Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

BilljustBill

I'll have ten Kyocera 135 w GX panels on the MPPT Outback 80 amp controller. There will be two strings with five panels.

Do you see any problems also adding to Outback controller another ten Kaneka 60 watt, 60v panels in two parallel strings of five panels each? Total amp is about 12 amps for all the Kaneka's output.

Bill

BB.

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

What is the battery bank voltage?

-Bill

BilljustBill

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

BB. wrote: »

What is the battery bank voltage?

-Bill

Battery bank voltage is 48v.

Batteries: Eight U.S. Battery L-16hc, 420 ah.

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_usl16hcxc.html

Cariboocoot

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

BilljustBill wrote: »

I'll have ten Kyocera 135 w GX panels on the MPPT Outback 80 amp controller. There will be two strings with five panels.

Do you see any problems also adding to Outback controller another ten Kaneka 60 watt, 60v panels in two parallel strings of five panels each? Total amp is about 12 amps for all the Kaneka's output.

Bill

Well I see a big problem right away if what you wrote is what you meant:

5 * 60 Volts = 300 Volts. Waaay over the OB's max.

The Kyocera's are "12 Volt" with a Voc of 22.1 * 5 = 110.5 so no problem there.
The FM80 can handle something like 4500 Watts on a 48 Volt system so no problem there.
The only other problem is the question of Vmp and Imp of two different panel types; might not be very efficient.

And yes you want at least 1600 Watts of panel for those batteries.

BilljustBill

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Well I see a big problem right away if what you wrote is what you meant:

5 * 60 Volts = 300 Volts. Waaay over the OB's max.

The Kyocera's are "12 Volt" with a Voc of 22.1 * 5 = 110.5 so no problem there.
The FM80 can handle something like 4500 Watts on a 48 Volt system so no problem there.
The only other problem is the question of Vmp and Imp of two different panel types; might not be very efficient.

And yes you want at least 1600 Watts of panel for those batteries.

The five Kyocera's panels are 12v wired in series then you get about 60 volts at about 7.5 amps for each of the two strings to small combiner box and going into the Outback Flexmat 80.

If the five Kaneka panels are 60v each and wired in Parallel, wouldn't you have 60v and about 6 amps; not 300v? Each string to a combiner box and down to the 80amp Outback.

Having the voltages about the same, and the amps within what 'appears to be' a workable match entering the controller, it "seems" the numbers are close. I just need some extra eyes and minds to help me see what I'm missing.

Thanks,
Bill

BB.

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

The five kyocera panels are 5x17.5 = 87.5 volts (typing on phone-numbers approximate).

The vmp of the 60 volt panels is too much at 2x60=120 volts in cold weather and to low in hot weather (approximately 48 volts for one panel vmp).

There is a hole where 50-75 volt (approximately) vmp panels are too low of voltage to charge a 48 volt battery bank on a hot day with one panel. And two panels in series is too high of voltage on cold days for 150 vdc maximum input voltage mppt charge controllers.

-Bill

Cariboocoot

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

Nomenclature strikes again!

You said "60v panels in two parallel strings of five panels each". a "string of five panels" is five panels connected in series; hence 5 * 60 Volts = 300.

If they're all connected in parallel there are no "strings" and you just have 10 60 Volt panels in parallel.

What matters most in a parallel connection is the Vmp. The Kyocera's are 17.7 Vmp, so that's 5 * 17.7 = 88.5 Vmp for the string. The specs I find on the Kaneka's is 67 Vmp. In my opinion that's too far apart for proper operation. But perhaps the panels aren't these?

Cariboocoot

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

BTW the Voc on these is 92. So if you meant five parallel strings of two in series that would be a Voc of 184 Volts. That would be the end of the FM80.

BilljustBill

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Nomenclature strikes again!

You said "60v panels in two parallel strings of five panels each". a "string of five panels" is five panels connected in series; hence 5 * 60 Volts = 300.

If they're all connected in parallel there are no "strings" and you just have 10 60 Volt panels in parallel.

What matters most in a parallel connection is the Vmp. The Kyocera's are 17.7 Vmp, so that's 5 * 17.7 = 88.5 Vmp for the string. The specs I find on the Kaneka's is 67 Vmp. In my opinion that's too far apart for proper operation. But perhaps the panels aren't these?

Sorry for the nomenclature error, I didn't understand that a string meant in a series and parallel was just group of the same panels... Learning curves take time, and I've not been in this solar power field all that long.... :roll:

Here is the description:

Kaneka 60-Watt amorphous silicon PV modules, with black anodized frames and MC4 connectors.

