New Mitsubishi Electric

Cariboocoot

http://www.vancouversun.com/Business/Electric+purrs+into+town/1472226/story.html

Nice idea, but once again the usual caveats about electric cars - including the coal-fired electric plant producing more pollution than the electric car it charges (if such be the case).

But at least they're trying, eh?

Brock

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

I so want an all electric car that looks like a car. I like being stealth Honestly the only thing that comes close is the RAV 4 EV, but they only made 1100 of them and they are selling for sticker price or more with 50,000-100,000 miles on them. The next best thing looks like it will be the Tesla model S
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php
but at $49,900 I don't think that will happen any time soon either.

Some day...

niel

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

we won't get away from paying somebody for something at this point in the game. yes, the power plants pollute, but so does a gasoline engine. at least the electrics could be charged by solar or wind power instead of making some foreign country rich because they have the oil. kind of a lesser of 2 evils i suppose and yes, there are trade-offs going all electric such as shorter distances traveled and battery replacement costs not to mention the base costs of the electrics being high. we are the losers in all of this.

Brock

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

Keep in mind the single largest consumer of energy in the US is the petroleum industry itself. It consumes about the same amount of energy to make a gallon of gas as using that same energy to move an electric car 25 miles. So which pollutes more?

Even the worst polluting oil-fired plants produce less co2, NOx and other bad thing than even the best gasoline car per mile. This is because they can put 20-ton scrubbers on even the worst of plant and you can't do this on a car due to size, weight and cost issues.

But most importantly as Niel pointed out I could charge my electric car via solar. Even running our TDI on bio diesel, I can't make that myself, but I can generate my old electricity via solar...

icarus

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

A bit off topic,, but the a un-heralded positive of pure electric and plug in hybrids is,, in addition to being able to buy energy from the grid or Pv/Re sources,,, but they can also sell energy back to the grid. So what you say,,, why would you want to do that?

Here is the reason. If there were a significant and predictable number of plug ins on the grid 23/7 ( Remember,, cars only drive a small percentage of the day) they can serve a a huge, disaggregated battery bank for the grid. This has two advantages. The first is it can become the battery bank that allows solar and wind to be used 24/7 and in times of little wind or sun. The second,, and perhaps most important is this gigantic battery bank for the grid, and can therefore could serve to reduce (significantly) peak demand on the grid,, reducing the idling spinning capacity of the grid. That idle capacity is the most wasteful, least efficient, most polluting energy of all because it is not doing anything except waiting for the next light to be turned on.

In normal economic times the US buys ~15 million cars and light trucks. If 25% of these were plug ins (~3.5 million) , after ten years you would have 35 million large capacity batteries on the grid.

The technology exists such that the cars could be programmed to buy from the grid when the price was low,, sell to the grid when the peak price is high,, and be programmed to leave enough energy in the battery to get it to work (or home) all at the same time.

Tony

niel

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

actually, i have heard another possible reason why we aren't seeing electrics and that's because the federal and state governments get a lot of tax revenue from gasoline and some other oil products that go (supposedly from what i hear) to maintaining our roads and bridges. this is a possibility among other special self serving interests out there that don't give a crap what is good for us, let alone what we may want.
i suspect when electrics are popular with many on the road, guess what will happen to the electric bills? the sky is the limit with many households and businesses then being taxed severely for the roads whether you use them, and by how much, or not so it can go beyond the obvious reasons some may have heard.
this is going too far off topic for me to carry this further and it risks political conversions so i say no more.

Cariboocoot

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

Tony; I like your idea, but so far the designs don't seem to include this feature!

Niel; you are right as rain. Here in BC gasoline price is nearly 50% taxation. Meanwhile, we have the cheapest electric rates imaginable. If the energy load shifts from tax-generating petroleum to government owned hydro the electric bills inevitably will rise.

I looked up the specs on this car from Mitsu. They claim 14 hrs charging @ 120V (15A) or 7 hrs @ 240V (same amperage). Also, there is a proposed "quick charge" system using 3-phase which should accomplish 80% charge in 30 minutes. Over-all range of 100 miles means its still not suitable for long-distance driving (who is going to wait 30 minutes to "refuel"?) but it does seem like a much more practical design for urban use than most gas guzzlers. However, being on par with the Mercedes Smartcar - it costs more. Given the preliminary numbers, about $10,000 more. Some further economic incentive (there are a few now) will be necessary to get sales going.

