your current pump motor is oversized (run at reduce speed/flow rate to reduce power consumption).
    I also intend on replacing the fan on my wood furnace to a DC variable speed fan.

    On that note, I also have (a wedding gift) a few of those "TEGPower" thermal elec. power strips. so far the work great because it's winter time....easy to cool down the water. I am sure I could power the fan in the woodstove by the power strips on the stove pipe. Based on the math that will work, but that's another project for later on once I figure out this main solar thing.
    For looking at saving money, a Kill-a-Watt meter can be a big help (also good for off-grid power planning).
    .......So, did I understand this right.....it costs double to charge at night??
    If you add up all the conversion/storage losses--To charge at night and use the power during the day costs you almost 2x the amount of kWH--So approximately yes... For my TOU, I run ~a 3:1 Peak:Off-Peak cost ($0.27:$0.09 for summer peak/off peak)--but as you can see, that does not even take into account for battery/hardware replacement costs.

    If I use a lot of power--the spread between peak/off-peak shrinks (tiered power pricing--the more I use, the higher rates I pay).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help in Canada!

    I know I said I would shut up, but it should be noted, that you are paying ~$..082 kwh when you buy power, and would get paid ~$.80 kwh when you sell power.

    So if you sell all you can produce during the day, using the PV watts AC calc. a 1kw system would yield about $103 worth of power at the .082 rate (per year), but would be closer to a $1000 (per year) at the .80 rate,,, ten times as much!

    That same 1 kw system might cost between $5-10,000 inclusive, before any other rebates! So at a $5000 investment, the return would be nearly 20% right out of the gate, with a pay off in less than 5 years! That is why so many Ontarians have jumped at this chance! Even if you expect your grid kwh price to go up, (which I agree it will,) it will have to go up nearly ten fold before your Pv would produce power that is more expensive than buying it directly from the grid.

    So if you could structure your loading so that you could sell every kwh produced in the daylight to the grid, and do all your loading at night so that your net/net was equal, you could have not only free power, but power that paid you! What is not to like?

    As for your inverter not being accepted by the utility. This comes under the category of no big deal. Not to use the grid because your inverter is obsolete is penny wise and pound foolish IMHO. A 2 kw grid tie inverter is under $2K. (about the price of your batteries!)

    Shutting up now!

    Tony
  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Help in Canada!

    Sledward,
    If you check out my signature you'll see what a microFIT can entail. Lots of work, lots of money, but a good return It's not for everyone, but it is around. If you don't want to go the full 10kw possible you can net meter your home system as long as the single connection point (transformer or address) doesnt exceet 10kw. I couldn't net meter with my home system for that reason.

    What you got for your $7K looks good to me. The 5548 and the generator alone are worth more than that, add in the panels and you are really off and running. I now use the utility as battery charger and the cost is ridiculously low. A charge cycle uses about 10kwhrs (60 cents off peak) and takes perhaps 10 hours. Using my diesel genset to charge took less hours but at 2.5litres per hour x 6 hours x 85cents per litre = $12.75 for the same charging result. The monthly hook up costs are about $40 per month, so the overall cost is more than diesel previously purchased in a year, but less headaches involved...maybe.

    With a battery set sized to get you through the night at 20% discharge you could be well set. The solar to charge and get you through the day, the utility if charging needed (overnight say) and the generator to handle outages when the utility is down and you need to charge. You've got most of what you need already, get a handle on the loads you can live with (I'm at 6-7kwhrs per day) and see how it goes. Don't cut loose from the Hydro One tit if you don't have too. It cost $1350 plus HST to re-hook up for me.

    Ralph
  • sledward
    sledward Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Help in Canada!

    Thanks for the tips Ralph!

    I am really thinking now about net metering, or what you described....the reason I am leaning away from net metering (for now) is the fact that the inverter I have is no longer allowed to feed power to the grid (As of Jan 1st 2011). So, rather than buy a new inverter for now, I figured I would just charge during the night from grid if needed, and go from there.

    Since my latest posts I did TONNES of looking into what the costs of certain things were in my home. I (roughly, by turning off hot water tank, and going about my day) figured my hot water tank uses about 13 kwh a day.

    When I turn it off, my daily usage is about 10 kwh a day.

    I have two kill-a-watt meters (I bought them about a year ago, and finally found them....since I had only moved a while back.) and will be recording each device to see what uses the most power.

    anyway........... to sum this whole thing up in a short msg.

    I want to net meter, I think it's cheaper than buying new batteries. you know? ~$3500 for batteries, or ~$3500 for a big enough inverter to net-meter.

    So, that being said, should I keep my other inverter I got in this package deal, or sell it? - - - with the batteries, should I keep them as a "backup power" source, or sell them / properly dispose of them??

    Have a great weekend guys!!!!

    L
  • jagec
    jagec Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭
    Re: Help in Canada!
    sledward wrote: »
    Thanks for the tips Ralph!

    I am really thinking now about net metering, or what you described....the reason I am leaning away from net metering (for now) is the fact that the inverter I have is no longer allowed to feed power to the grid (As of Jan 1st 2011). So, rather than buy a new inverter for now, I figured I would just charge during the night from grid if needed, and go from there.

    Since my latest posts I did TONNES of looking into what the costs of certain things were in my home. I (roughly, by turning off hot water tank, and going about my day) figured my hot water tank uses about 13 kwh a day.

    When I turn it off, my daily usage is about 10 kwh a day.

    I have two kill-a-watt meters (I bought them about a year ago, and finally found them....since I had only moved a while back.) and will be recording each device to see what uses the most power.

    anyway........... to sum this whole thing up in a short msg.

    I want to net meter, I think it's cheaper than buying new batteries. you know? ~$3500 for batteries, or ~$3500 for a big enough inverter to net-meter.

    So, that being said, should I keep my other inverter I got in this package deal, or sell it? - - - with the batteries, should I keep them as a "backup power" source, or sell them / properly dispose of them??

    Have a great weekend guys!!!!

    L

    If I were you I'd buy a properly certified grid-tie inverter and go microFIT with your current panels (or even buy some more! Panels aren't too expensive these days), and use your existing battery pack and inverter for an independent backup power supply, unconnected to the solar.

    Then I'd get a decent battery charger, and keep the batteries charged off of the grid. If the power went out, I'd have a backup source for a while. If the batteries started to run out before the grid came back up, I'd run the generator for only as long as it took to charge them completely, and then shut it off. That way I could make the most out of my generator usage, without having to leave it on for hours just to run a few lights or whatever. Maybe I could time my loads so that I was using the microwave, doing laundry, heating water etc. while the generator was running, again trying to squeeze the most out of every gallon of fuel.

    It's true that this way wouldn't take advantage of your solar output during blackouts, but it provides most of the same benefits for a much lower price, and takes full advantage of the ridiculously generous feed-in tariff. Besides, doesn't the power usually go out in the middle of winter when you aren't getting much solar output anyway?
  • sledward
    sledward Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Help in Canada!

    I could always use the 5548 as a charger for the batteries I guess while selling my excess from the solar to the grid.