Inverter brands

Solar Guppy

Re: Inverter brands

booboo120 wrote: »

2-stacked Outbacks would be 3500 watts on each leg of 220 plus the surge so they would be even closer to a no problem situation; plus they would not require re-wiring everything for 48 VDC

That 3500 watt rating is fair tail stuff. Sure when the unit is at or below 25C .. the CEC / UL test give the 3600 watt unit a real world rating of 3100 watts and no way would they give a a 2X surge ability ..

http://www.solar-guppy.com/forum/outback-fx2024-inverter-efficiency-t771.html

and a pair of Outback don't match the surge, efficiency or features of the XW ...

As for 24 vs 48V, you should go 48V if your loads are this big any ways ... your IR losses will be huge trying to run 500 amps when running the pump

booboo120

Re: Inverter brands

Now were back to very nervous, The 800 tech guy kept putting me on hold said he was talking to the engineer in BC because the questions were out of his realm, the engineer in BC finally “due to confusion in questions” was connected directly to me “supposedly”. Now I think I am really screwed-up; so let me get to the very basic’s; forget the inverter for a minute, is not 4000 watts on one leg of 220 VAC line to neutral good for 33 amps? If I have a demand of 30 Amps I should be fine? Therefore, a 30-amp inrush should be no problem but I need it twice (2 legs of 220 VAC) plus some surge room to maintain operation of the normal during the inrush. Am I way screwed up somewhere? As far as 48 VDC rewire goes I do not know what I could do for the Bergy Windmill it has a 24 VDC output (100’ in the air) This is why I keep falling back to finding another SW or getting a new inverter set-up, am I also wrong in this?


Garth

Cariboocoot

Re: Inverter brands

No, you're not screwed up. Not so sure about tech support or me for that matter.
For instance I'd said you'd need 4 Outbacks, because I was comparing the surge rating on the XW 6048 to the running capacity of the FX's! Sheesh! But they do require a hub, Mate, plus a transformer to make the 240 x 6 kW output.

You have a favourite device: the SW. You'd like another, because it works and adding one more is the ideal solution. Logical. Only they don't make them anymore. This happens to anything you find and like: it gets discontinued.

You need to stick with the 24 Volt DC to accommodate the turbine, so that eliminates the 6048 and saves you having to redesign your system completely.

4000 Watts / 120 Volts = ~33 Amps. Your max. draw for the pump: 30 Amps. Sounds like a small margin for error, except that the surge rating for the XW 4024 is 8000 Watts - so for the brief moment the pump starts it should handle it even with moderate other loads. If I'm reading Xantrex's specs right, the 4024 is good for 30 Amps and then some across the 240 V poles.

So it would seem your choices are to find another SW and tie it to your existing one, or replace with the XW 4024.

booboo120

Re: Inverter brands

I don’t really have a favorite device but I do like the Xantrex / Trace brand because it has been reliable. The problem comes about in locating another SW plus the cable and the fact that 10 years of use on my current one makes me nervous, that’s what started this whole issue. I was under serious consideration of the XW4024 until I could not get a clear understanding as to it’s operation/capability, that is what brought up the issue regarding the Outback’s. Then the “supposed” engineer stepped in from Xantrex, now the Solar Guppy has contradicted that and made me re-question my insanity. Plus you-all have added the confusion as to difficulty in setting up a pair of SW for 220 VAC operation. All of which is fine and I am grateful for the insight but now the XW issues are very befuddling due to the confusion over the 75% rule per leg because their literature is very poor and inconsistent, the XW manual is also lacking clarification. So I am kind of back to square 1 again.

BB.

Re: Inverter brands

BB120,

I am not sure--but perhaps there is some confusion about what a 120/240 VAC split phase circuit is???

Think of a 240 VAC transformer (Line-Line), with a Center Tap (Neutral, typically grounded in North American homes connected to utility power)...

[FONT=Fixedsys]Center Tapped Transformer (Split Phase 120/240 VAC)

-----)||(-----L1
     )||(
     )||(-----N
     )||(
-----)||(-----L2
   [/FONT]

The rated current in the transformer, for example, 30 amps would be for Line1 to Line2 or Line1 to Neutral, or Line2 to Neutral.

