Charge controller/ Mate issues

Derik

I have an FX80 Outback Charge Controller 12 Tojan L-16 Batteries, hooked up in a 24volt set up. I also have an Outback Mate. I do not have a back up generator.

When I set the system up back in May I was told to set it up off the controller and not to bother programming the mate. This worked through the summer but I have been getting low Hydrometer readings 1210 after a full day of charging and about 1200 first thing in the morning. So the batteries are never getting fully charged.

I checked the Mate and just as I had witnessed the bulk charging was only set for one hour.

I had a recommendation sheet of settings from Backwoods Solar so I reset the Mate to the values they recommended. I left the Charge Controller as it was since I had programmed it in May to the value recommended. I set the the system to equalize and am hoping to find the batteries up to charge when I return (remote location).

I am in S. CA and we get plenty of sun.

Do the two work independently Mate/Charge Controller and do you think my initial set up on the controller meant for the past 6 months I have only been charging in bulk for 1 hour when the voltage of 29.6 is met? I noticed the system works very fast and can reach what I thought was full charge in about 3 hours.

The mate settings are identical to what I had initially set the charge controller up at now but which system supersedes the other?

My theory of the recent low Hydrometer readings is that before the batteries would eventually fully charge with the bulk zap and then the trickle of the absorb rate. Now with the cold weather and more power demands this isn't happneing.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Cariboocoot

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

If there's no HUB in your system, then the FM80 isn't connected to the MATE. This means the charging program is all done by the FM80 and the MATE's charge settings would only come in to play when using the (one would assume) connected Outback inverter to charge from a generator.

I think your problem may be one of the usual ones: too much battery. Twelve L16's on a 24 Volt system is three parallel banks of 320 Amp hours each. Total: 960 Amp hours. Now since they would want 96 Amps of charge current and the FM80 is only capable of 80 Amps maximum, methinks there's some chronic deficit charging going on which would result in sulphation and decreased battery capacity.

So what exactly are your charge settings on the FM80, and how much current (peak) do you see in full sun?

Should be something like this:
ABSORB Voltage 28.4, ABSORB time either count-up (same as the time it takes to reach ABSORB from start of charge) or maximum (4 hours).
FLOAT Voltage 27.6
Peak current 48 Amps minimum with no loads drawing, 80 Amps better.

How big is your array? It should be maxed out for that size bank (nearly 3000 Watts).

Disconnect your parallel battery strings. Charge one up at a time, run an Equalization cycle on it for one hour, check that all cells have close Specific Gravity. Then repeat with the other two battery strings.

Oh, and get a back-up generator.

Derik

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

I don't know what a HUB is but for some reason I assumed the mate was connected since it is accurate at showing me the volts the batterys are at, how many KWH I used for the day and what the Input is from the panels.

My System is one huge 200 pound Outback Inverter/ charge controller all in one.

I have 9- 215 watt panels. The most I have seen in amps in 75 amps. The controller has showed over 2,000 watts but normally what I see is about 1850 during peak sun in the bulk setting.

The thing that lead me to believe the mate was accurate was when I re programed it it had the bulk setting at 1 hour and that is exactly what I was seeing, low batteries being chared only for a few hours a day and then the system going into float too soon.

Yesterday when I set the mate to EQ I saw it kick up the panels to 750 watts, and the batteries went from the float setting to equalize at 31 volts. The watts were low because I did this after 2:30 pm. Normal watts for bulk shows at 1700-2000.

I am in the high desert and have over 7 hours of full sun this time of year but everything shuts down around noon once it reaches what used to be 29.6 volts now it's showing 30.3 volts or so due to the temperature compensation.. I am guessing.

The settings I had set the controller at were Absorb 29.6 Float 27.6

Cariboocoot

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

Okay 75 Amps is good. You can live with 75 Amps on that battery bank. That's almost 8% charge rate. It sounds as though your panels are doing a good job, although the numbers don't add up: 75 Amps @ 29.6 Volts = 2220 Watts (but there are factors which may account for this). They actually seem to be running at 95% efficiency, which is unheard of. At least for most sites.

My System is one huge 200 pound Outback Inverter/ charge controller all in one.

I don't know of any Outback product that meets that description.

Normally the set-up would be like this:

Panels ---> FM80 ---> batteries ---> FX inverter/charger

The inverter/charger would be connected directly to a MATE so that its functions can be programmed. Without any incoming AC source, it will not act as a charger so any charge settings on the MATE are irrelevant. There is also the more complex "communication" system, which looks like this:

FM80 --- HUB --- FX inverter
MATE

---

^

Where the MATE controls settings for both FM & FX through the hub. This allows shared communication of data and keeps all units in agreement as to Voltages, et cetera. The temp sensor data is also shared, so one connected to the FM80 will also send its info to the FX allow the charger function of that to be accurate.

