XW Pro AGS warm up cycle

Mtnsun

Hello
I have a Schneider conext AGS hooked to dual XW pros through Insight facility.
This is connected to a diesel generator with a factory 2 wire auto start, in the ags Manual the configuration for 2 wire auto start is called type 14.
On insight local, In the AGS Generator configuration Menu, there are setpoints for Generator warmup time.
I set generator warmup time to 300 seconds but the generator immediately qualifies and starts charging, it does not wait 300 seconds.
The generator cool down cycle does actually work, it disconnects the load and waits the time programed before turning off the generator.
When I called Schneider tech support they told me generator warmup does not work with a 2 wire auto start.
I looked through the AGS manual and did not see any reference to how the Generator warm up function works. 
Can anyone explain how the AGS warmup function is designed to work?
And what style of generator it works with?

ELYNN4

Schneider has significant bugs in their firmware that they are not acknowledging.  You might check to make sure the Type 14 generator selection actually took.  You have to put the AGS in standby in order to select the generator type.

Mtnsun

I will try that
What AGS type of generator do you have? 
And does the warmup function work?

ELYNN4

I have a Type 9 generator .  The warm up cycle works fine - while the glow plug preheat function works, the preheat/shutdown bypass function does not work as programmed…frustrating!

Mtnsun

@ELYNN4 sorry to hear you are having struggles with your AGS also,
hopefully they can acknowledge your situation and get it fixed.
I tried putting the AGS in standby and selecting type 14 again, and waited for it to turn green. The warm up function still does not work.
I have the AC2 reconnect time delay set to 300 seconds as a work around, so my generator can get fully warmed up before getting any load. But I am still curious why it will not work through the AGS.

ELYNN4

You might try the type 8 generator setting.  Looks like they monitor whether the generator is running - so maybe they use the warm up function?

Mtnsun

I will give type 8 a try
The tech said it doesn't work with my generator type, but the AGS sends a signal to start the generator,  the inverter controls when power is applied to AC2. 
It seems like it is a XW programming situation not a lack of features on a 2 wire auto start.

Dave Angelini

Recommend that you tell Schneider your requirements. AGS is an old design that works fine for most since 2008 when I first used it. There has been no firmware since 2017 and it is a hard system to manage as there are so many different generators with alot of new features.  The release note file is attached below the screen shot also.

https://solar.se.com/us/en/support/#technical-support


I tell my clients to use it at their own risk. Also if they are just using it to start and stop a genset, they should be around to keep an eye on it, Several insurance claims that I was paid to look at were from fuel line leaks from vibration and exhaust. Commercial customers most always have to have someone at the site for property insurance.

You do not want to see my pix of burned offgrid homes!

Mtnsun

Dave
Thanks for the advice, generators are a big responsibility, maintainence schedules  need to followed for every generator, they do need to be inspected regularly, even if it's not remote start. I agree Remote starting a generator adds a large risk.
I grew up in a off grid house, I have seen many different types of generators in my time, and fixed more broken generators then I want to talk about, these days I try to only run low hour Industrial grade generators, or a good Honda inverter generator.
There are lots of new generators out there but it still seems like a 2 wire auto start is widely used in the generator industry, the generator computer controls the generator operation, alarms, and shutdowns, it just needs a run signal from the inverter.
I talked to schneider tech support again today to ask them how the Generator warmup function actually works, and what to expect. After looking at the AGS manual he agreed it was not not clear how it works.
The AGS manual shows how to control the AGS through the SCP but not through Insight, and doesn't describe the warm up function.
He got my insight information so he could look at the backend of my insight local to see all the menu options I was talking about.
He is going to get back to me, but he did send this over via email to describe generator warm up


Warm up time tips:    

"Automatic Generator Start" in the context of power management systems. The "warm-up time" in this context refers to the period during which the generator runs after it's started by the AGS but before it's considered ready to take on the full electrical load.

During the warm-up time, the generator is allowed to stabilize its output, reach its optimal operating temperature, and ensure that it's ready to provide stable and reliable power to the connected systems. The duration of the warm-up time can vary depending on the specific generator and the manufacturer's recommendations.

This feature is important for ensuring that the generator is fully prepared to handle the electrical load effectively, especially in critical applications where a sudden power demand could be detrimental if the generator isn't ready.

Dave Angelini

My input is to feed this back on the link I placed above. That way it probably will get back to marketing or engineering.  You are in Support Hell and it is an entry level position for 90%. There are a few in Support that are good. Send the Case number also!  

Graham Parkinson

A tip for those using gasoline fueled generators with large fuel tanks (based on a scary experience with a Honda 2200i, but valid for any other carb based generator).   The following is especially valid for unattended AGS generator setups.

Most carburetors have a float, needle valve and fuel bowl overflow line.   If there is the tiniest bit of crud or a flake of corrosion that makes it's way into the needle valve seat and jams the valve open, the carb bowl will overflow, drenching your hot engine in gasoline.   If your generator is connected to a large fuel tank - that entire tank can potentially drain onto your hot generator engine and ignite.

How do I know this?  Well, one night I went out to shut our generator down and found it running away happily, sitting in a pool of gasoline ...Yikes!!!... Luckily it didn't ignite and take the whole generator shed up in flames.

I think it didn't ignite because the Hondas have a piece of tubing that extends the bowl overflow down out the bottom of the generator, away from the hottest parts of the engine.

