Did I do this correctly? Magnum system to panel

kikijames

I had my magnum Outback system set up by a solar technician. The only thing I set up was the wiring coming in from my 3000W gas generator (wires A,B+G) and the wires going out to my 100amp panel (wires #1+2). The manual does not show my inventory setup. Please see photo, thx Ron

BB.

Welcome to the forum Ron,

Some questions first... You are in Canada?

This is a 120 VAC system (not 120/240 VAC split phase).

What exact brand/model of AC inverter (need the manual).

Genset info:

• What brand/model of AC genset (this is a 3,000 Watt 120 VAC unit)?
• What AWG for 3,000 Watt @ 120 VAC wiring gauge? Should be at least 10 AWG (looks smaller AWG?)

The wiring panel... You have Two? AC hots in, or is this:

• 120 VAC from genset (L1, N, G)
• 120 VAC to AC inverter input (L1, N, G)
• What/why 2x parallel AC in and AC out wires (to/from inverter)?

Your sub panel

• N+G bond in sub panel? This assumes no N+G bond in genset (common for smaller Wattage gensets)
• No other source of AC power (no AC mains from utility, genset, etc.)?

Assuming that the AC inverter (Magnum?) is taking 120 VAC from Genset (when running), and outputting to 120 VAC output (genset or battery) when needed... Inverter may actually be an inverter/charger (can charge battery bank when genset is running)?

Be careful with DC wiring... Color codes are different vs AC wiring.. For example, connected to your DC negative bus(?) you have both black and white wires... Use colored electrical tape on wire ends so that don't mix up AC L1/N/G with DC +/- leads (or switch +/- polarity somewhere).

Has this system been running OK for you--Or you you looking for a sanity check before powering the system up?

-Bill

kikijames

Thank you Bill. I'll get back to you with all the answers and it's the latter...sanity check... never turned it on. Talk soon, Ron

kikijames

Yes, we are from Canada.

Yes, I believe it is VAC 110 system

We have the Magnum MS Series pure sine wave inverter/charger Model #MS4024PAE

Genset is a Briggs and Straton P3000 120
VAC

I used  wire from one of my power tools to plug into gas generator. So i will switch that out for 10AWG

I only have 1 panel in my house and I am not tied to the grid at all. 
#1 goes to neutral, which goes to my house panel. 
#2 is connected to the ac hot which goes to the house panel. 
A is neutral from the gas generator
B is hot in from the gas generator
G is the ground wire from the gas generator
These are the ONLY wires I have done myself. 

The 2x parallel AC in  and AC out come from the inverter.

Yes N+G bond in sub panel not in genset.

Yes AC inverter (Magnum) is taking 120 VAC from Genset (when running), and outputting to 120 VAC output (genset or battery) when needed... Inverter may actually be an inverter/charger (can charge battery bank when genset is running)?

Yes this is what and how we want it to function. 

On the bus bar the work here was done by the installer. Currently with this system we are not hooking up any DC. The installer wrote on the white wire (on the white tape)  "negative". I'll cover that with black tape. 

Thank you kindly for your time Bill, 
Ron

kikijames

Ps... I'm trying to send you a full picture of our set up but it won't let me. Only 1 photo allowed/ post? 

kikijames

here it is

BB.

You should be able to post multiple images per post... Your .jpg file appears to be corrupt/improper extension (did not display for me).

The way I usually post images:

How are you intending to use the "system"?

Normally an AC inverter is attached to a DC Battery bank to power the inverter, possibly inverter recharges battery bank, and have your Outback MPPT solar charge controller recharging the battery bank from your solar array....

And before I go too far into the details... The MS4024PAE is a 120/240 VAC 60 Hz split phase inverter with 16.7 Amps per leg max output (around 2,000 Watts max output for 120 VAC only output). See spec sheet/manual links below.