So... If you have L1 to L2 at 240 VAC at 20 amps:

P=240 VAC * 20 Amps = 4,800 Watts

If you have L1 to Neutral or L2 to Neutral at 20 amps:

P=120 VAC * 20 Amps = 2,400 watts

And, for the sake of argument--lets say you have a 20 amp load on L1 to Neutral, and a second 20 amp load on L2 to Neutral--Each circuit would be running at 2,400 watts for a total 4,800 watt output.

The Neutral wire in this 2x 120 volt load (equal currents) actually carries no current and the two loads look to the transformer as a single 240 VAC 20 amp load.

The 75% limitation (appears to be) based on the total inverter output power that states that 75% of the total power (continuous or surge) is available out a single L-N connection (note that the 120 VAC current would then be 150% of the rated 240 VAC current is only present on one L-N leg).

I agree with the comments about manuals (in general)--they always seem to have a lot of repetitive fluff and never really discuss many of the useful technical details--Or the critical details get lost in the verbiage.

-Bill

Note: I am speaking for my (limited) understanding of the XW Hybrid Inverter--Not for any vendor or our host.

Cariboocoot

Re: Inverter brands

Keep in mind that the 30 Amp draw of the pump will be a momentary thing; on start-up only. And that the 4024 supposedly can handle 8000 Watts surge.

Since you're going to spend money anyway, you could always buy the XW and use it just for the pump and keep the SW going for everything else: nothing says you can't run two inverters off the same bank. Then if the SW fails you can switch everything to the XW and if it can't handle it, buy another one. You could even 'off-load' minor power devices to another, cheaper inverter.

It isn't that there's no solution, it's that there's so many.

booboo120

Re: Inverter brands

Ok I think I am a little clearer in my understanding. The way I interpret what you are saying is that the SW is 4000 watts leg to neutral plus surge ability. So (2) of an SW would give me 8000 watts (66 amps) of 120 VAC to neutral, 33 amps per leg plus the surge ability; or 33 amps leg to leg plus the surge ability making 220 VAC. Whereas the 4000 watt XW because the way it operates is 4000 watts (18 amps) at 220 leg to leg plus it’s surge ability or 75% (basically 3000 watt capability on 1 leg to neutral (25 amps). If this is correct then (2) SW4024’s would have 25% more output then 1 XW 4024. If I can find a SW4024 for $2,000.00 plus a cable, I would get 30% more power at 120 VAC then a New XW 4024 for 30% less in cost. That brings about the life of equipment question to the clear forefront in that I do not have any idea in the estimated life of either SW or XW units. One could presume that the life of and SW would be far greater then that of an XW because of the heaver construction and older proven technology. Plus one would think that since I would be working the 2 SW’s less than an XW it should add X amount to the life span. So I would still surmise in order to be fairly equivalent to the SW’s I would need to purchase 2, XW’s raising the cost way up. Now life span becomes a very serious issue, because one could easily presume that the Xantrex people will do the same thing with the XW as the SW and it will be discontinued 10-15 years after birth therefore you would want to buy 2, now.

Garth

booboo120

Re: Inverter brands

I had not considered this possability, would I then only use the charger off of the SW and what about control set-up if the battries were low I guss the SW could call for the gen set to rune thus the XW would be supplied via the battery charging circut!
Garth

Solar Guppy

Re: Inverter brands

Pretty much correct but on the life thingy ...

The weight different is typology, the SW is not a sine-wave, its a multi-transformer stepping design, that all the extra weight. The SW has also had its fair share of issues over its life and to expect units that are already close to end-of-life to perform as long as a new XW is unrealistic.

the XW is standard 5 year warranty, best in the business

As to whats next, absolutely, every 5-10 years expect a new product cycle, all electronics manufactures do this ... just getting the parts to MAKE an old design is problematic, The SW couldn't be made today even if you wanted to, there are parts I'm aware of that can't be found at any price in it ( I knew the guy responsible for just this, trying to keep manufacturing going on the SW ).

Personally, I'd expect another 5-8 years of availability of the current generation of units, in just about every other market you lucky to have things more than a year or two before a new model

BB.

Re: Inverter brands

Availability of parts over time is an issue with any electronic design.

I worked in Telecom (voicemail systems)--and we had perfectly good (and profitable) equipment that was (at the time) approaching 10 years old. And they spent a lot of time trying to local stocks of EOL components (circuit boards where hand taped--and would require a new layout on a computer just to change to the latest package/processor etc.). The company would probably be still making the same product today if they could get the parts.

