Well pump powered by Quattro 8000.. couple wiring questions.

DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
Here's where I'm at..

I have a 205' deep well. It produces 20 GPM (according to well driller)
Static water level sits at about 55'
I purchased and already installed a Franklin Electric Tri-Seal 1.5 HP 15 GPM submersible pump. I also purchased the deluxe control box.
This is a 3 wire, 230v, 60 Hz pump.
I also purchased a 48v Quattro 8000 to power it with. The quattro is a 230v 50/60Hz inverter with enough amps to start that pump from a locked rotor starting amperage requirement.

My control box has L1, L2 and ground.. here's where I got a little confused.
I thought my inverter, which showed AC-Out 1 and AC-Out 2 with a common Neutral was going to read 115v on Line 1 and on Line 2.
I thought that I would just be running wire from L1 and L2 on the control box to the two line outs on the inverter. But that does not seem to be how this inverter works. I got the inverter wired up to the battery bank and flipped it on.
Line 1 to Neutral - 230v
Line 2 to Neutral - 0v

So I dig into the owners manual a bit more. I find that Line 2 Out is only powered through AC In power.
So that leaves me with one Line out at 230v..

I'll attach wiring diagrams for the control box.. But I'm concerned that this inverter is not what I need to be able to power this pump.
Can it be done with the Quattro or am I screwed and need to figure out another option to be able to supply this pump with power.

This is a off grid project. There is no grid available.

Control Box: https://www.rcworst.com/franklin-electric-2823008310-deluxe-submersible-motor-control-box-1-5-hp-230v-1ph-for-3-wire-motors-clone.html

Pump: https://www.rcworst.com/Franklin-Electric-SandHandler-Tri-Seal-15JS15P4-3W230-Submersible-Well-Pump-Motor-15-GPM-1-5-HP-230V-1PH-3-Wire-p5202.html

Inverter: https://www.solar-electric.com/victron-energy-quattro-inverter-48-8000-110-230vac.html

Comments

  • DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    Here's my jib I welded up for the skid steer to be able to drop 180' of pipe, a pump and all that wire and cable.
  • DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    A close up of the pump.
  • DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    The inverter's wiring connections.
  • DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    The control box.
  • DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    The control box wiring diagram.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,814 admin
    Dakker,

    Can you tell us what country you are in (USA, somewhere else)?

    And specifically what model of Quatro you purchased... There are Non-North America (230 VAC only) and North American Versions (120/240 VAC 60 Hz). For example a North American version (from our host, Northern Arizona Wind & Sun):

    https://www.solar-electric.com/victron-energy-quattro-inverter-48-8000-110-230vac.html

    Regarding the pump... It would be nice to have a "solar friendly" water pump (these tend to be more expensive).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    I am in Idaho Bill..
    I bought a European version Quattro 8000
    230v Single Phase
    As for the pump, it's already in the ground, 200 feet down and $2500 later.
    I'd prefer to run with the option I choose vs starting over with a more solar friendly pump.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,814 admin
    Can you program your Quatro for 60 Hz? The default for 230 VAC may be 50 Hz.

    The Franklin equipment (if bought in the USA/North America) is probably rated for 60 Hz... If you run on 50 Hz, the major components (motor, relay solenoids, capacitors may not be "correct value", etc.) may draw too much current (and the motor running at 83% RPM) will pump less than rated water...

    I followed your links to the Franklin pump and controller--Not much about frequency (Controller says 60 Hz for N. America).

    The Control Box schematic is a bit fuzzy for me to read clearly... But it looks like it runs off of 240 VAC L1 and L2... No Neutral connections that I could see (no need for 120 VAC from Lx to Neutral).

    I saw your note--Before we talk, you need to get more information on (possibly) reprogramming the Inverter for 60 Hz (very possible that this is supported) and more info from Franklin about 50/60 Hz issues (more than likely, 60 Hz is required).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    Yes, that inverter has adjustability to 60 Hz. I have the dongle to be able to do so.
    I bought that inverter specifically because it is a 230v single phase inverter which is what Franklin advertises their pump as.
    But so many people have been telling me that it's an american made motor and requires 230/240 split phase. I even read somewhere on Franklins website that they list it as 230, but it technically is a 240v motor but because of voltage drop to the pump it gets listed as a 230v motor. Maybe they even designed it as a 230v motor knowing that they wouldn't typically get a full 240v 200, 300, 500 feet down to the pump?
    Anyways, it is a 230v 60Hz motor. And there are electricians out there telling me I am wrong, but I am beginning to believe that I can run this thing on 230v EU power all the same as our 120/240 split phase. I'd just have 2 hots (or two phase lines) and a ground if wiring up on our grid vs using the 230v Single phase EU inverter.which gives me a neutral, a hot (or one phase line) and a ground. From what I have read, our 240v split phase is still 1 phase and is no different from the EU 230V design when not using the center tapped neutral. Am I right? Minus 10v of course..
     
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,814 admin
    In the USA, our power used to be 220 VAC nominal... And it has inched up over the decades to 240 VAC nominal. I would not worry about a 230 VAC vs 240 (or even 220) VAC rated motor on 230-240 VAC (just like our household went from 110 to 115 to 120 VAC).

    Since you got everything running (and rated) at 60 Hz... You should be fine.

    To use Split Phase 120/240 VAC powered appliances--There is an assumption that inside the appliance, there are both 240 VAC circuits (Motors, large heating elements, etc.)... And 120 VAC circuits for controls, lights, etc...

