Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

BB.

TVA's Generations Partners Program...

I cannot tell if the program is confusing, the article is confused, or the guy who installed the 10 kW GT system is confused.

You decide:

Andy Davenport was excited that he could get 15 cents for every kilowatt of power his newly installed solar panels produced - until he started breaking down his bill.

The Washington County resident, who set up a three-kilowatt solar system in his backyard last year, is one of 71 Generation Partners, a mix of residential and commercial customers that TVA pays through local distributors for the electricity they generate from renewable sources such as wind and sun. Davenport also is one of several customers who say the incentive isn't all it's cracked up to be.

As advertised, the program currently pays 15 cents per kilowatt hour of power to residential customers and 20 cents per kilowatt hour to commercial customers. Generation Partners is being revamped to pay the current wholesale rate for power plus a 12-cent premium for customers with solar systems. (Wind-generated power receives 3 cents in addition to the local wholesale price.)

From reading through the article, comments, and looking at Generation Partner's sample bill...

I don't think anyone, quoted, commentors, and/or author, understand the system at all...

Basically, he is paid $0.15 per kWhr for ALL GENERATED POWER, and for any power he uses, he pays $0.11 per kWhr (plus a $6.09 monthly meter charge from sample bill; or perhaps $0.093 per kWhr--from article) for ALL POWER CONSUMED.

The GP participant (from TnAndy's comments--seems to be the "Andy" in the article)--He does not appear to agree that he is buying power at retail and selling it for more than wholesale. Which--to me--is a good deal. Apparently, he wants to buy his own power at wholesale?

If I buy 900, I pay 9.3 cents retail rate.

If I generate 100, I pay 9.3 cents retail rate, because they "assume" I used it all.

They pay 15 cents for the 100hrs, then take back the 9.3, leaving me with 5.7....less than TVA wholesale rate.

But I can see WHY you are confused.....even some of the TVA people I spoke to can't tell you how it works.....ahahahaaaaa

Seem all pretty straight forward to me... The GP is paid MORE for the power he generates than the power GP uses. Yet he disconnected his GT system for now.

Moral of the story--read and understand your GT/Net Metering plan. It is confusing, and if there is any "misunderstanding" in interpreting the rules--the "benefit of the doubt"--will be in the utility's favor.

All of the Solar RE / GT stuff--it is just green washing. There is little environmental gains from these very small programs (~1% or so maximum of utility generation capacity for planned solar GT systems).

Generation Partners

• What: Technical support, incentives for installation of renewable generation systems
• Participants: 71
• Monthly kilowatt hours generated: 25,720
• Sites installed: 68
• Distributors with installed sites: 33
• More information: www.TVA.gov/greenspowerswitch/partners

25,720 kwHrs per month--perhaps 25-50 homes worth of power (assuming 500-1,000 kWhrs per month power per average home).

Or, from 2007:

The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore devoured nearly 221,000 kWh—more than 20 times the national average.

Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh—guzzling more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore’s average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.

Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore’s energy consumption has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to 18,400 kWh per month in 2006.

Gore’s extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill. Natural gas bills for Gore’s mansion and guest house averaged $1,080 per month last year.

Or all of the solar RE power generated by the entire TVA.gov program is enough to power just one "Al Gore" home.

-Bill

Solar Guppy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Guy wants to make 15 cents for all kWh and he does

Guy pays 9 cents for kWh of all energy used on premise

Both are separate meters, he is getting exactly what he should

He is actually doing better that single meter net meter customers, as with a single meter you only get credit when your net is selling, the person in this article if he used all the energy on site and it was a net even would get 5 cents kwh with NO BILL FOR HIS USAGE ...

So what is the problem?

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Me thinks there is not enough basic science, math, shop classes being taught out there...

From "TnAndy's" comment on the article:

If I buy 900, I pay 9.3 cents retail rate.

If I generate 100, I pay 9.3 cents retail rate, because they "assume" I used it all.

