SWR2500 AND SB300( swr3000 wrong date)

Manuel24Manuel24 Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 6 ✭✭
edited July 19 in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Hello
i have 2 inverters Sb3000 and SWR2500, my pv volts is 269 and 4 amps, but both inverter have fail check light, i am newbie in this, 
i have some questions, this inverters can work without off grid? or need connect 220v to the system for work? or is ongrid?

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    Welcome to the forum Manuel24,

    is the SMA SB 3000 one of these?

    https://www.solar-electric.com/sma-sunny-boy-sb3-0-us-grid-tie-inverter.html
    https://www.solar-electric.com/sma-sunny-boy-3-0-1sp-us-41-grid-tie-inverter.html

    SWR 25000?

    https://documents.unboundsolar.com/legacy/pdfs/inverter pdf folder/SMA SB2500U Manual.pdf

    These appear to both be utility interactive inverters (aka Grid Tie Inverters). In general, yes, they both need to be presented with ~240 VAC @ 60 Hz from the utility side, and then they will "qualify" the AC power and "turn on" to transfer power from the solar array to the utility (back feeding power to your--typically--main AC panel) to feed both your local power needs (reduce utility power usage) and even feed extra power "backwards" though the utility meter (and actually turn the meter backwards--If that is your utility's rate plan).

    The SB 3000 also has the ability to, if the utility power fails, to take power directly from the solar array and feed a 120 VAC outlet (emergency power for refrigerator, etc.). They called this the Secure Power Supply function:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/SBxx-US_specifications.pdf

    The SWR is no longer being made and probably would not be a good choice for a new install.

    The newer SB 3000 is still being made and is compliant with the current "Rule 21" specifications (California and others).

    There is a way that you can connect these inverters to a standard "off grid" (or hybrid) AC inverter... The Off Grid inverter provides the 120/240 VAC, and the GT Inverter helps the local AC power and can even drive (some/many modern) Off Grid / Hybrid inverters "backwards" and charge the OG Inverter's battery bank...

    But that does take a bit more discussion about the details (if you think you want to do this). It sometimes is one of those things that you can do, but may not want to for various reasons.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Manuel24Manuel24 Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited July 19 #3
    thanks for your answer, i review my models are the old swr 2500 y swr3000 not sb, sorry for confuse.
    https://www.secondsol.com/en/anzeige/12660/inverters/string-inverters/sma/swr-3000
    this model i have.
    i try to install for my garage room , but dont have ac grid, in my country the grid is 220v 60hz, 
    i think in 2 ideas
    1) install ac in my garage and then connect to my inverter, i need any special equip? or maybe rectifier diode or bridge? or just connect ac wire to the inverter with breaker?
    I am afraid to connect the inverter to the electrical grid, maybe a short circuit could occur?
    2) use a battery with any small inverter. this por example : 
    https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4001305907080.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.41d771eeB0CI5e&aem_p4p_detail=20210718192806326545644593240054526868
    and i think is need a rectifier diode for the current with one direction: small inverter to rectifier diode to breaker 10amp to swr2500? this can work?

    and if this work, can the swr2500 stay connected 24 hrs, what happens when the sun goes down?

     sorry for my bad english.

    i have video from my inverter:



    Manuel

  • Manuel24Manuel24 Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 6 ✭✭

    thanks for your answer, i review my models are the old swr 2500 y swr3000 not sb, sorry for confuse.
    https://www.secondsol.com/en/anzeige/12660/inverters/string-inverters/sma/swr-3000
    this model i have.
    i try to install for my garage room , but dont have ac grid, in my country the grid is 220v 60hz, 
    i think in 2 ideas
    1) install ac in my garage and then connect to my inverter, i need any special equip? or maybe rectifier diode or bridge? or just connect ac wire to the inverter with breaker?

    I am afraid to connect the inverter to the electrical grid, maybe a short circuit could occur?
    2) use a battery with any small inverter. this por example : 
    https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4001305907080.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.41d771eeB0CI5e&aem_p4p_detail=20210718192806326545644593240054526868
    and i think is need a rectifier diode for the current with one direction: small inverter to rectifier diode to breaker 10amp to swr2500? this can work?

    and if this work, can the swr2500 stay connected 24 hrs, what happens when the sun goes down?

     sorry for my bad english.

    i have video from my inverter:


  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    Your English is quite readable... So not a problem (I just survive in one language--So I am not one to point at others).