    Equipment can be designed to run from 240 VAC only (L1+L2, no Neutral) just fine. Internally, they will either be designed for 240 VAC, or they will have a buck transformer/power supply to take 240 VAC and drop to 120 VAC (or 24 VDC, or xx VDC, etc.).

    That leaves us with the issue of 230/240 VAC single phase (common in much of the world) and 120/240 VAC split phase. Assuming the Franklin pump+controller does not need a "Neutral" to run 120 VAC internal components (i.e., L1 to N or L2 to N @ 120 VAC)--And from the schematic, what I could make out--There are no 120 VAC "elements/loads" in the pump controller/motor. So, the pump system should run from 230/240 VAC just fine.

    Then there is the issue of 120/240 VAC split phase vs 230/240 single phase wiring...

    In North American homes (and small offices, etc.). we have a transformer on the utility pole that is a "center tapped" device that has L1-Center Tap-L2 wiring:

    Ignoring the left side (480/2.4kV/12 kV/etc.)... The right side is a typical single phase output--120/240 VAC split phase specifically.

    Notice that the center tap is ground bonded for safety (lightning, shock hazard, etc.). That means that L1 to gnd and L2 to gnd should never get over 120 VAC to ground.

    In much of the rest of the world, the "center tap" does not exist and L1 OR L2 is ground bonded (usually, but not a world wide convention in different countries--That I have read about over the years). And especially in older power system, the L1 and Ground Neutral polarity was not always carried through to the loads... So, you could have 230 VAC "hot" on one lead, and near 0 VAC neutral on the other lead--Which one, most loads do not care.

    In USA, most standard NEC wiring (for home and business) is rated at 600 VAC insulation (and high-pot tested during mfg. to 1,800 VAC).

    And for USA/North American loads (motors, heaters, electric stoves, etc.) the L1/L2/Neutral input power connections are (or at least should be for UL/NRTL certifications) are also high-pot tested to 1,800 VAC too.

    So running Euro 230 VAC with Hot/Neutral should not be a "hazard" to your pump systems (vs L1/L2 with grounded Neutral/Center-tap North Am power).

    There other standard US power transformer connections (usually around 3 phase power--Wye and Delta connections) that give other power options (in our area, 120/208 VAC (Delta wired 3 phase utility power) is common for smaller office buildings. Where homes are typically 120/240 VAC. If you are interested, here is quick explanation of Wye vs Delta power (does not apply here--You have 230/240 VAC loads):

    https://www.phaseconverterinfo.com/phaseconverter_deltawye.htm

    Back to your system... Again, I cannot really read the details of your Controller schematic (fuzzy)--But from what I can see, you have L1 and L2 input... No internal components make use of L1/N or L2/N 120 VAC connections. There also appears to be NO polarity sensitive loads in the controller (i.e., L1 & L2 inputs... L1=Hot and L2=Neutral, or L1=Neutral, and L2=Hot). I would not worry if the power source was a 120/240 VAC L1/L2/Ground, or a L1/Neutral/Ground power source (both ~230 to 240 VAC @ 60 Hz).
    Unless there is further information that says "it matters" (i.e., a clearer photo of the schematic... Or Franklin Pump Support says "it matters")... It does not appear you have any major Pump=Controller=Inverter issues that would break anything.

    For circuit breakers... You have the option of using only one Breaker on the L1 (high line/hot/230 VAC) side of your main panel. The second line (L2 or really ground referenced neutral) never gets about zero volts, so no breaker is required (just like normal 120/240 VAC split phase power, we don't usually place breakers on the Neutral wires from our power panels).

    If you choose to use two breakers (I would suggest this to keep the "normal" 240 VAC "feel" of north American power systems)--Just wire it as a normal 120/240 VAC power--No neutral power connections). And use double pole breakers--Those that both trip if one is overloaded-=-it turns off it mate... You don't want two single pole breakers... You don't want the "neutral" breaker to trip and leave 240 VAC breaker on and power the circuits--An inadvertent electrocution hazard (and why we don't put fuses/single pole breakers on neutral power circuits).

    And, depending on Franklin's support folks--They may not answer what to do with a 230 VAC Hot/Neutral power supply vs the L1/L2 240 VAC North American split phase power supply (it is not a common power supply option for North America and they may choose to say "nothing" just to be on the safe side).

    Your last "issue" that I could see--If you have lightning in the area--Your choice of surge suppressors may change. With standard 120/240 N.A. power, the voltage never rises above 120 VAC (nominal) wrt to ground. In your case, your "Hot/High" line will be 240 VAC about ground nominal. So a higher voltage suppressor would probably be required--My guess:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/mnspd600.html

    Lots of dancing around here to understand "safety" of 230/240 VAC Euro type circuits and this 240 VAC pump load and how this pump load operates (230/240 VAC power vs the need, or not, for 120 VAC Lx to Neutral power).

    Of course, I am not there on site. I don't have any special knowledge of Franklin pump hardware. And this is not my money. Just evalutting the information you have supplied and my guesses on how the issues play out.

    The decisions and risks are yours (standard Internet disclaimers).

    -Bill



    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DakkerDakker Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭✭
    From my persistence to figure this out.. A few key people, (including yourself) have left me with the answers I need. Thank you much!
    I can't get the job finished right away, but as soon as I get an opportunity to, I'll post my results.
    Thank you Bill!
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