Embedded controller designs usually have much less computing requirements and need for expansion of capabilities over their lifetime (a phone is a phone). But the original Z80 processor (in the voicemail system) -- has long been relegated to a museum.

However, there is nobody today that would purchase a Z80 computer today for 10x the price of 2lb netbook computer.

Electronics will fail (package failures letting in moisture and capacitors drying out, failure in solder joints, etc.). The two major driving forces for failures probably being thermal cycling (hot, cold, hot, cold) and elevated temperatures (for every 10C increase in temperature, the life of a typical component would be cut by 1/2--20C rise, 1/4 life, etc.).

Unfortunately, the price of generating your own power is maintaining, repairing, and upgrading your equipment every 5-10 years.

The new stuff--in general--can be made to last much longer, more functions, and less expensive (with respect to inflation) than the older technologies (the price of copper, aluminum and steel has gone way up)... And generally, the fewer and smaller the components are, the more reliable you can make the equipment (fewer points of failure, less thermal stresses on smaller components).

In a way--it is consumer demand for better, cheaper, faster product that is driving the obsolescence of the older components.

My first boss designed much of the electronics for the Osborn 1 and 2 computer:

[FONT=Fixedsys][SIZE=2]Osborne 1

Introduced:    April 1981
Price:     US $1,795
Weight:    24.5 pounds
CPU:       Zilog Z80 @ 4.0 MHz
RAM:       64K RAM
Display:   built-in 5" monitor
           53 X 24 text
Ports:     parallel / IEEE-488
           modem / serial port
Storage:   dual 5-1/4 inch, 91K drives
OS:        CP/M[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica][SIZE=2]While the Osborne was a good deal at $1795, it also came bundled with about $1500 of free software: 
CP/M System 
CP/M Utility 
SuperCalc spreadsheet application 
WordStar word processing application with MailMerge 
Microsoft MBASIC programming language 
Digital Research CBASIC programming language 
 
The Osborne was a huge overnight success, with sales reaching 10,000 units a month. 
In September 1981, Osborne Computer Company had its first US$1 million sales month.  [/SIZE][/FONT]

Vs what we can get today:

Toshiba
10.1" Notebook computer $329.99

Processor & Memory:

• Intel® ATOM Processor N280 (1.66GHz)
• 1GB DDR2 SDRAM

Drives:

• 160GB Hard Drive
• NO OPTICAL DRIVE INCLUDED

Display:

• 10.1" Wide WSVGA 1024x600
• LED Backlight

Graphics & Video:

• Intel Graphics Media Accelerator GMA950

Communications:

• Wireless 802.11 b/g
• 10/100 Ethernet
• Integrated Webcam and microphone

Audio:

• Integrated speaker

Card Slots:

• 3-in-1 (SD,SDHC,MMC)

Ports:

• 1x Headphone out
• 1x Mic in
• 3x USB 2.0 ports with USB Sleep and Charge
• 1x RJ-45 port (LAN)
• 1x RGB

Operating System:

• Microsoft Windows XP

Power Supply:

• Battery: 6-cell Lithium-Ion battery

Additional Information:

• Dimensions: 10.4" L x 1.0-1.27" H x 7.6" D
• Weight: Approximately 2.9 lbs.

Of course--this does not make the cost of a new Inverter system any cheaper for you... But an interesting look back.

-Bill

Cariboocoot

Re: Inverter brands

booboo120 wrote: »

I had not considered this possability, would I then only use the charger off of the SW and what about control set-up if the battries were low I guss the SW could call for the gen set to rune thus the XW would be supplied via the battery charging circut!
Garth

Not really. Unless the batteries are severely depleted they'll have enough power to mitigate the surge on starting the pump. I'm not sure what the charge rating is for the SW, but if it can meet the 20 Amp draw of pump running then the net effect on the batteries would be zero. You could always switch off the pump so it can't start when using the generator.

Incidentally, there's another thread on here about an SW 4024 that won't properly inter-act with a generator. It is most likely a failure in the SW. Keep that in mind; nothing lasts forever. We all know our systems, no matter how well designed and built, are going to suffer failures at some point and need to be up-dated. It's part of the cost of being off-grid.

Dave Angelini

Re: Inverter brands

A friend of mine has a 48V Bergey wind gen so they are available. I doubt the OP would have any problem with starting a deep well pump with an XW4024 as long as the battery can handle it and, there is not some rediculous multiple battery string installation.