They pay 15 cents for the 100hrs, then take back the 9.3, leaving me with 5.7....less than TVA wholesale rate.

But I can see WHY you are confused.....even some of the TVA people I spoke to can't tell you how it works.....ahahahaaaaa

Well--Duh... He did "use it all"... He used 900 kWhrs and pumped 100 kWhrs back into the grid. For a net consumption of 800 kWhr with a $0.057 per kWhr payment for just having pumped 100 kWhrs into the grid using solar panels (vs any other form of generation).

I still do not understand what he thinks should be the "correct" method to bill him. I think he thinks he should more money back for the "spread" -- The only two ways that could happen is if he is paid more for generation or pays less for consumption...

He is already buying a "retail" and selling back at more than retail... A good deal for him--and a bad deal for any "real" business (buy high, sell low).

-Bill

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

AH, I see everybody missed the POINT of the article, which is NOT whether is a good deal or not, but that TVA touts "We will pay you 15 cents for your Green Power because we want to encourage it !"

Not "we will pay you 15 cents less the retail rate, meaning you net 5.7, which is about 1/3 of what you thought you were going to get and going down all the time as retail rates go up....."

That doesn't come up until you manage to figure it out from the bill.....or go back and read the contract language, having figured out the bill, which now appears much clearer.

If I figure out a way to post one of my bills ( which looks nothing like the KUB bill ), I will.

Solar Guppy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

huh?

they pay the full 15 cents kWh for every kWh sold to the utility, its measured from its own meter and the customer get 100% of that credited to his account

there is no "net of 5.7 cents" happening as its NOT NET METERED

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

You are, I think, confusing net metering with GROSS AND NET in financial terms.

GROSS being a figure reduced by some amount to give you NET....as in you earn 50k a year GROSS, but they remove 15K in taxes, leaving you with a NET of 35k.



My bill is determined by:

1. Adding billing meter + generation meter = total hours for which I am billed, at 9.3 cents retail rate for BOTH of those.

2. Then, I am credited 15 cents for the generation meter hours.

15 cents ( Gross ) minus 9.3 cents retail I paid in step 1. = 5.7 cents NET IN MY POCKET.

What part of that isn't clear ?


and again, do not tell me what a deal this is.....THAT is not the point.....the POINT is it is NOT WHAT THEY ADVERTISE, nor is is easy to derive from the bill.

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

TnAndy wrote: »

1. Adding billing meter + generation meter = total hours for which I am billed, at 9.3 cents retail rate for BOTH of those.

I still don't understand... For example--say you use 1,000 kWhrs and Generate 1,000 kWhrs... Which is true?

a) 1,000 kWhrs billing + 1,000 kWhrs Gen = 2,000 kWhrs "billed"???

Or:

b) 1,000 kWhrs bill + (-)1,000 kWhrs Gen = 0 kWhrs "billed"/used

Normally, I would (from the article) expect to see:

1,000 kWhrs * $0.093 / kWhr = $93 (used)
1,000 kWhrs * $0.15 / kWhr = (-) $150 (generated)
Meter costs = $6 per month
==============================
=(-) $51 credit / cash positive for month

In California--a true Net Metered state (one electrical meter) for residential installations (is more complex if >10,000 watt--California aims for $0.00 billing over the year. Cannot get cash/check for >$0 in "bank"):

Meter spins forwards 1,000 kWhr (night), and spins "backwards" 1,000 kWhrs (sunny days)... So:

1,000 kWhrs - 1,000 kWhr = 0 kWhrs used
$6 per month meter charge
=============================
$6 total bill (payable in 20 days)

If, for example with net metering and flat rate residential. Summer example:

300 kWhrs used - 500 kWhrs gen = (-) 200 kWhrs
200kWhr * $0.12 per kWhr = (-)$24 credit
$6 per month
==================================
Pay $6; (-)$24 in the "bank"

Now the winter example:

500 kWhrs used - 200 kWhrs gen = 200 kWhrs
200kWhr * $0.12 per kWhr = $24 charge
$6 per month
==================================
Pay $6; (-)$24 + $24 = $0 in the "bank"

Over one year, the (-)+(+) (as dollars) is added up... If $$>0, I pay balance at end of year (or every month--my choice). if $$$<0 (money in the "bank")--at the end of the year, the utility will set balance to "$0" (zero).