There is a lot of information in the manual--And you should read the whole thing. Running this Magnum inverter from 120 VAC does require some "extra knowledge":

2.3.5 Wiring the AC Input and Output

The MS-PAE provides 120/240 VAC on the output, but the input may be wired either as a 120/240 VAC input or a 120 VAC input (to one input only) depending on the AC source. The AC output continues to produce 120/240 VAC with either the 120/240 VAC or 120 VAC input configuration.

WARNING: DO NOT connect 120 VAC (same phase) to both AC HOT 1 IN and AC HOT 2 IN inputs. These inputs must be 180° out-of-phase (i.e., 120/240 VAC). If you only have a 120 VAC source, you may connect to either the AC HOT 1 IN or AC HOT 2 IN, but NOT to both or damage may occur.

WARNING: Before making any AC connections, make sure the inverter is disconnected from the battery bank and that no AC power is connected to the inverter.

Info: If providing only 120 volts to the inverter input, the charger must be turned down to 50% to prevent overheating from occurring.

I don't know if this inverter can run without a 24 VDC bank--But I would do some more research to see if you can "use" it without a battery bank (i.e., just run the generator for 120 VAC power).

The inverter can "pass" up to 30 Amps of 120/240 VAC (30 amps ac per leg) through the internal transfer switch (would need heavier AC cabling if you wired for 30 amps generator power max--later upgrade).

Regarding AC Neutral-Ground bonding from the manual:
https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/Magnum-MS-PAE-datasheet.pdf (spec. sheet)
https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/Magnum-MS-PAE-Manual.pdf (owners manual)

The AC output neutral conductor and the DC negative conductors are not connected (bonded) to the inverter chassis. Both the input and output conductors are isolated from the enclosure and each other. System grounding, if required, is the responsibility of the system installer and must comply with local and national electrical codes and standards. Refer to the Section 2.4 “Grounding Inverters” for more information.

You probably need the option remote control to update the settings for your needs.

3.6 Factory Default Values Your MS-PAE Series inverter/charger uses default values for the adjustable settings (shown in Table 3-2) that may be adequate for your installation. If some of your operating parameters need to be changed from the default values, the optional remote control can be used to make those changes. To help you determine if you need a remote display, information on those inverter/charger settings that can be changed is provided below. The settings once programmed are saved in the remote’s non-volatile memory and are preserved until changed—even if DC power to the inverter is lost (as long as the remote is connected). For information on the full range of settings for each function, refer your remote owner’s manual at www.SensataPower.com

I could not find much about the B&S P3000 generator... At least in the USA, it seems to have been replaced by a newer model... But as a typical inverter-generator, it should do what you need/expect (assuming you have the Magnum inverter configured correctly).

Anyway... I am not sure you are getting what you expected... A 120/240 VAC 4kWatt inverter that will only run 120 VAC @ 2kWatt...

The big think with batteries... Once you have them delivered... You have to check them (voltage, check electrolyte levels/specific gravity per cell if flooded cell, log the data) and get them on charge... Standard flooded cell lead acid batteries need to be kept charged/cycled (or recharged every 30 days, at least). If they set for >30 days and/or below ~75% State of Charge, they start to sulfate (degrade) fairly quickly.

Picking the "right batteries" (voltage, AmpHour rating, chemistry, etc.) for your needs. And configuring the solar charger and AC inverter-charger to keep the battery bank "happy" is very important for long battery life.

Be very careful here--You may have a pretty sophisticated system here, and need to understand/study/get optional controllers to correctly configure your setup.

-Bill

kikijames

Hi Bill,
Lots to digest in your reply. Thank you. I have linked some photos for you. The label is from our solar panels.  We have 6 in 2 series of 3. The batteries are 4 x 6V in series = 24V.
We have the mppt charge controller as seen in the photo. 
The system is coming into our tinyhouse to our panel. As mentioned the other wires are going to our generator to charge up the batteries when we haven't had sun. 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DqyhwKaR7RHV6TQT6
Ron

BB.

Ron,

Your photos link worked fine... Looks like you do have something like 4x 6 volt @ 415 AH AGM Rolls batteries in series for your bank.