    The KDSafe MSW 220 VAC inverter is something like what you would need to run from solar+inverter+battery bank...

    HOWEVER, this inverter will probably not work for your needs... There are several issues:
    1. Air Conditioners take a lot of power. A 500 Watt inverter will not supply enough power for most home Air Conditioners. Depending on what A/C system you purchase, you could easily need a 1,800-2,400 Watt or larger inverter (plus solar panels+battery bank+solar battery charger) to run most common A/C systems
    2. This is an "MSW" type inverter. That is a "Modified Sine/Square Wave" type inverter. Most standard A/C compressors will be noisy and/or even overheat and have a shorter life running on MSW power. The preferred type of inverter is TSW/PSW type or "True/Pure" Sine Wave. This is what your utility power is (pure sine wave). Standard 220 VAC motors, electronics, home loads will run fine on PSW power. Were "some appliances" will run hot/fail/run noisy on MSW power.
    If you want to learn more about inverters and generators--This website has a lot of interesting information (it was written for Movie and TV crews to run lighting, cameras, and other equipment):

    http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html

    I am not finding very much information on the SWR (vs SB) SMA inverters on the web (I am not in the solar business, just a volunteer here).

    As far as I can tell, these inverters or "utility interactive" or "grid tied" AC (220 VAC 50/60 Hz) inverters. These are designed to connect directly to your utility fuse/circuit breaker box and feed your local power needs and send any "extra" power back to the utility (and make your utility's electric meter turn backwards).

    Assuming they are still good, legal for your use (in Peru?), and you follow local regulations, installing (one or both) inverters to your home (solar panels=>GT Inverter=>Main electric panel) would be the way to go. The GT inverter will supply power to your local loads and reduce your electric bill.

    GT Inverters are designed to only connect to your electric grid / 220 VAC 60 Hz (or 50 Hz) and supply energy to your home/electric grid.

    GT Inverters cannot run "by themselves" and generate 220 VAC 60 Hz for you to use to power your other AC loads (sometimes called a "micro grid" or very small local grid).

    There are newer GT Inverters that can have the ability to run that way (solar panels=>GT inverter=>Stand alone 220 VAC (or 120 VAC) power to run your AC appliances "off grid"). The newer SB family of inverters appears to have that option. Your older SWR do not (again, from what I can find). But there are difficulties doing this Secure Power Supply function as SMA calls it)--Your inverter can only output 120 VAC at full power/current during the middle of the day. In mornings/evenings (and of course, at night) it cannot reliably make enough 220 VAC power to run your Air Conditioner--And the inverter will shut down.

    There is no "simple" method to make your SWR inverter run without connecting to 220 VAC utility power (the grid). They are designed to shut down safely if there is no or unreliable 220 VAC power (keep everyone safe).

    If you want to power your Air Conditioner(s) from solar--There are no "cheap" (inexpensive) methods to do this. They will all take time and money (and possibly permits with local officials and utilty engineers).

    Quickly, a summary of possible options
    1. Get new SB (or similar) GT Inverter with secure power function (and accept that you only get power from roughly 9am to 3pm)
    2. Install a full off grid (or hybrid) AC inverter, + Solar panels, + large battery bank, etc.
    3. Build/install a DC powered Air Conditioner (they do make DC powered AC systems for travel trailers, boats, etc.). Not cheap or simple. And you would still need Solar Panels+Battery bank+Solar charge controller
    4. There are newer "Inverter" based Air Conditioners... The "inverter" inside of the air conditioner can (possibly) take 120-380 VDC and run the air conditioner--But this is not a simple thing to do, and may not be practical (yes, you could run the compressor, but not the circulating fan or electronics--Don't know and would vary by manufacturer anyway).
    5. Find a solar powered air conditioner. There are (were?) a few of those out there. Many take both solar+220 VAC power to you have A/C 24 hours per day:
    https://smartairconditionerlab.com/solar-powered-air-conditioners

    We here always recommend to NOT BUY any solar equipment until you have a full paper design. You need to get the details correct for any major electrical/power project before buying/building. It is easy to buy hardware "on sale" that will not really work for your needs.