Now, in California--there was an "issue" created by PG&E (Northern California gas/electric company).

Basically, we have tiered rates. The more power you use, the higher the rates (from $0.09 to $0.60 per kWhr for residential).

The "right" (original) way to calculate was to Net out the tiered power usage (use 500 kwhrs per month, Generate 500 kWhrs per month; tier usage is 0 kWhrs -- 0-~300 kWhrs per month is base tier.).

For a while, PG&E computed the tier as 500 kWhrs use, 500 kWhrs generated, put customer in 1,000 kWhr tier (maximum billing--$0.40-$0.60 per kWhr). Details are much more complex--but came down to the "penalty" billing (sort of charging for both using power and generating power). Eventually was reverted to original plan.

I should always hold any news article as being at least 50% wrong (hence the reason I asked the question -- was the article or the customers confused). Has proven to be the case in anything that I have direct knowledge--sometimes hard to remember when reading another article on a subject that I do not have direct knowledge of...

I gather you are TnAndy / the Andy mentioned in the article.

Understand the complexity of the billing... 3 years ago, I would get a 12 page (8.5" x 11") statement of account. And still get a second 3-4 page power bill (the one I actually paid too). They have reduce the big package to a 3 page statement--but it is still complex to figure out a bill if you are above the baseline tier (I have not had that pleasure yet :roll: ).

-Bill

Solar Guppy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Maybe if you post the bill ( minus any private info ) that would help

One would expect with dual meter, the "value of energy" part is calculated for each meter, then summed for the combined bill, not sum the energy, then pay 15 cents if more went out and less if more was used on premise.

Otherwise, no point in two meters as a single will by default do the summing for you

The article and the explanations were clear as mud that I read

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

a) 1,000 kWhrs billing + 1,000 kWhrs Gen = 2,000 kWhrs "billed"???


That one.

I get billed for ALL total hours on both the billing meter and the generation meter.

They would assume I used all 2000 hours, even though my historical average for 30 years has been about 900 hrs/month.

The billing meter is NOT bi-directional...

SO, now the question is, in the above example,: why am I paying for 1100 hours I probably did NOT use ?

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

So, if:

a) 1,000 kWhrs billing + 1,000 kWhrs Gen = 2,000 kWhrs "billed"

then:

1,000 kWhrs * $0.15 per kWhr = (-)$150 (generated)
2,000 kWhrs * $0.093 / kWhr = $186 (billed)
$6 per month meter charge
=====================================
$42 monthly billing?

Whereas, your original billing (no solar) would have been:

1,000 kWhrs * $0.093 = $93 billed
$6 meter charge
=======================
$99 monthly bill

Is this what you were seeing?

-Bill

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Copy of this January bill.....February has same retail rate....March it decreased slightly....( TVA quarterly adjusts )

Appears I used and was charged for 918 hrs, right ?

Nope.

You have to take the generation credit, divide by .15 to get the number of generation meter hours ( 251), then add that to the 918, and divide that into the energy charge to get the retail rate of 9.3 cents/kwhr...which is what it was that month ( TVA adjusts quarterly for fuel ) for our local distributor.

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Charging you for "both" directions was a version of the problem that PG&E did with us in Northern California.

And, some people also disconnected because of the explotation of a (over complex) regulatory / billing structure.

In California, very roughly, 50% of the electric bill is for the "Power" and the other 50% is "cost of lines" (most of it was distribution, a little for transmission costs, and the rest, a few percent, was the misc. stuff regulators like to stuff in bills).

So--at the very least, the "generate" rate of charge should not be $0.093 per kWhr--but only their distribution costs ($0.093 - $0.047 per kWhr for cost of generated power) would be billed (technically, you may be using their lines to send power to the homes next door).