Cariboocoot

Re: Inverter brands

Dave has just brought up another good point: batteries. To run that 2 1/2 HP will take approximately 120 Amps on the DC side (depends on efficiency losses). So how long will the pump need to run each day? And then when you've got enough battery to handle that, have you got enough PV to recharge them?

One thing leads to another ...

booboo120

Re: Inverter brands

I have 2400 watts of solar panels, 1480 amp hours of battery, 1000 watts wind, well pump currently needs to be run about 1 hour a week. I have a 1600 gal tank at the top of the hill takes about 2.5 hours to fill from empty, but I have rarely seen much over 1.5 hours of fill required if i top it every week, my intent was to top it off more often automatically and then it would run a less amount of time between starts. the second inverter suggestion really intrigues me.

Solar Guppy

Re: Inverter brands

Go with the XW-4024 then, you'll get to learn what It can do first hand and allow you to tweak your installation as need be. Get the SCP, you really be impressed what you can gather for information from it and how the XW can be configured.

Also, pumps are probably the lowest cost item in this system, you should really consider a 240V pump ... it will help with allowing you to add other loads, you may even find it can handle everything and retire the SW for a backup if the need should arise

Cariboocoot

Re: Inverter brands

Solar Guppy - You missed a bit. It is a 240 V pump; 2 1/2 HP.

booboo120 - Sounds like you've got enough battery power to do the job, as long as you've got a couple hundred Amp/hrs to spare per week. Normally I recommend people cycle pumps less often, but once a week is really few and far between! I think you're right to have it come on more often: it will be easier on the electric system than asking it to come up with all that power all at once.

You definitely want Pure Sine Wave on that pump: it's big and expensive and at the bottom of a very deep hole. Replacement would not be fun.

Solar Guppy

Re: Inverter brands

With all the discussion on loading only one leg, I thought that was the pump needing 120V. If the pump is on both legs and he balances the remaining loads between the phases it should work well.

Personally, I would want the XW-6048 with that large of an inductive load, but I understand the OP is currently all 24V

booboo120

Re: Inverter brands

It sounds like I should go with 1 XW4024 and use it to run the pump for now then later on "within 1 year or so" get another 4024 and keep the SW as a back-up. My batteries never drop below 80% per the Bogart meter excepting occasionally in the winter during a bad week and the windmill should eliminate that problem.
Thanks for all the input

Garth

Brock

Re: Inverter brands

Jumping in late in the game but after reading all this I would do exactly what you’re planning right now. Add a separate XW4024 to you existing SW. My only reservation is as you loads may increase over time a 48v bank would ultimately be a better choice. If for no other reason the smaller wiring on the bank side. I would also think the starting load on the DC side of a 24v inverter would be more than twice that of a similar sized 48v inverter.

As solar guppy said most of the time it isn't the inverter that can't handle the loads it's the battery or the DC lines from the bank to the inverter. A 30 amp starting surge at 240v is likely over 300 amps on the DC side at 24v. So the higher battery voltage with the correct wiring will get you a better surge capability in the end.

I was leaning towards suggesting rewiring your whole system for an XW6048, but since you have a working SW I would just add an XW4024. Later you could move everything to the XW if the SW failed or add a second XW and keep everything working.

blwncrewchief

Re: Inverter brands

A little late also, but I have test run my 2.5 ton 10 SEER a/c off my XW4024 and it started it and ran it fine. This should be as bad or worse than your well pump. I was watching my SCP on start up and saw 7.5KW and 317 amps dc I ran it for 30 minuets and was pulling right at 3.8KW total load on the inverter.

Just Pat

Re: Inverter brands

Hello all,

My first post.

What became of the dilema here?

I've found myself in the same boat with my SW4024 and a CNC 220v lathe I aquired to run in my shop. Been off grid fo 10 years now, and wished I would have purchased 2-SW 4024's.

Now I don't have enough amps.

Kindest regards,

Pat

BB.

Re: Inverter brands

Pat,

Welcome aboard! And perhaps you want to create a new thread with your requirements (120/240 VAC power, amps, watts, peak, average, etc.). And if you can use a 48 volt battery bank at this time...

Depending on your answers (and requirements) there are probably a few different solutions you can look at (none of them cheap though--The Xantrex SW product line is long obsolete now and difficult to repair).

-Bill

Just Pat

Re: Inverter brands

Started here:

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=40362#post40362