    By the way--Is my writing clear enough for your to read/understand? I don't know how technical (deep into the engineering) you wish to get.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    Regarding your earlier post--It went into my Spam Review folder (several links and a video) because you are a "new poster". I have approved your post--And this should not happen again to you.

    The SWR XXXX is (most likely) a "simple" GT 220 VAC inverter... You can connect to your solar panels, but it will not generate 220 VAC 60 Hz AC power on its output (part of its safety circuit design).

    The way it will work... Connect the DC input to your solar array. And the AC output to your home's 220 VAC 60 Hz utility power.
    • Turn on AC power to SWR (nothing much should happen)
    • Turn on DC solar power to SWR (see flashing green LED?)
    • Wait for ~5 minutes. After 5 minutes of "good" 220 VAC 60 Hz utility power, then the SWR will "qualify" the AC power and start taking power (Watts) from your solar array and send the power (Watts) to your home's main panel
    • From there as you get full sun, the GT inverter will supply power to your main panel to run your loads (lights, cooking, TV, computer, etc.). And you will not see anything different (completely transparent) different with your loads.
    • Watching your AC meter, you should see it slow down, possibly stop (solar power = home loads) or even start to turn backwards (solar>home loads).
    The above is assuming your SWR is made for Peru's utility power (i.e., 220 VAC @ 60 Hz).

    Also, your utility meter may or may not "turn backwards".... Because (long answer coming).

    Utilities do not "like" solar power on homes. They lose money. With a "simple" or "basic" utility power meter, they are buying power from you at the same price they sell it to you--And they have to pay for the utility wires/transformers/generators/etc....

    Older electric meters may turn backwards if you generate more power than you use (i.e., 2,000 Watts from solar and 800 Watt load => 1,200 Watts flowing "backwards" to the utility).

    So--The utilities (at least in some countries) have new electric meters that will NOT turn backwards if you back feed them, or with very new electronic meters, they can even charge you for back feeding power to the utility (charge you for giving them "free power"). In my area, they will only give you meters that "turn backwards" if we have registered with the utility that we have approved Solar GT Inverter power.

    I do not know what Peru Power does or does not do.

    There are lots of reason why utilities do things with their meters--But the end result is they are looking to make money selling energy. The whole GT inverter is a "green" push by governments--Nothing the utility would do on its own.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    Regarding connecting an "inverter" to your electrical grid.

    Details Matter--And doing it wrong, you could hurt yourself, ruin your equipment, or even start a fire. Do not connect equipment unless you know exactly what type of equipment you have and if it is designed and rated for what you want to do,.

    A "typical" Grid Tied / Utility Interactive 220 VAC 60 Hz SWR inverter should be perfectly safe to connect to your home main fuse/breaker panel. Using conduit or other approved wiring/cabling techniques and hardware.

    Installing solar panels on racks (ground mount, roof mount, etc.) needs to be done safely too... You don't want the solar panels to blow away in a wind storm. And you don't want a simple short circuit (say solar wiring insulation cut) to the solar racking to electrocute somebody (proper grounding, making sure no sharp edges of metal cutting insulation, etc.).

    And the issues (previous post) of how your electric meter is built/designed/configured.

    You would never take an "Off Grid" AC inverter and connect its output to your AC Utility Grid. For an Off Grid/stand alone AC inverter, yes you would create a short circuit.

    There are some Off Grid inverters that have internal transfer switches That can take AC grid or AC Generator in (when available)--And if AC power fails, turn on and use battery power to run a few "local" 220 VAC lloads.

    And there are now "hybrid" AC inverters that can do both Off Grid and GT Inverter functions. They are not much more expensive than standard Off Grid AC inverters and have lots of interesting capabilities (AC power, Generator power, DC battery power, On Grid, GT feed power backwards when grid is available, auto switch to backup generator, charge the battery bank for AC1 or AC2 inputs, etc....

    Such Hybrid Systems are very capable, and in many cases are used for pure off grid+generator use. And they are about as close as you can get to a "magic box" that will take Utility AC, Generator AC, Solar DC, DC Battery Bank, etc.) and combine them all together in one "black box".