However, the billing that they are using (two seperate meters, one on home, one on PV array) does not properly account for a $$$ charge for "using the lines"... If, your home usage exactly matched your generated usage (i.e., you truly used 100% of the power at home, and did not use any distribution capacity)--they are not properly metering your line usage for determining the "distribution" charges.

I agree with Solar Guppy--it is very possible that they are doing illegal billing.

In California--for business users, they charge a Line Reservation Charge--basically the top 15 minute period in the last year (as I understand) is charged per month. And, roughly, the other 1/2 of the bill works out to be the actual power consumed charges.

For residentail the reservation charges and usage charges are all in one per kWhr charge.

-Bill

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Guys, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know what's legal or not.....but the way I read my generation partner contract, they ARE billing according to that.....

The pertinent part:

"I understand that effective with the billing period when generation from the Qualifying System into Distributor's electric system begins and for each period thereafter, my power bill will be determined by adding the net kWh energy measured on the Generation Meter to the net kWh energy measured on the Billing Meter." ( my underlining )

As I said, my whole gripe was the lack of clarity on the 15 cents.....

Which as of July 1st, means nothing anyway...they have, I suspect, realized this deal wasn't that much of a deal according to the hype they put out.....and the "new deal" ( so I hear thru the grapevine, nothing in writing yet ) is 12 cents floating over whatever your local retail rate EVER is thru the 10 year period of the contract.........so at least it will be an 'honest' 12 cents....about twice what I'm getting now.....

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

TnAndy,

That is nasty... It appears that you are being charged for sum of both meters. That would be illegal.

But, to bury it -- they list no specifics on the bill (per kWhr charges * usage = billed).

From the Johnson City Power Website FAQ:

Question 8:
What percentage of my electric bill accounts for actual electricity use?

Answer 8:
About 80 percent of your monthly electric bill is purchased power from the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). The remaining 20 percent represents JCPB’s operation and maintenance expense, depreciation and taxes, interest expense and capital reinvestment.

So, in their case, they would argue that your Generation "Network" usage charge would be ~80% of 9.3 cents per kWhr or 7.44 per kWhr (playing devil's advocate). I would argue that they do not know how much power you are using from their network for proper billing.

Residential Rates:

ELECTRIC RATES Effective January 1, 2009

RESIDENTIAL - RS (Rate 122)
CUSTOMER CHARGE $8.01
ALL KILOWATT HOURS 7.903 CENTS PER KWH
*Total cents per kWh 8.764 (includes FCA)
...
What is the “kWh charge?”

The kWh charge is the total amount of electricity your household consumes. For example, the kWh charge is the cost of the electricity used to power all your electric appliances; such as, heating and cooling systems, water heating, televisions, lighting, washers and dryers, refrigerators and freezers, and other miscellaneous appliances.
Electricity is measured via a meter on the side of your home in kWh units. A watt is a basic measure of electricity. A kilowatt is one-thousand watts. For example, a 100 watt light bulb used for 10 hours equals one kilowatt hour.

From their Generation Partner page--there is little information:

The customer will then begin receiving credits for energy generated during each billing cycle on their monthly energy bill.

Does not say they will charge you for generating power--which is effectively what they are currently doing.

-Bill

PS: It is possible they have an error in their biliing computer/programming.

Was very common with PG&E... My first solar assited bill went from ~$25 a month for electricity (I owed) to $188 for my first (partial month) solar electric bill (that I owed)--even though I generated more power than I used...

Turned out that the billing computer assumed the amount I generated was an error in meter reading by the meter reader... So it kept adding 10, 100, 1000 to my kWhr meter until they got a "positive" power reading. Then they billed that.

The computer attempted to "correct" my bill because my account was not flagged as being a Grid Tied solar installation (i.e., net metered with both a + kWhr or a - KWhr monthly reading possible).

Others have told me that this was a common mistake with PG&E (~3 years ago) and almost everyone had to call to get straightened out.