It is most likely the problem was/is the ABSORB time limit being set to 1 hour. This is far too short. Set the maximum to 4 hours and let the batteries charge. If you see too much bubbling (hard to judge I know) or experience excessive water loss (again, hard to judge) back the ABSORB Voltage down. I think 28.8 may be the highest you want to go with this, not 29.6 (unless that's a temp compensated number).

Outback systems are very good and dependable. But they're also bloody complicated! :p

blackswan555

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

My System is one huge 200 pound Outback Inverter/ charge controller all in one.

More info or a pic of it please, If difficult, have a look at http://outbackpower.com/ and see if you can see it

Have a good one
Tim

Derik

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

My system looks just like the flex power II on the front page of the outback website. I had to mount it vertical and it was a chore, like I said it's close to 200 pounds. However My system is about a year old but it came in a package just like that with a Mate.

I have only seen the amps up to 75 a few times I would say normal is 55-65 in bulk.

I think because of the altitude and lack of clouds the panels work above what they are rated for 215 watts.

So do the Mate and the Charge Controller communicate?? Or do I need them both to read the exact same and if not which one overrides the other?

Thanks a lot for all of the help

Cariboocoot

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

Derik wrote: »

My system looks just like the flex power II on the front page of the outback website. I had to mount it vertical and it was a chore, like I said it's close to 200 pounds. However My system is about a year old but it came in a package just like that with a Mate.

Okay so you have a Flex Power II unit. It's designed to hold two inverter/chargers as well as all the needed input/output breakers. This has a HUb in it, and is capable of connecting to the FM80 in addition to the two inverter/chargers. The question is; did they hook it up?

You should be able to access your FM80 via the MATE, and change the settings. If not, then it isn't connected. I know the programming manual is a daunting thing, but the info is in there for going through the MATE menu to get at the FM. You still should not need to change any charge parameters for the FX unit(s) if they are not being used for charging (no generator).

I have only seen the amps up to 75 a few times I would say normal is 55-65 in bulk.

That's a bit low, but still manageable.

I think because of the altitude and lack of clouds the panels work above what they are rated for 215 watts.

Yes; my 3000 ft. of altitude keeps my panels humming at about 82% efficiency, whereas if I was down in the valley ... Maybe 75%.

So do the Mate and the Charge Controller communicate?? Or do I need them both to read the exact same and if not which one overrides the other?

They should. The MATE should be able to change the FM's settings "remotely", so to speak. You should be able to check this via the FM's own readout. Maybe it isn't connected up. In any case, the FM is doing all the charging so what it says goes.

Derik

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

Yes everything came hooked up and the charge controller seemed to respond to the mate since yesterday when I left I re set the mate and put it in Equalize at the parameters given to me with the mate. Immediatlly the charge controller went from float to bulk and it was at 31 volts and 750 watts. Now this was on the mate screen.

My charge controller screen is way up high since its mounted vertical and I can't read it. I'll get the ladder out when I go back there.

Sorry to be so vague but my house off grid is a ways away and I can't get out there again until Monday.

I did find my oldd Backwoods book and recognize what I have and it's the flexware 500 with the dual inverters and flex max 80 amp controller with the mate. I plugged it in when I got the system and I went through the steps for it to recognize my system and cordinate with it, I just never programmed the mate because the guy at backwoods said I only needed to do the charge controller. He may have not known I had a HUB..?

When I get out there I should know from the latest hydrometer readings if the equailzation worked and if my new settings I put in the mate were acknowledged.

I think the problem was from day one, and my system has always been operating on the Mate settings that were from the factory and it was never programmed. I have checked the batteries a few times every month and have mixed results with the hydrometer at times they are fine and other times about 1210. I am guessing the one hour bulk setting was ok when I wasn't there using more power, and we were getting 10 hours of sun during the summer.

I am not sure why the the guy at Outback had me only program the settings on the charge controller and not the mate. I remember him asking me if I had a generator maybe he didn't realize I had a hub.

The time I have seen the charge controller put out 75 amps is when it was cloudy and then the sun would come out, it would seem to really try to take advantage of the sun when it was partly cloudy, if this makes sense.

