Bad news in AZ

solar_dave

Arizona Public Service lowered the utility rebates for PV to $2.15 a watt from $3 a watt. They claim they are overwhelmed by demand for the rebates vs the amount of money available.

I heard Salt River Project did the same.

solarix

Re: Bad news in AZ

Well, I admit we were making a pretty penny (a decent income) for installations at the $3.00 level but what really hurts is they are not approving any more applications until at least July.

Cariboocoot

Re: Bad news in AZ

Cheer up: you could live in BC and have no rebates or incentives, have to spend twice as much for equipment, all to try and off-set power at 10 cents per kW/hr.

Oh yeah; we're green. :roll:

ggunn

Re: Bad news in AZ

solar_dave wrote: »

Arizona Public Service lowered the utility rebates for PV to $2.15 a watt from $3 a watt. They claim they are overwhelmed by demand for the rebates vs the amount of money available.

I heard Salt River Project did the same.

I feel your pain; there's a lot of that going around. Seriously, though, for our industry to be sustainable, we eventually have to be able to pull our own weight without having to rely on rebates.

solar_dave

Re: Bad news in AZ

ggunn wrote: »

I feel your pain; there's a lot of that going around. Seriously, though, for our industry to be sustainable, we eventually have to be able to pull our own weight without having to rely on rebates.

I tend to agree, however the utility does get a benefit of not having to build generation and resale of the excess grid tier power at prime rates.

AntronX

Re: Bad news in AZ

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Oh yeah; we're green. :roll:

80% of your electricity is generated by hydro power, that kind of outweighs your lack of sun and rebates, i would think.

Cariboocoot

Re: Bad news in AZ

AntronX wrote: »

80% of your electricity is generated by hydro power, that kind of outweighs your lack of sun and rebates, i would think.

If only it were that simple.
BC Hydro argues that we are now a net importer of electricity, and so it needs to build more hydro units. The controversial "Site C" being a contentious issue up here. They & the Gov't want more input from Independent Power Producers, such as grid-tie solar, but there's no incentive for these IPP's because rates are so low. Some say artificially low.
Meanwhile they give consumers incentives for energy-conserving appliances and such, but charge very low rates. So they want you to conserve and they want 'green' power but they sell cheap and also want to build huge hydro-electric facilities. The Gov't took its PST off energy conservation goods and AE resources, but now is going to put it back on through changing to HST. There's a lot of seemingly conflicting policy here, which is the general problem with energy policy all over.

Sorry about getting too political here. But we have to face it: in many way RE is a political issue, not just a scientific or technical one.

BB.

Re: Bad news in AZ

Hydro has been controversial in California / Western US for decades now... More than a few folks want the dams removed and rivers returned to free run status.

Obviously there are a whole bunch of environmental (fish and plant) issues, as well as secondary affects (more water, more development, containment up stream of water that historically was accessed by folks down stream--sometimes in other countries, etc.).

Tribes Hail Deal to Remove Klamath Dams
California Tribe Blasts Klamath Dam Demolition Deal

Take your pick--There is always some other side of the issue.

-Bill

niel

Re: Bad news in AZ

i've often thought about the situation with dams and being one who lives near rivers i can say they are blocked and manipulated anyway for flood controls so these areas can and should be tapped for power which not all are designated for power generation. i know dams are more obstructive than many would like and, of those equipped, do generate great amounts of electricity from a central location. a thought has occurred to me along the lines of paddle wheels, extra large of course, just being dipped into a river at a point where there is sufficient depth so as to be consistent during lower stream volumes with a turbine properly connected and geared to generate electricity. this need not be all of the way across a river so river traffic is ok to pass, it doesn't have to have a flow of water over the top of it to turn it, and this won't stop fish or otherwise biologically isolate that point of the river from another. true it's a lower output, but this can be done in many places along a river, many more places than one would ever consider putting dams on. this would make the paddle wheel an eco-friendly type of hydro generator.
yes, i've had arguments with many eco-nuts that just plain outright labelled all hydro as evil. i do agree that some dams are not a good idea and it varies with the place and application involved. let's face it many of those dams are in severe disrepair and are in danger of collapse and it is by far cheaper to dip into the river and obviously safer as long as there isn't a secondary purpose of flood control slated for it.
i'm babbling now, but i think you get the idea. i could've went further in detail with my idea on it, but those who understand and can visualize things can see how it might be.

ggunn

Re: Bad news in AZ

BB. wrote: »

Hydro has been controversial in California / Western US for decades now... More than a few folks want the dams removed and rivers returned to free run status.

I would hazard a guess that most of those folks don't live in the former flood plains of those rivers. On the Colorado River (there are two Colorado Rivers, BTW; this is not the one that runs through the Grand Canyon) upstream of Austin there are two dams that provide hydro as well as flood control. I've seen old footage taken before those dams were built of large buildings torn from downtown Austin and floating down the river during floods. I am very glad to have those dams protecting us from that sort of thing as well as providing non-polluting, non-consumptive power.