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

That IS the whole bill....all one page of it.

The "previous" and "present" readings are the billing meter......918 hours billed.

There is no reading for the generation meter ( on the bill )...you have to do exactly what I did, and divide 15 cents into the credit amount to extrapolate the hours generated......which matches our readings and recording of system output.

THEN when you add 918 + 251 = 1169, you see I am being charged retail for the hours off both meters.....exactly per contract language......then the gen credit comes off, and the amount left is the bill.


Gross-retail= net in my pocket of 5.7 cents....not 15.

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Solar Guppy wrote: »

Bill,

looking closer at the bill, he is NOT being charged double, look at the last month and same amount 1 year ago.

Add the billing meter hours ( 918 ) + the generation meter hours ( 251 ), and you get 1169. Multiply 1169 x .09316/hr retail rate and you get my energy charge of $108.91

Solar Guppy wrote: »

1 year ago he was using 1100 kWh ... with no solar!

He is getting full credit for solar ( January is a bad month for solar ) so 37 bucks seems right for a 3kw solar system

You can't use last year's amount as Gospel.....especially in winter....notice this bill was for 29 days....some billing periods are for as much as 35 days...almost a full week longer.....( my March bill is that way ), so any comparison of one year to another isn't worth much.....you'd have to average 5-10 years of the same month to come up with something close....


But you see WHY the billing is confusing now......ahahhaaaaaa.....heck, I've even had some of TVA's marketing people try to convince me I'm getting a full 15 cents NET for my generation hours.....they don't even understand their own program.

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Question about how your meters are wired.

a) Is each meter directly connected to the utility feed (in parallel).

b) Or, is one connected to the utility feed ("billing meter") and the second meter (generation) meter is connected to the billing meter then to the solar array?

From reading the contract statement--it sounds like "b)"... Which would be "closer" to the true accounting.

Basically, they are charging you for your total usage (which is your home load + the load supplanted by the solar array; then they "give" you a credit for the solar array generation).

So your home is really "burning" 1169 kWhrs--which is being paid for at $0.093 per kWhr. And you are Generating 251 kWhrs, and they are giving you $0.15 per kWhr credit for that amount.

I could see b) as actually being somewhat fair.

If your meters are connected as "a)" then this is not right.

You are actually getting a better deal that those of us with "net metering" are.

What if you generate more than you consume? Do you get a "check" or just a credit for your bill (basically net metered)?

-Bill

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Solar Guppy wrote: »

Sorry, what I see is the Meter read 918, that what you got billed for ... ( were the start end values correct ? )

You got a credit of $37+ ... that's the solar , if you want, you can go read the METER to know the solar generation

no where on the bill are you charged for both, that is some fuzzy math your inventing

the 1100 number was last month usage, not part of any monetary number on the bill

And finally NO NO NO, you can't use past bills for validating your fuzzy math. Use actual reading off the two meters, that is the ONLY way, two days or month are never the same for either generation or usage. As I see the bill, your getting exactly what you should

ahahahaaaaaaa....ok...this is getting almost ridiculous. "I" am not using the previous year's reading for anything....forget it....doesn't matter....YOU brought it up.....

Yes....the 918 is the correct amount on the billing meter....previous and present correct.

Now...divide 918hrs into my energy charge of $108.91 and tell me what I am paying per kilowatt hour....bearing in mind the retail rate is .09316/hr.....and when you don't GET .09316 on your calculator, why not ?????

Not my math that is fuzzy......has my TI calculator finally revolted ? ahahahaaaaa

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

BB. wrote: »

Question about how your meters are wired.

a) Is each meter directly connected to the utility feed (in parallel).

b) Or, is one connected to the utility feed ("billing meter") and the second meter (generation) meter is connected to the billing meter then to the solar array?

From reading the contract statement--it sounds like "b)"... Which would be "closer" to the true accounting.

Basically, they are charging you for your total usage (which is your home load + the load supplanted by the solar array; then they "give" you a credit for the solar array generation).