    Hybrid Inverter-Chargers can be very nice... But they are complex pieces of hardware, and you need to know what you are doing if you are going to install a system yourself. There is software that needs to be programmed/configured, lots of different electrical connections to be made, and dealing with lots of dangerous power (220 VAC from utility, from genset, a large 24 or 48 VDC battery bank that can make heavy copper cables glow red/start fires if wired wrong, etc.).

    Be Safe. Be careful.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Manuel24Manuel24 Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 6 ✭✭
    Thank you very much for allowing the video and for all the information, you have really cleared a lot of doubts and I have learned a lot.
    In my country the electric light companies do not buy energy, it is not regulated, the energy meters only mark in one direction and never turn in reverse.
    I want to try an isolated project (that is, without connecting to the public grid)
    as well as in the figure:
    but I need to inject 220v to the swr2500 inverter from the psw inverter, but when the current produced from the swr2500 inverter goes out it will go to the psw inverter and explode, I would like to know if there is any way to make the current go one way from the psw inverter and it does not return or input the current from the inverter swr2500 to the psw (I was thinking of rectifier diodes), I do this project because I have everything except the psw 600w.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    edited July 21 #9
    Manual,

    Yes, your drawing is "sort of" accurate and can work. However, there are some limitations:
    • The off grid AC inverter must be PSW/TSW type. The GT Inverter needs a sign sine wave voltage signal
    • The OG Inverter should be Larger (higher wattage) than the GT Inverter. A GT Inverter (especially the older ones) are (sort of) open loop control. The GT inverter takes 100% of the available solar power and converts to to 220 VAC @ 60 Hz. And the OG Inverter will either supply power to your loads (if GT Inverter < Power than loads) or the OG Inverter will take the extra power (GT Inverter>AC Loads) and the power will flow "backwards" through the OG Inverter and charge the battery bank.
    • So, the battery bank needs to be larger too--Both to supply your TSW Inverters maximum AC loads, and the Charging Current from the GT inverter.
    • Which then leads us to another issue--Standard OG inverters are not designed to charge the battery bank when operating "in reverse". So you have to setup "something" to either "dump" excess charging current (to an electric heater) or turn off the GT Inverter (cut the AC line with a relay).
    • And while many TSW OG AC inverters can operate "in reverse" and charge the battery bank--You will have to find ones that will work for you (the supplier usually not tell you about this function).
    Some newer Off Grid (and Hybrid) AC inverters are actually designed to to this--And so are some newer GT inverters (they can be "trottled" by the the OG inverter shift line frequency a bit +/- from 60 Hz center frequency).

    There are reasons people have built "micro grid" systems like this... Typically when you have a small "village" with distributed homes/inverters/solar panels. Use the 220 VAC micro grid to "move power" between "micro power stations" in the village. Both with solar and wind turbines.

    The SMA Sunny Island system is an example of this (and you can probably find much better explanations of how everything plays together than I can post here):

    https://www.solar-electric.com/sma-sunny-island-6048-us-inverter.html

    The longer answer--In general, most people "are not happy" if their 220 VAC power fails because some clouds came by and blocked the sun, the water pump starts, or only having 220 VAC from 10am to 2pm on sunny days.

    First find a simple/cheap AC power meter (Kill-a-Watt is a famous brand in the USA to start a search):

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=kill+a+watt+meter&ref=nb_sb_noss

    So, the usual suggestion is figure your daily loads (made up example) from your Kill-a-Watt readings (remember Watts is Power or a rate like km/hr for 25 km/hr... Watt*Hours is distance driven--Like 25 km/hr * 2 hours = 50 km driven). 
    • 50 Watt TV * 5 hours a day = 250 Watt*Hours per day
    • 13 Watt LED lighting * 8 hours per day = 104 WH per day
    • 250+104= 354 WH per day (@ 220 VAC)
    Then sizing the battery bank. 2 days of "stored energy" and 50% max discharge (for longer battery life):
    • 354 WH per day * 1/0.85 AC inverter eff * 2 days storage * 1/0.50 max discharge * 1/12 volt battery bank = 139 AH @ 12 volt battery bank
    Typical suggestion would be 2x 6 volt @ 200 AH "golf cart" batteries in series for 12 volts @ 200 AH battery bank.