YMMV, of course.

russ

Re: Bad news in AZ

İ grew up in Oregon - plenty of dams there and in Washington. You get all sorts of fruitcakes wanting to 'protect the environment' without having any idea of what they are talking about.

The hydro projects starting with Grand Coulee in Washington and on down the Columbia have been a great resource for many years and are good for many more.

The sierra club, greenpeace and those bunches of Audi/Volvo conservationists should go work on China for a while. At least the Chinese would know how to handle them!

solar_dave

Re: Bad news in AZ

I remember a similar situation in Denver a few years ago with the two forks damn. Environmentalist shut down the construction. Unless something has changed it put the water supply at risk.

ag4wake

Re: Bad news in AZ

Just saw a show about this on the TV a couple of days ago. They put the first prototype propellor generator into the hudson river. The idea is to place these generators at the bottom of the river like you were saying and they would use the high flow of water to generate electricity. The hudson has a very fast current, and I forget exactly how much they were wanting to generate, but I actually liked concept.

niel wrote: »

a thought has occurred to me along the lines of paddle wheels, extra large of course, just being dipped into a river at a point where there is sufficient depth so as to be consistent during lower stream volumes with a turbine properly connected and geared to generate electricity. this need not be all of the way across a river so river traffic is ok to pass, it doesn't have to have a flow of water over the top of it to turn it, .

russ

Re: Bad news in AZ

There are numerous schemes for placing impellers of some type in rivers to produce power.

Problem is the force available may seem like a lot but to a generator it is not. That is one of the reasons for tall dams. The units İ have seen are all low output devices.

İ see green sites get all excited for a few days when one of these comes up then it just goes away. Once someone tries something like this the greens would go nuts - this would make a mess of a river.

One super problem with rivers and stationary rotating equipment is any trash coming down tends to foul things up.

niel

Re: Bad news in AZ

ag4wake wrote: »

Just saw a show about this on the TV a couple of days ago. They put the first prototype propellor generator into the hudson river. The idea is to place these generators at the bottom of the river like you were saying and they would use the high flow of water to generate electricity. The hudson has a very fast current, and I forget exactly how much they were wanting to generate, but I actually liked concept.

ag4wake
do you remember what the program was called and if applicable what episode as i'd like to see that?

"One super problem with rivers and stationary rotating equipment is any trash coming down tends to foul things up."

russ,
that isn't a problem that can't be worked out as one could give it a protective underwater roof and a rebar like mess roughly in this shape < to minimize debris damages. even dams have to worry about debris, but at least with my idea most of the river is free to have that type of stuff flow by on the sides of it.

nsaspook

Re: Bad news in AZ

russ wrote: »

There are numerous schemes for placing impellers of some type in rivers to produce power.

Problem is the force available may seem like a lot but to a generator it is not. That is one of the reasons for tall dams. The units İ have seen are all low output devices.

İ see green sites get all excited for a few days when one of these comes up then it just goes away. Once someone tries something like this the greens would go nuts - this would make a mess of a river.

One super problem with rivers and stationary rotating equipment is any trash coming down tends to foul things up.

Another problem we have is BIG FAT sea lions eating all the fish at the bypass ladders.

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Sea-lion-at-Bonneville-Dam-killed-86595132.html
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/SeaLion/index.asp

russ

Re: Bad news in AZ

Sorry Niel but İ think that in 10 or in 100 years we will still be waiting - but then İ have been wrong before:D

Low energy input devices are difficult - just see residential wind turbines (İ mean the small and roof top variety).

When you get high winter/spring water flows they do a great job of removing most anything from the water way.

niel

Re: Bad news in AZ

i didn't exactly have only a few kw in mind for the river paddles as 100kw is small potatoes for hydro from a utility point of view. we think small in terms of power with our few kw, but then again we aren't trying to power whole neighborhoods. here in pa the state owns the rivers and they would not allow an individual to tap the power of the river in any way, shape, or form like we tap our roofs that we own. small streams would lack the abilities i had in mind using paddle wheels, but something may be arranged on small streams i would imagine for low power production.

Horus

Re: Bad news in AZ

Fighting these types of power generation is just silly. First off naturally dams do exist. I'm from Canada so I know this very well, beavers can construct a massive dam in just a day or two, and you wouldn't believe how strong they are (I know because we used to knock them down to allow the salmon run to flow more easily. Would take hours with multiple guys, going stick by stick. We liked to fish) So why not harness electricity from them? Here in Ontario our primary source of electricity is hydro. In fact our electricity currently is over 75% emissions free if you count in nuclear energy as well. Not to mention that the fish can still spawn and make it past these dams as when they were built, in most cases, with fish in mind. All the dams near where I grew up had fish ladders. The silly part if they will protect the dam then they will protest the coal plan then the nuclear plant, then be cool with the windmill, then protest the rolling blackouts because there isn't enough power to go around. I;m all for the environment and it's protection, but it has to be approached rationally. These days I think some people just want a cause and will blindly protest what they don't fully understand. Like [please don't go there--BB.]

also edited by niel for the misspelling of dam as the one with an n afterward is an obscenity.