So your home is really "burning" 1169 kWhrs--which is being paid for at $0.093 per kWhr. And you are Generating 251 kWhrs, and they are giving you $0.15 per kWhr credit for that amount.

I could see b) as actually being somewhat fair.

If your meters are connected as "a)" then this is not right.

You are actually getting a better deal that those of us with "net metering" are.

What if you generate more than you consume? Do you get a "check" or just a credit for your bill (basically net metered)?

-Bill

Bill..."b" is correct. Yes, it IS better than net metering....by 5.7 cents/hr. My gripe was it's just not the 15 cents/hr they tout.

We would get a check at the end of the year should it ever come to that ( probably will not, even with the new addition of 6 more panels in April and finally getting a tracking controller that works.....)

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Solar Guppy wrote: »

Your 908 kWh is correct, you even say so and matches the meters.. the reason when the $116+ cost is divided by 908 is more like 12 cents kWh is TAXES AND FEES

The 9 cents you keep quoting is before taxes and fees ... nothing to do with your solar

SO, last post, your bill is correct, you are getting your 15 cents for your generation and they are only billing you for the actual usage on your home ... that's what the BILL shows.

ahahahaaaaaaaaa......OK....quit inventing stuff.....

First off, it's 918kwhrs and $108.91


Second, there are no "taxes and fees" in the energy charge.....that is JUST FLAT THE AMOUNT I PAY FOR THE NUMBER OF KILOWATT HOURS...THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT THE 'ENERGY CHARGE'......FEEL FREE TO CALL THE JOHNSON CITY POWER BOARD AND ASK: 423-282-5272.....ask what the retail rate for power was in January, 2009....heck, ask 'em anything you like.....

We actually pay NO taxes at all, (on residential.....I DO pay sales tax on a commercial meter I have on another building, and it is line item listed ) and the only fee is the "customer" charge of $8.01 which you pay whether you use power or not......


Now that your calculator confirms that 918 into $108.91 is NOT .09316 /kwhr.....do this simple exercise....

Add the 918 hours on the billing meter to the 251 hours on the generation meter and divide THAT into the energy charge of $108.91 and see what you get.....

.09316......which just happens to be the retail rate.....thus, I AM paying retail for ALL 1169 hours from combined from BOTH meters.....will you grant me that ?

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Guppy, I gotta run right now......but afterwhile, I'm digging out a bill and posting it to show you are incorrect....because I did do EXACTLY THAT for the month just previous to the solar going online.

The Kilowatt hours divided into the energy charge IS the retail rate we pay.

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

SG,

TnAndy is confirming that the Billing meter faces the utility, and the generation meter is "down stream" (in series following) of the Billing meter.

So, his total "energy usage" is Billing + Generation Meter usage = True household consumption (times $0.093 per kWhr). [excluding solar generation]

So

Then, he gets the Generation Credit * $0.15 per kWHr (and his bill + accounting statement from JCPC seems to confirm).

my power bill will be determined by adding the net kWh energy measured on the Generation Meter to the net kWh energy measured on the Billing Meter.

Actually, looking at the statement again--they use "Net" for both the generation meter and the billing meter... Does not clarify that the Billing Meter is on the utilty feed, and the Generation Meter is on branch circuit "behind" the Billing Meter.

Actually, from my point of view--a very good deal. And, TnAndy installs a LARGE ARRAY and generates more than his household usage--he will get a clear $0.15 per kWhr "profit" on his power (will this be reported to the government on a 1099 tax form for income purposes?).

Assuming "b)" (series Billing Meter first, then household loads + Generation meter branched off of Billing Meter/master box)--I think the program is quite fair (and is "better" than flat rate Net Metering. We have / are forced to do Time Of Use / Seasonal Rate / Tiered Billing in California--for my plan, I do OK... Pay $0.09 per kWhr for off peak, and for Summer Peak, I get paid $0.30 per kWhr--as long as I use very little power from noon-6pm Monday-Friday; However, these are credits--not a check at the end of the year).