And 6x 310 Watt for 1,860 Watt solar array...

https://www.rollsbattery.com/battery/s6-460agm-re/
https://rollsbattery.com/resource/rolls-battery-user-manual/

You do have a "full" off grid solar power system installed and wired up to go...

First important step is to ensure that your batteries are fully charged and kept charged (do not let batteries slowly discharge and sit "uncycled". Lead Acid and AGM (a form of lead acid) batteries will give you a good service life (should be 5-7 years +/- for these--At a first guess). But if they are "stored" at less than 75% SoC and/or heavely discharged (down below 20%)--They will not last long.

With improper management of your battery bank state of charge/charging voltages/etc., batteries can be destroyed in months, weeks, or even days.

A relatively common method of "murdering" the battery bank for folks in the "north" is to leave the AC inverter (and/or other small loads such as security system and such) and then have the solar panels covered by snow until spring... The battery bank is taken dead in hours/a few days--Which ruins the battery bank.

Keeping an eye on the battery bank voltage and preparing for winter (fully charge bank, then, typically turn off the battery bank before leaving) is important.

Getting the system up so that your solar array and charge controller are properly programmed, functioning, and charging... And the AC inverter-charger is properly programmed (both need to be configured for your AGM batteries) is key here.

The basic system appears to be "there" mechanically/electrically.

Has your installer, or you, programmed the Outback solar charger and the Magnum inverter-charger yet? AGM batteries require different charging voltage (slightly lower) than the typical "default" lead acid batteries.

The first issue that I see, and you have not replied to, is that this inverter is a 120/240 VAC Split Phase unit (basically the same 120/240 VAC split phase power that you find in almost every North American home). The major downside is that you can use only about 1/2 the Wattage (as inverter) and charging (24 VDC amperage output) as the name plate rating--As you are only using 120 VAC output from the inverter (assuming you are using L1 and Neutral for 120 VAC, and not L1/L2 which gives you 240 VAC, or L1/N/L2 which gives you 120/240 VAC split phase power).

There is nothing "wrong" with using this inverter as a 120 VAC only inverter--Just only getting 2,000 Watts of inverter based 120 VAC power vs the 4,000 Watt 120/240 VAC nameplate rating.

If you want, I can go through the "math" for your system... Expected solar performance over the year (just need a rough location of system to get solar data).

-Bill

kikijames

Goodmorning Bill. We sure are blessed that you responded to our inquiry from the start. I hope you know we are newbies to all this. Thank you for all this information. Is it possible for us to use this system to utilize the whole 4000 watts? What do we need to hook up to make this possible? 

So... concerns about our batteries. We had all this purchased and set up 2 years ago in preparation for our move up to Northern Ontario. We have moved, cleared our forest, set up our tinyhome and been running on minimal solar with our portable ecoflow. Now we have the insulated solar shed set up and ready to start our Magnum system. We read about battery storage in the manual you sent (thank you). A few things:

1. The solar shed is not heated and we run below freezing all winter for the most part. 

2. The batteries have been in "storage/shelf" mode this whole time, never used

3. Our initial charge..do we a) charge to max with the gas generator or b)trickle charge with the sun which is unpredictable or c) with a battery charger? 
Thank you Ron

BB.

To use the full 4,000 Watts from your inverter, you need a 120/240 VAC breaker panel...

Basically, you have L1/L2/Neutral/Green wire safety ground. The left side is the input to a utility "pole transformer" (or your inverter's electronics). The right side is the split phase output for use in your home.


In the panel you have the option of connecting 1 pole breakers--The box usually "alternates" between L1 and L2 connections. To each 120 VAC load, you bring L1+N for 120 VAC on 1/2 load the inverter's output. And L2+N to the other 1/2 of your loads. This spreads the power between the loads evenly (not really evenly, but more randomly. I.e., 1/2 the 120 VAC loads are L1+N and the other 1/2 are L2+N.

And you have the option of installing 2 pole breakers if you had any 240 VAC loads (L1+L2 for 240 VAC loads... Some loads may require L1+L2+N -- But not usually, especially for small homes/cabins and "lower power" loads).