We have about 350 days of full sun days so I had hoped not to have to have a generator for charging batteries. The system had been working since May and this is the first time I have seen the Hydrometer low for more than a week or so. I do have the heat on now and the Fridge is always running as well as 4 night lights & we had two cloudy days last week. I'll feel better knowing everything is set up correctly and then go from there.

blackswan555

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

Another question sry ,, Do you have a FNDC installed ? http://outbackpower.com/products/communications/flexnet_dc/ You may be able to see the 5 LED indicators alongside of the breakers ? ( most of the rest of it is hidden inside)
Is there any way you can get the full specification & installed components ?
(I would recommend a FNDC if you do not have, You can then terminate charge on return amps, Time is ok if you have a constant load scenario, But if it varies much, can be way out)

But a quick start,
The mate only stores AGS & HBX internally, Everything else is being read from the components ( FM/ FX/ FNDC) Depending on Firmware versions of both Mate & FM, You can program from mate to variable levels, So best to do initial set-up on FM itself to make sure you get them all,

Have a good one
Tim

ps another way to tell what you have, Re-poll the mate by using the buttons ( cant remember steps but a guess, setup > mate > Comms > repoll,) it will then show connected components, Or unplug > replug mate, It will then show, (pig to get plug out though)

Derik

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

Yes I am pretty sure I have the FNDC at least I have the exact same screens and readout which is on the website for the unit showing power in an power out.

I am pretty sure the mate is working or communicating with the charger since it started to charge when I re set it. I'll have to re check the controller on Monday/Tue to see if they are on the same page but had hoped I could read and adjust all from the Mate since I am working in a small closet with the controller 10 feet up in the air.

I'll call Backwoods tomorrow and get a list of component that came with the FX500

blackswan555

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

Also ask them what has been changed from default on the settings,

Tim

Derik

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

The default for the Mate & Charge Controller was 1 hour bulk/absorb time. I reset it to 2 hours at 29.6 volts on Tuesday. I cut the load back this week to 4.5 KWH (turned heat down) and returned tonight and used the Hydrometer on 5-6 cells, the lowest reading was 1.235 and the highest was 1.255.

So they have come up from the 1.210 of Monday, I am considering equalizing them tomorrow and then leaving the loads low for the next week and check them again.

I left the mate alone and only set the Charge Controller on Tuesday. It seems to have worked and I will forget about the mate for now until I read up on it a bit more, I may have been in the wrong menu when I set the absorb time to 2 hours, anyway it didn't work, until I did the adjustment at the charge controller.

Cariboocoot

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

I think you're on the right track. Definitely equalize them, but first they must be fully charged. 1.255 is a tad low; try and get the "best cell" up a bit more (although this may be right; SG readings are relative to the hydrometer and the "baseline" numbers).

You do know the MATE has a complex menu structure, and that in one part you set the charge settings for the FX and in another for the FM. It sure sounds like the controller and MATE aren't talking to each other. This could be a need for polling, or it could be that nobody ever connected the wire! :roll:

It happens.

Derik

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

I was thinking the same thing and had decided to let them fully charge again today but we had clouds most of the day. I don't think it will hurt to let them charge the next few days and then equalize them on Wed.

Weather is suppose to be clear the next few days, today they hit the bulk setting late and were only there for about an hour.

Cariboocoot

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

Derik wrote: »

I was thinking the same thing and had decided to let them fully charge again today but we had clouds most of the day. I don't think it will hurt to let them charge the next few days and then equalize them on Wed.

Weather is suppose to be clear the next few days, today they hit the bulk setting late and were only there for about an hour.

This is why back-up generators are so important. Even a small, cheap one could push current into the batteries via the FX unit and do the bulk of the charging, leaving the panels to finish off. With just your panels alone you would have trouble getting through Bulk and Absorb and still have enough time left to do a good Equalize charge.

Ralph Day

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

Or to do any eq charging. My 2.1kw of pv will eek out a little eq charging if there had been wind all night to keep the state of charge up overnight.

Ralph

Derik

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

A couple of details I left out, the house is a vacation house. I go there once a week or so and every other weekend. I can shut all power off and leave it that way for a long time cutting power use to 0.

I am also in extreme, Southern CA just 3 miles from the Mexican Border at 3,300 feet elevation. So we get over 6-7 hours of sun in the winter time. I can watch my system and it is making power at 7:00 am and shutting down around 3:00 pm but still making 700 watts or so until 4:00. It's dark here at 5:00pm.

The latest solar study out of San Diego State University had us getting 350 days of sunshine out of 365 days.

Having said that I will have to get a generator when I move out there full time, to run the AC anyway so I'll use it for the batteries as well.

Until then I can set the absorb rate to 3 or even 4 hours we just didn't have much sun on Saturday but it should be in full absorption the rest of this week & was ib Sunday.

We are almost to the shortest day of the year and I had no issues until this month with a 1 hour absorb time, so now that it's two I hope to get the batteries up and if not I'll go to three.

Let me know what you think of my theory.

Thanks
Derik

Derik

Re: Charge controller/ Mate issues

All is well any sulfation is now gone. I changed the absorb time to 3 hours, let it do it's thing for two days and then equalized. I have 1.255 across every cell this is full charge according to the battery guy being the batteries are less than a year old. I also took the readings after several hours of darkness with a load on (frige and a few lights)

My consumption is way less than what I can make now with the absorb time increased and it appears I have full capacity.

I still don't trust the Mate to change settings but used it to equalize.

Thanks for all the help