If "a)" (Billing and Generation Meter are in Parallel to Utility Feed)--then utility billing is unfair and needs to be "fixed" (billing changes, or some other changes).

-Bill

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

I don't know what meters JCPC is using...

My current GE electronic (GE kV2cs configured as a TOU) meter reads forwards and backwards, and nets out for the two billing readings (1. is Total Usage; 2. is Peak usage; implied total - peak = off peak usage).

I would guess the (electronic) meters are programmable/configurable based on the needs of each utility.

In fact, my meter started with 50,000 kWhrs--and both now are under ~45,000 kWhrs (net negative readings after 3.5 years of GT usage).

So--for a series Billing / load + Gen meter configuration, only the billing meter would need to be bi-directional (for true "Net Usage").

TnAndy--have you ever seen your "billing meter" turn backwards (low household usage and bright sunny day where GT Solar power exceeds home usage)?

-Bill

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Guppy,

Here is the November Bill....the month before we went on the GP program.
You will note the billing amount is 946 hrs......dividing 946 hours into the energy charge gives the retail rate.......0.09316 cents per KwHr.



I can post the previous 5 years or so if you'd like, but the only difference will be a slight change in retail rate as JCPB passes on whatever fuel surcharge TVA adds to the wholesale rate, or takes it away, once per quarter.




I'm leaving out the December bill, because part of the month was "pre" program, and part of it "post" program....they did install a new billing meter along with the generation meter....and the bill is more confusing than 'normal'.......


Also posted, is the January bill minus the yellow stickies, since my figures on them seem to cause you confusion.



and here is the February bill:




You may note that when dividing the Kwhr usage amount ( the Billing meter ) into the energy charge, all of a sudden, the retail rate jumps up in the 11-12 cent range for January, February......but if you figure the hours on the Gen meter, add them TO the billing, THEN divide, you're right back to the .09316 retail rate.....which means they ARE ADDING the generation meter amount to the billing meter amount.....JUST LIKE I SAID......and billing me for both.

Then giving me 15 credit for the generation amount. 15 - 9.3 = 5.7 in my pocket

What else do you require as proof ?

BB.

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

If you produced more than you used--then you would get $0.15 per kWhr in your pocket.

As long a you are satisfied that your Billing Meter is facing the utility (and records backwards when you have a lot of solar power, and little home use--and you need to double check--not all meters do "turn backwards") and the Generation Meter is basically a branch circuit off of the Billing Meter (Premise Side)--then all is fair--and actually not a bad deal.

-Bill

Solar Guppy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

I now understand where the misunderstand is ...

The poster/home owner has two meters, one that is the solar system output which then connects to the main panel, then a second meter which is a bi-directional meter for the entire home


The Solar is always paid 15 cents for what its meter registers ... the electric company always adds this kWh to the main meter because either

1) The energy goes into the grid, decrementing the main meter and this is to offset get paid twice for the same energy as decrementing will add yet another 9.xx cents credit per kWr that goes out to the grid ( 15 on the solar , 9.xx on the main )

2) The energy is consumed by the home, preventing the main meter from incrementing, to prevent providing a double credit ( 15 on solar , 9.xx should have been registered as consumed by the home )

So, the home owner is getting full, 15 cent credit, the mistake or maybe better said misunderstanding is assuming the main meters reported value is the actual kWh the home used, it is not and that's why there is the adjustment/offset. Took me awhile to understand this, but it makes perfect sense. He is getting the correct amounts

t00ls

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

I have to explain the TVA plan....first there is 2 meters,generation and billing.....

on the billing meter you have total distributed,total generated,and total net

on the generation meter you have the same ,but the only numbers you care are for total distributed(you wire it as if you were the distributor)

I get billed for all of the total net on the billing meter and the total distributed on the generation meter.....then I am paid .15 cents for total distributed on the generation meter