The 120/240 VAC panel is just like your normal home main panel... Here is a wiring diagram explaining the theory:

https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2021/02/how-to-wire-120v-240v-main-panel-breaker-box.html

This is the typical inside of a service panel (this is a sub panel, there are not input/master breakers). You can see two bus bars, L1 and L2 and how they alternate (support for single pole and 2 pole breakers). Not shown are the Ground and Neutral bus bars:

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/46960/need-help-determining-if-a-multiwire-branch-circuit-is-wired-correctly


In theory, your small home needs only 2 or 4 circuits (L1 for 1/2 the loads @ 15 amps and L2 @ 15 amps for the other half of the loads).

Or you could have 4-6 circuits... 2x for kitchen outlets (blender, coffee maker, counter outlets--So you can run the coffee maker and blender at the same time L1/N and L2/N)... And another breaker for ceiling lights, another circuit for rest of 120 vac outlets in home (computer, phone charger, floor/table lamps, etc.). Possibly another for your water pump (if you have one).

Note, the total current is only 16 amps per L1 or per L2... You may choose to have more than 2x circuits so you can turn off a circuit to work on it (replace lamp fixture or outlet)... And if you have a short that pops a breaker (say blender), it does not also kill all the lights in the home...

Anyway, to "converter" you need a 120/240 VAC split phase service panel (hopefully using the same brand/model of circuit breakers you present 120 only box uses). And wire that directly to the AC output of your inverter (L1+L2+N+Ground). And add breakers across L1 and L2, and wire out the branch circuits as needed.

Note that even though you may have 2 or more 15 amp breakers on a single LX inverter output... This inverter can only output  16 amps total per LX circuit. Having "lots of branch circuits" does not give you more current/power.

From what I can see, you do not need the bus bars in your solar ePanel... You can just wire directly to the Magnum AC inputs and outputs (if there are code or other issues, I am not there, not a code person--You will need to figure that out yourself).

Note that your present generator is a L1+N+G device... I.e., 120 VAC only. You will need to program the Magnum's battery charger for 1/2 current output to avoid overheating the charging block in the inverter (see the manual).

Also note that you may run into other issues (read the manual closely). Inputting 120 VAC only into the inverter may under certain conditions, only give you L1+N output (120 VAC) if you are running on generator power in "bypass" mode.

Regarding your battery bank... There is a very good chance that it is approaching "dead". AGM batteries typically need to be recharged once every 6 months (at least) to keep in good shape. After two years, they are probably near dead and sulfated--Check the battery bank resting voltage and see what it is.

Regarding Lead Acid batteries and AGM. These batteries are very good for sub freezing/very cold conditions. You do lose (temporary) capacity when cold, but when warmed again, they are back to normal.

fully charged Lead Acid/AGM batteries do not freeze until something like below -80F... However "dead" lead acid batteries freeze near 32F (water). You cannot recharge "frozen AGM" batteries if they are severely discharged. Roughly:

Flooded Cell Lead Acid batteries generally do not "survive" freezing (cracks the cases). AGM can survive (normally will not crack cases) but do need to be warmed backup and thawed.

I do not live in a cold climate (near coast around San Francisco)--So others here can give you more cold weather suggestions. But a battery heater(s), insulated battery box, etc. are good places to start if you are there through the winter... Generally heat the batteries (with genset if needed), then will usually stay above 32F with normal cycling in an insulated box (as I understand).

For charging, 10% rate of charge is probably "ideal"--That would be 40 amps @ 28 VDC or so. Your Magnum inverter-charger would be ideal (get it configured). Otherwise, you are left with buying a 24 volt AC charger, or one or two 12 volt chargers connected to your bank, etc...

You have to be very careful here... You have a sort of mix and match system here (120 VAC genset, 120/240 VAC inverter, 120 VAC home wiring, AGM batteries that have sat for 2+ years uncharged).