The Kaneka G-SA060 is a single junction amorphous silicon cell. Amorphous silicon (a-Si) has superior light absorption which maximizes performance and higher power in hot climates and cloudy conditions compared to crystal silicon (c-Si) cell modules.

The G-SA060 has a maximum system voltage of 530 Vdc and features by-pass diodes, lead free solder, dark anodized aluminum frame, four mounting and two grounding holes, 29" output wires with 3mm MC connectors. It is UL/cUL listed to UL-1703. 25-year output warranty. Japan


Volts open circuit: 91.8 volts DC
Volts at maximum power: 67 volts DC
Current short circuit: 1.19 amps
Current at max power: 0.9 amps

I understand what you and Bill are saying. It appears that they can produce power, but there seems to be a "Doughnut Hole" in their uses with low and high voltage being somewhat of their down fall. I'm just wondering how these panels are used and with what kind of controller?

Thanks,
Bill

Cariboocoot

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

BilljustBill wrote: »

I understand what you and Bill are saying. It appears that they can produce power, but there seems to be a "Doughnut Hole" in their uses with low and high voltage being somewhat of their down fall. I'm just wondering how these panels are used and with what kind of controller?

Thanks,
Bill

Well you could parallel them. At 92 Voc / 67 Vmp they'd work for a 48 V or less system. At 0.9 Amps each and only 60 Watts you'd have to parallel a lot of 'em.

My guess would be they're intended for grid-tie, which has much higher input Voltage (like 400 Volts). Even so, 60 Watts is a pretty anemic panel these days. Despite claims to the contrary, amorphous panels aren't that great. :roll:

BB.

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

Like you say--there is a doughnut hole for 48 volt battery banks and 150 VDC max charge controllers... If you run a 24 or 12 volt bank, 1 panel Vmp will be fine.

Or, running a bunch of them on Grid Tied where the typical working (Vmp-array) is around 200-600 VDC (depending on brand, model, etc.).

At this point, 60 watt amorphous panels are fairly large (because they are ~1/2 the efficiency of mono-crystalline panels). Also, that means you have 2-4x the number of connections vs a 120-240 watt solar panel.

Basically, shop on price and if will they fill your needs (2x the area of panels means more "roof space", more shipping costs, more rack mounts, more wiring, more combiners, etc.).

Some of the amorphous pricing, when it goes below $1.00 per watt, sure makes it more difficult to ignore the pricing. You still need to watch all of the other costs/drawbacks too.

-Bill

BilljustBill

Re: Outback's 80 amp controller and two types of panels

BB. wrote: »

Like you say--there is a doughnut hole for 48 volt battery banks and 150 VDC max charge controllers... If you run a 24 or 12 volt bank, 1 panel Vmp will be fine.

Or, running a bunch of them on Grid Tied where the typical working (Vmp-array) is around 200-600 VDC (depending on brand, model, etc.).

At this point, 60 watt amorphous panels are fairly large (because they are ~1/2 the efficiency of mono-crystalline panels). Also, that means you have 2-4x the number of connections vs a 120-240 watt solar panel.

Basically, shop on price and if will they fill your needs (2x the area of panels means more "roof space", more shipping costs, more rack mounts, more wiring, more combiners, etc.).

Some of the amorphous pricing, when it goes below $1.00 per watt, sure makes it more difficult to ignore the pricing. You still need to watch all of the other costs/drawbacks too.

-Bill

Thanks to both of you for your help. For now, roof placement space on a 16'x32' outside building with a gambrel (barn style) roof design, and facing almost perfectly to solar South, the size and number of these panels aren't an issue. Yes, it is tempting to try and use them. When you see 60 watt panels for $40, and ten of them gives you 600 watts for the price of one 135w Kyocera 12v panel, it gets your mind going.

I had talked with a good solar friend, and we had talked about a 24v system, but I thought starting with the 48v system would give a bit more power longevity. I just finalized a $3,000 order today with NAWS for the grid/battery 3648 inverter, two 135w panels, 80 amp controller, Mate-2, and battery temp.... This is added to 8 more 135w Kyocera panels and 1,050 watts from two other strings.

The added 10 Kaneka would have gotten me up to 2800 watts of panel power.... Is there a specific controller that would allow these to work on a 48 volt system?

I consider myself very fortunate to get parts enough to assemble for this size of solar array, and stopping at 2.2KW is enough....for now

Bill