These safety measures minimize the hazards of fuel overflow:

1. Install a fine mesh filter on any external gas line.  Clean out your carb bowl on a regular basis.
2. Don't place an external tank higher than the regular tank (i.e. minimize pressure on the needle valve).
3. Extend the carb drain hose to lead well away from the generator and into a container or safe location (gravel pit etc.) so that any overflow is far enough away so as to not ignite.  Consider placing your generator on a surface of fine gravel over a liner etc. (that will contain and drain away fuel and prevent evaporation of vapour from spilled fuel around the generator).
4. Install your generator well away from your house (!!) or any building you care about and place generator in/on fireproof materials (my cousin sadly lost his entire collection of tools and their sizable shop/storage shed when the Kubota diesel genset went up in flames).

 

Mtnsun

Dave 
All I see is a technical support phone number on that link. That is the original number I called to get help with the AGS
I will dig around on there more to see if I missed another option.
Thanks for the help.

Dave Angelini

No, it looks like they changed the link...   try this!
https://solar.se.com/us/en/contact-sales/

Mtnsun

Graham 
That sounds like a scary situation, I have heard that small generators do not like pressure from larger fuel tanks.

Mtnsun

Thanks for the updated link,
I will try that.

Graham Parkinson

The Honda 2200i (unlike the H3000i) has an internal fuel pump which can pull fuel from and external tank if you put a suction line in the fuel cap. 

So my external tank, which is carefully placed at same elevation as the carb bowl didn't provide any extra pressure.  It was just the fuel pump pulling fuel out of the tank un-hindered by the needle valve which was propped open by a spec of dirt.

Mtnsun

Here is the response from Schneider tech support.

"We have tried to check and this is how the system operates, there is no different mode of operation than this. it qualifies automatically the generator as cold."

So the warm-up function does not work on My XW Pro.
Maybe it works on other models of Schneider inverters, Or possibly older firmware?
I sent a message to the link Dave provided, Maybe it will open up a internal conversation.

Dave Angelini

The hidden secret of new firmware is that it often is not tested for all of the different apps or parts of apps.  It is the reason (and I get heat from Schneider on this) that I tell my offgrid clients not to update firmware unless they have a reason. If I see a security warning (have not yet with Insight local/cloud)  I will pass it on.

Dave Angelini

A question, are you talking about the AGS or XWP timings. I know I use to do my screenshot 10 years back with XW+ and it would delay for the time set. I have no idea what FW this was on my clients system in the day. Might try it?

Mtnsun

I am talking about AGS settings located in AGS Generator configuration 
After realizing the AGS warm up would not work, I did set the AC2 time delay reconnect on XWP to 300 Seconds.
It functions as I would like that way, the only issue would be if the XWP disqualifies the generator it will take 5 minutes to reconnect. 
One nice thing of the insight Local is being able to look back at the graphs of generator charging to make sure the generator stays qualified during the whole charging cycle.

Dave Angelini

If you are disqualifying a generator, you have alot more problems down the line like XWP transfer relay life!

Insight local or cloud were both grand slams!

ELYNN4

Dave, any way to get access to older versions of the Gateway firmware?  Unfortunately I upgraded my Gateway firmware, thinking that it had been fully vetted, and have lost functionality on my AGS.  Tech support has been no help so far…

BB.

The eu2X00i (and others in the eu2200i+ family) have a small internal fuel pump that is powered by pressure variation in the crank case (I think that is the "pomp power source"?)...

The nice thing is that this allows you to connect an external fuel tank that is below the carburetor--You do not need to "pressurize" the external fuel system for the the eu2200i/eu2000i gensets. The fuel pump is capable of drawing a (small) vacuum.

Normally this is down with a fuel line connected to (what was) the vented fuel cap. Fill the onboard fuel tank, start the genset, and as the onboard fuel tank is drawn down, this draws fuel from an external tank.

https://www.amazon.com/honda-generator-fuel-extender/s?k=honda+generator+fuel+extender

The nice thing is this usually will not pump fuel through a cracked fuel line (let air into the external fuel link, break the vacuum, no fuel draw from external tank--Depending on fuel/tank levels, etc.).

Of course, if you have a "stuck" float in the carburetor, the fuel pump will let the onboard and outboard tanks be drained of fuel and make the (unsafe) mess that Graham warns about.

Generators & Fuel should not be installed inside or too close to a home for lots of reasons (Carbon Monoxide, fuel fire, noise, etc.)... Unattended generators are another set of unintentional safety & operationa issues.

-Bill

Dave Angelini

ELYNN4 said:

Dave, any way to get access to older versions of the Gateway firmware?  Unfortunately I upgraded my Gateway firmware, thinking that it had been fully vetted, and have lost functionality on my AGS.  Tech support has been no help so far…

Unless you can beg support, no, save all old copies, or look into why they were restricting you to use new 1.18 FW on XW+.

Schneider is a company and has shareholders who expect a return on investment. How much support do you expect on old equipment? They use to only support folks like me and they changed about 4 years back. They mostly always answer the phone now. Guess what changed?

 For me, I just go in thru my Engineering contacts. It is a value I add to clients. I have done field test on most every device since 2008. Before then, I owned it on my 10 year sailing trip and offgrid.

Not trying to bum you out but if this is a big deal, you may have to buy a different make AGS to do what you want. They are out there. I have a commercial client up your way with 4 gensets and he can do just about anything. 

Buy a new one, good for the economy and imagine what winter life would be like if yours fails. Spares are such a great way to sleep soundly😉