Unless you are pretty comfortable with DC wiring (boat, car, etc.) and AC wiring (home) and the major components of your system (genset, inverter-charger, solar charger, ePanel, home service panel, etc.)... This is getting more than I (and the others here) can "safely" give you advice on a forum. Jumping in the middle can cause you and/or us to miss things. With electrical, the details matter.

We do not know the "state/details" of your home off grid solar power system. And at this point you are a "newbie" for solar--There is a lot to learn the first time through. After you have done a couple systems--You can breeze through this stuff and help others too.

-Bill

kikijames

Thank you again. I will do some studying with all this information and links and get back to you if I get stuck. I understand about the amount of advice you can safely give to me. It is tons more than I've been able to get locally. Much appreciated Bill! 
Ron

BB.

Ron,

Do let us know how it all works out--And document your system/home so others can learn/understand what is possible.

-Bill

kikijames

Will do Bill. Can you check out these latest photos. I added the red wire on the left side of the bus bar to make 240 electric. The second picture shows them going to the 100 amp service panel.

BB.

Ron,

Be really careful here... I am not sure, but your first photo in Post #1 showed a white wire B1 from L1 of the genset into the left AC input "AC HOT IN" bus bar... (it would work for 120 VAC only). Note for AC in and AC out bus bars, I see two black wires to/from AC inverter (?)... I think. Are these "pairs of cables" in parallel? Or what--No labels, no photo of AC inverter AC input/output JBox.

However, connecting your "Red Wire" from Left bus bar AC In, along with Genset L1, and inverter's AC 1 In--This is not "good". May not smoke stuff, but will not give you 120/240 VAC split phase power either.

This is not/how to connect 120/240 VAC (L1/L2/N) power at all...

This is what I am talking about when I say I really am guessing at what you did--But I did not ask questions clarifying these connections, and you have add a Red wire to AC In bus bar which is really not approperate for 120 VAC power (believe it or not, sometimes what you did is done on purpose for small systems... I.e. 1/2 the AC panel runs from AC inverter (tiny home loads from battery+inverter), and the other 1/2  directly from AC genset (i.e., a well pump for an hour a day on genset).

You really should be drawing schematics to ensure you understand your connections and that the physical connections match up to your drawing... This does not have be be one giant schematic with AC/DC/control/sense wires... It can be several schematics for different sections... Such as one for AC power flow/components and a second one for DC power flow and DC sense leads/current shunt, etc.

It is pretty easy to get lost when you have a relatively complex wire nest and no clear picture in your mind what you are trying to do.

There is nothing "magic" about the bus bars... Other than how they are labeled and what you eventually plug into them.

In this case, I really do not see any advantage of using the Hot In, Neutral, and Hot Out bus bars in this ePanel...

If I understand your needs.. I would connect the generator's (clarify) L1/N/G directly to the AC inverter's AC Input L1/N/G... And I would connect AC Inverter Output L1/L2/N/G do your new 120/240 panel.

And, I would suggest a 30 Amp breaker for the main breaker in the new AC panel--Your actual supply current is around 25 amps on L1/N/G from the 3,000 Watt 120 VAC genst. The present 60 amp switch is just an "on/off" switch at this time. It is not protecting your 30 amp transfer switch, and your 120/240 VAC input wiring is probably not rated for 60 Amps (need to be 6 AWG or 4 AWG--depending on exact wire type you have):

https://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm

And you would be using a minimum of 10 AWG for 30 amp circuit. More or less, circuit breakers and fuses are there to protect the wiring itself from catching fire.

The internal Genset transfer switch is rated for 30 Amps on L1/L2/N/etc...

And the 4,000 Watt inverter is rated for ~16.7 amps on L1/L2/N/G itself, and up to 30 amps from genset (aka transfer relay max current).

See if I can find the wiring in the manual. From Paper Page #21, the AC wiring to/from the inverter (NOTE: You do not have the "AC Bypass Switch Assembly" in your system--Just AC wired directly to the AC Terminal Block):

The lower right "Main Panel" can simply be wired L1/N/G (call it Black, White, Ground) directly to AC HOT 1 In, and AC Neutral (either one is fine). You are not using AC HOT 2 In as you do not have L2 from a 120 VAC only genset.