I realize only part of the .15 cents (something like .027 cents)

heres my rates: .0885 for the first 300 kW.... .08550 for 301-1000 kW... over a 1000 kW is .08250

say I used 100 kW and I generated 50,I get billed for 150 kW
150x.08850=$13.275
I then get paid .15 for 50
50x.15=$7.50

13.275-7.50=$5.775 what my bill would be before the monthly 13.27 minimum charge
so my final bill would be $19.05

under the new program which just started...you would get .12 cents per kW and what ever the current utility company rate is ,EG; .12+.08850=.2085 per kW distributed on the generation meter

so take the same figures...100 tn on billing and 50 td on the generation meter

150x.08850=$13.275

50x.2085=$10.425................13.275-10.425=$2.85+$13.27 min.mo. charge=$16.12

difference of 3 dollars and some change

the reason I know this is because I blew up when I got my first bill and found out they had billed me for what I produced....sounds kinda funny right...It was after I called and made a fuss that they changed their website and the way the program worked

the other thing is...they are getting the green energy credits that I produce...the contract states that I am not entitled to them...

still all in all...it's better than a net metering deal where I dont get any thing from what I produce

TNANDY if you say your billing meter doesnt net meter then you need to contact TVA because you are in fact supposed to have a net meter
on the billing side...the generation side need only to go one way

it does state in the contract that you are billed at the current utility rate for both(I missed it to)...and believe it or not...I've done the math as if I only net metered
I am getting a good deal with tva than if I were in another state

so I dont see what you are mad about

by the by....I'm the first residential in my TVA service area to grid tie

so I am the guinea pig for my utility company...trust me hook your equipment back up....rates will be going sky high soon

and a side note......if you used 100kW on the billing and put out 50 on the generation.....you used 150 in your home...that is why they bill it that way

it does TVA and your utility company no good if the electricity stays in your home
on the other hand ...if you used 50 and generated 100...you would see a big difference in the billing

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

t00ls wrote: »

so I dont see what you are mad about

I was mad for the exact same reason you were.....as you stated.......because I was lead to believe one thing and came to find out another.


I agree....the "new deal" will be better.....at least it's an honest 12 cents....not the 15 takeaway whatever your local rate is ( which varies all over the TVA service region )

t00ls

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

have you got the new contract yet....I've already submitted mine

and just to make sure you know....they will still bill you for the amount produced.....the difference is now you will get the local rate added to the .12 cent

---

cut and paste from the tva website;The participating power company will provide monthly statements showing the energy used and any credit due. Power bills will be reconciled either monthly or annually, at the discretion of the participating power company. Energy consumed at the home or business, whether it is generated at the site or delivered over the local power distribution system, is billed at the standard rate.

---

they explained this to me after I got mad...I was on the phone for 2 days to get it straight.....but then a light bulb came on when hugh meyer said this "the power you produce is still going into your home unless you aren't using any,in that case you would see a full .15 cents"

when he said that....I understood that it was as if I was using grid power and unless it all went back out..it wouldn't do the utility company any good.......If it was me running the power company.......I would be the same way

so I was mad at first...but then I figured how california and florida do net metering and realized it's a better deal (unless the rates go up) enter the new program

I hope maybe I have helped in some way,because I know how frustrating it was for you just like me

TnAndy

Re: Confusing Solar GT Program or Confusing Article?

Oh yeah, I "got it" as soon as I sat down with my power bills, a calculator, and re-read the contract. It just made me mad they way they tout the 15 cents without telling you the other half ( though it IS in the contract ).

Heck, I've even explained it to some TVA people and was told "OH, NO...that's NOT the way it is "......ahahahahaaa.....THEY don't know either......ahahahahaaaaaaa

I haven't seen the new contract yet......supposed to sign it and go into effect 1 July the way I heard it....so I figured I'd give our local power board another week or two to see if they get off their duff and send it.

And for the record, I agree even the current deal beats net metering...and the "new deal" will be better than that. I didn't disconnect, though I was tempted just to be ornery. This month's bill came today.....we got billed for 485Kwhrs and got a generation credit of 45 bucks.