    Sizing solar... Two calculations. One based on size of battery bank (more batteries, more base charging current). And the second based on your energy usage per day (and amount of sun per day for your location):

    5% rate of charge can work--mostly for sunny climates/summer/weekend cabin... 10%-13% typical for full time off grid minimum suggested:
    • 200 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 solar panel+charge controller deratings * 0.05 rate of charge = 188 Watt array minimum 
    • 200 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 solar panel+charge controller deratings * 0.10 rate of charge = 377 Watt array nominal
    • 200 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 solar panel+charge controller deratings * 0.13 rate of charge = 490 Watt "typical" cost effective maximum array
    And based on sun. Fixed array facing north for Lima Peru:
    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

    Lima
    Average Solar Insolation figures

    Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 78° angle from vertical (12 degrees from horizontal:
    (For best year-round performance)

    JanFebMarAprMayJun
    5.77
     
    5.58
     
    5.82
     
    6.12
     
    6.09
     
    5.61
     
    JulAugSepOctNovDec
    5.78
     
    5.94
     
    5.91
     
    5.71
     
    6.35
     
    6.27
     

    Looks like you have lots of sun... Based on 354 WH per day (a very small system):
    • 354 WH per day * 1/0.52 off grid AC system eff * 1/5.61 Hours of Sun per average June day = 121 Watt array minimum
    • For reliable operation you should 2x the area wattage or around 242 Watt array
    For a smaller system above, strings 242 to 377 Watt array would be a nice fit.

    And for a 200 ah 12 volt battery bank, a 100 to 500 Watt AC inverter would be a nice fit (larger inverter than you need can waste energy).

    Anyway an example of the math. I will stop here. Typing on my phone now is confusing my forum software editor. [fixed the formatting. -BB]

    Questions?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Manuel24Manuel24 Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 6 ✭✭
    Thanks for the information.....
    I was finally able to understand how it works, I only have this question:
    
    When the swr2500 is connected to ac power from the grid, can it stay connected every day 24/7 or should I turn down the dc breaker and the ac power breaker always when the sun goes down?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    Fixed typo above (sine wave, not sign)--Ugh.

    The GT Inverter is designed to be connected 100% of the time to your utility power. It will take any and all power available from the solar array and send it to your panel (loads, back feed AC power, etc. as the sun rises and sets).

    Typically, GT Inverters may draw a couple Watts at night when the sun is down... Not enough power to worry about as this will be quickly replaced by the solar power when the sun is up the next day feeding 1,000's of Watts into your main panel).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Manuel24Manuel24 Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited July 22 #12

    Thank you so much, finally can i use this inverter.

    Now I have a new question, I have seen that there are inverters that can be connected in parallel:

    my question is can I connect my swr2500 with my swr3000 in parallel?

    I need the same power and DC voltage in both inverters and the orientation of the panels must be the same?          
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    In general, each solar array+GT Inverter is the "set". Array A with GT inverter A, Array B with GT inverter B... They are combined at your main fuse/breaker panel.

    In general, you cannot have one solar array connected to two GT Inverters in parallel (paralleled on the DC input side). Each GT inverter assumes it is in "control" of its solar array. They vary the current and voltage of the solar array to find the optimum Vmp & Imp (voltage and current maximum power) point for that array at that time/temperature/amount of sunlight. If you put two GT inverters on one array--They "confuse" each other (and trip other GT Inverter safety circuits too).

    However, no problem at all having the GT Inverters "paralleled" on the AC output side (follow code/safe practices for correct sized wiring, fuses/breakers/etc.). Just like you plug in a floor lamp and a hair drier in your home--Those are paralleled on the AC utility 240 VAC power.

    The two GT inverters cannot "see each other" on the 240 VAC circuit.

    Of course--GT inverters may not be "legal" on your utility power... And if the GT inverter > than your loads--You have to know what your power meter does (not move, move backwards, or even move forward). And the latest electronic meters (usually have a wireless network to talk with the utility) can "flag" homes that are using GT inverters (USA capabilities and possible outcomes--what happens in Peru--I have no idea).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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