From the AC Inverter, connect AC HOT 1 Out, AC Hot 2 Out, and Neutral (either) or L1/L2/N/G or Black/Red/White/Green (or bare copper) to your "main panel" as you already connected--Just "by pass" the whole ePanel AC in/Out/Neutral bus bars.

Keep the "black boxes" simple in your mind... There is just AC input and AC output. And DC battery bus connections for power. And a few other connections for sense leads, remote control/meters/etc. This is a pretty good drawing of the basic AC in (genset), AC output (to your tiny home panel) and the connection to Battery Bank:

Note that this wiring (even the "simple" AC wiring) can get pretty complex (and expensive) fast... Sometimes folks install (for example) Inverter bypass switches...For example if the inverter fails (and including you have to pull it from the panel and send in for repairs), there can be bypass switches so that, using switches, can take Genset AC output, around the AC inverter "hole/failed unit" directly to your AC tiny home AC service panel... 

Don't jump into the middle of your system with "new wiring connections"... For example, I would suggest simply removing all AC wiring from Genset to epanel, AC wiring to/from AC inverter & ePanel, and from ePanel to your service panel (split phase 120/240 panel).

At least from your close up photos (and my guesses), there is no reason (again my first guess) for any AC wiring to go into/out of your ePanel. Make your connections from AC genset directly to AC inverter AC In. And from AC out to your 120/240 VAC service panel.

Am I making any sense? Am I being helpful?

-Bill

kikijames

I will get back to you after I go over this. A lot of info to absorb. I'm just going to keep it simple and take out the red wire and stick with 120AC. I'll post back soon. 
Thx again
Ron

BB.

Ron, don't toss in the towel just yet...

The AC side of your system is actually pretty simple... You already have the 120/240 VAC service panel...

Breaking it down in pieces...

1. No AC wiring in ePanel (remove the genset/inverter wiring).
2. Connect from Genset Hot (L1/Black) directly to inverter AC Hot 1 IN (all genset wiring rated for 30 amps)
3. Connect from Genset Neutral (N/White) directly to inverter AC Neutral (either is fine)
4. Connect from Genset ground (green) to inverter AC ground

On the inverter to the service panel--It looks like you have the correct color wiring into the service box (L1=Black, L2=Red, Neutral-White, Green-ground). At this point, all wiring from inverter to panel should be rated for 30 Amps (60 amp breaker can be left in as "on/off" switch--Or changed to 30 amp switch).

1. Inverter AC 1 HOT OUT (L1/Black) to L1 terminal in service panel (where black is now)
2. Inverter AC 2 HOT OUT (L2/Red) to L2 terminal in service panel (where red is now)
3. Inverter AC Neutral (N/White) to Neutral/White in service panel
4. AC Ground (Green Wire) to service panel ground

You now have 120 VAC @ 3,000 Watts from the genset to the AC inverter AC input. L1/N/G (Black) or 120 VAC service... Note that when inverter is in bypass mode the Black connection in the service panel--I.e., only 1/2 of the breaker panel will be powered when running from genset (no L2/Red connection, so now L2 or 120 VAC power or 240 VAC L1/L2 power).

When inverter is "running"... You have L1/L2/N/G from Inverter to service panel and you have 4,400 Watts available at service panel (1/2 of wattage/current on Black, and 1/2 of wattage/current on Red wiring in service panel).

Note that the AC Inverter needs the battery charger section to be reprogrammed because it is only getting 120 VAC on L1/N and can only "manage" 1/2 of the rated battery charging output current.

There is still other stuff that may need fixing... The genset wiring in the ePanel is not large enough AWG--And would need to be changed anyway.

And I still do not "know" what the 2 pairs of cables to and from the AC inverter are (are these wires in parallel to carry more current instead of just one larger AWG cable)?

-Bill

kikijames

Thank you for going over that Bill. I am able to understand it better. Ok, I will wire it like you said and send updated photos once I do. Will be a few days. 
Thx Ron