Once people start buying, the purchase price should come down - possibly. Volume sales discount can be countered by demand price buoyancy.

They should offer an "at home" solar charge kit, but I haven't seen any plans for such. No specs on the batteries either, that I could find. Bet we can work up a design amongst ourselves, though!

As for buying one - you first! But I'd trust the design claims from Mitsubishi before I'd trust any 'start-up' companies or even Zenn.

icarus

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

CC,

You are right that current cars lack the aforementioned technology, but in fact there is no real mainstream electric or plug in hybrid car on the market yet,,, Tesla not withstanding.

Having said that,, there is no technical reason that technology couldn't be incorporated in a heartbeat!

PS I don't think the reason we don't see electric cars has little to do with govt/corporate conspiracy. I think that Petro is a very mature, entrenched infrastructure that can't change quickly, and won't change until it becomes cheaper than the current status quo. As long a petro "keeps pace" price wise with expectation people will continue to use it. I remember when gas was $.25 an imperial gallon (5/4 US gal) If you had told me then that it would be $4 I would have said,,, no I won't pay that. But like the frog in the hot water pot, we continue to get boiled.

I have always said,, we need forward looking markets tied to forward thinking political and social policy.

T

niel

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

i never said it was a conspiracy, but as you say it is an embedded part of a working system that many are reluctant to change and the taxation is a part of that. they aren't so willing to cut off revenues very quickly and to them this is not a high priority, period. the same is said of the consumer, although grimacing on the costs of things now, that adding higher costs for something that won't go as far just isn't very appealing either so they change not. if for the same cost range we'd see an electric that had about the same dimensions and styles as current gas types even with the detriment of being limited to 100 miles or so, i think they would sell somewhat, the economy is in a bad downturn so the timing is bad for going out on a limb as the public may see it. too many are being cautious or are unemployed to take a plunge into it. major manufacturers not making them is also thwarting this to a point because some will, as you reminded us, only buy from certain popular namebrand manufacturers.

Cariboocoot

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

I think one of the reasons they are introducing it in BC is so they can say "less than $2 to fill up!"

The battery specs: 330 volt, 16kW/hr.
So I'm guessing direct solar charging could pose some design difficulties. Who wants a live 330 volt DC plug? Switching would be murder!
But isn't that less than 50 A/hrs on a battery that high in voltage? A system that could supply an average of 3-4 kW/hrs could recharge it in a reasonable amount of time, no? Except you'd want to re-charge at night when you're not driving.

Sorry to go on like this, but when I have no practical application at hand I start day-dreaming in the theoretical.

niel

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

haha message too short so i have to tell you something here like i answered you in bold.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

I think one of the reasons they are introducing it in BC is so they can say "less than $2 to fill up!"

The battery specs: 330 volt, 16kW/hr.
So I'm guessing direct solar charging could pose some design difficulties. Who wants a live 330 volt DC plug?

i don't know as i guess i wouldn't mind the plug and i don't suppose it to be more difficult than putting gas into a car, but it would be more time consuming as it takes time to charge batteries up.

Switching would be murder!

how about one of those big knife switches they used on the electric chairs? now that is murder.:p

But isn't that less than 50 A/hrs on a battery that high in voltage?

you're right as it is about 48.5ah. that leaves 25.25ah usable if not going beyond 50% dod.

A system that could supply an average of 3-4 kW/hrs could recharge it in a reasonable amount of time, no?

that depends on the battery they are using i would think as only some deep cycles can take big charges unless their plans are to utilize the standard starting batteries and i don't see those lasting very long if deeply discharged.

Except you'd want to re-charge at night when you're not driving.

you could drive at night, but the lights will draw even more power for every hour of operation.

Sorry to go on like this, but when I have no practical application at hand I start day-dreaming in the theoretical.

zzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZ zzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZ

Cariboocoot

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

The batteries are lithium-ion!
The motor is listed as 47kW.
There is a small diagram showing an "inverter".
How it all comes together ... they don't say.

Maybe someday, eh?

niel

Re: New Mitsubishi Electric

yes, it's a big secret how this stuff works isn't it?:p ok on the lithium ion batteries as i didn't read into it that far and can't seem to get out of thinking of how the rest of us folks do things with solar.:roll: one thing for sure is if battery prices keep rising the lithium ion type may be a good option for us to turn to. maybe even now?