classic 150, etc versus Schneider Electric Charge controllers

jtdiesel65

..I  posted this in grid tie by mistake, but I'm off grid.

Has anybody done a performance comparison of these two? I like the reporting on the SE equipment better, but I don't know how they compare otherwise.

thx

Dave Angelini

What make inverter do you have? To me it is crazy to not use all of the same equipment for networking. 

Dave Angelini

Below is the Schneider Mppt-100-600v. They also have an 80A and 60A version.

Graham Parkinson

 Isn't the new "Shade Tolerant" feature just available on the new Mppt-100-600V? The Mppt-80-600V has the Fast Sweep feature, not sure if the Mppt-60-150 has either.  Would be good for Schneider to incorporate these features across their controller line.

From Schneider Website:  "The Conext MPPT 100.

"There are many reasons to add storage to a home solar system but, for many, the chief attraction is the ability to keep loads running during power outages—a point which power electronics company Schneider Electric‘s newest product claims to improve on.

The company has launched its Conext MPPT 100 high-power solar charge controller, which purportedly ramps up charging power 25% compared to predecessor the MPPT 80. Usually, if a battery dies at night, or after prolonged power outages, an inverter will not charge the battery from the PV array at daybreak, as grid power is needed to reboot the system. Schneider's charge controller, however, would enable  recharging from PV after the whole installation has come to a halt. Thus, the system for DC-coupled solutions can also work entirely off-grid, if required. The manufacturer was keen to stress, though, the new charge controller works in tandem with the grid to optimize self-sufficiency.

Charge controllers manage the charge current going into the battery and according to the product datasheet, the MPPT 100 produces a considerable, 100 A charge current. Though the device is rated at 6 kW, it can be connected to slightly oversized arrays of up to 7 kW, says the manufacturer.

The product is designed to operate at 600 V, including the temperature correction factor, which drives a reduction in balance-of-system costs. The manufacturer said owners can benefit from 50% less wiring on the two input strings to the controller, compared to low-voltage products. The charge control is carried out by a three-stage set-up in which bulk, absorption and float methods are used, in addition to the option of manual equalization.

In terms of battery voltage, Schneider's new device can handle 24 and 48 V products. The battery operation voltage range was announced as 16-67 Vdc. The higher the battery voltage, the better the power conversion efficiency, according to the manufacturer, with 95% efficiency measured for 48 V battery technologies and 92% for 24 V devices. Equipped with a wide operating voltage range – 195-550 V for the PV system – and a similarly open MPPT voltage range, of 195-510 Vdc, the manufacturer says its product offers greater flexibility in string sizing than rivals. The MPPT algorithm is also said to be shade tolerant and ‘fast sweeping,' according to Schneider, further improving the energy harvest.

The charge controller can be used as a standalone product or combined with Schneider's XW Pro, XW+, and SW storage inverters, added the manufacturer. In either case, Schneider says the product allows for the omission of DC breakers, combiner boxes and fuses.

Installers can also benefit from Schneider Electric's Insight energy management platform, said the company, which offers remote settings management and maintenance to keep truck rolls to a minimum. The system also supports portfolio monitoring and management tools, enabling installers to keep track of multiple assets.

The software can, of course, also be used by homeowners to tinker with settings or monitor array performance from their phones.

For customers in the U.S., an accessory is required to comply with NEC 2017 module-level rapid shutdown requirements and enable full equipment disconnection, and Schneider's MPPT Disconnect RS product is available."

mcgivor

Morningstar ts-mppt has similar fast sweeping thy call TrakStar, they are one of the best with excellent support well worth considering if all that's required is a controller. Personally I'm happy with the Schneider 60 150 MPPT but I'm sure all the top manufacturers Midnight Outback etcetera  are good, some have fans which make noise, Schneider and Morningstar are passively cooled. There have been past discussion linked below,.

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/349833/morningstar-mppt-60-vs-outback-flexmax-or-mx-60-comparison

Photowhit

jtdiesel65 said:

Has anybody done a performance comparison of these two? I like the reporting on the SE equipment better, but I don't know how they compare otherwise.

My guess is they will be very close.

The Midnite designers are some of the first (They are the people who designed an effective MPPT type controller at Outback before selling the company) As has been stated they have fans which can be loud if they are installed in a RV or inside a home. I've always designed my systems to live outside and have been using Midnite Classic 150's for 8 years now. Other than some minor issues updating the software on them, they have been very reliable. 

I like Midnite and Schneider as the offer single shunt based battery monitoring. Outback does some adding and subtracting with a separate piece of equipment, and others don't. 

I'm NOT someone to worry about monitoring a bunch of equipment, I don't see the big advantage that Dave does, but I've never had an alternate source of power for my systems and only keep track of one, I've never monitored my inverter in any meaningful way but it's my system, I can tell you 24/7 likely minimum and maximum lads on it. Dave may monitor 100 different systems remotely for his clients.

Dave Angelini

The networking, to me just makes it easier for others. The system manager/installer/owner should be able to get by without a network.

And many do! 

Networking does also allow one to go back in time and see what was happening graphwise X months ago. Extremely helpful ! If you have a warranty it can really speed up a claim also.

I did field validation for Schneider on almost all of their equipment. We are close! Both of the high voltage controllers are
 shade tolerant / fast sweep and the same basic circuitry. They have dual fans and are convection cooled to run many months with dead fans. Same as XW. The 60 amp mppt does not have the fan and it's mppt circuit algorithm is not the same as it was developed before their PHD did the high voltage mppt work. I think Bill has it linked in the FAQ here.

Rainwater pumping day here, we have 7,500 gals to move up the hill.

jtdiesel65

Thanks for the info.

I'm currently using two xw4024s, SCP, AGS, conext gateway, two classic 150s-one with wizbangjr, forklift battery, and trimetric. I've been looking for more remote monitoring because once Covid is over I want to go places. I recently did a firmware update on the classics to be able to use mymidnite, but one of them won't connect even after the update.  It needs to be RMA'ed to be fixed, replaced, or whatever.  It works fine otherwise. It's just the mymidnite feature that won't work. The classics were installed before 2012 so putting money into them doesn't seem worthwhile. I'm not sure what life expectancy is on these or if the one with the mymidnite problem will develop other problems.  Granted it's probably not super critical to see output from both classics, but I've been thinking of just replacing them with SE equipment which would allow me to see stats via the gateway.

I do have some positive plate growth on the forklift battery and so longer term, I'm considering moving to 48v which would most likely be a single xw6048. I'm not likely to move away from SE equipment.

Dave Angelini

Travel, what is that? A great reason to network....Have a good 2021 ! Not so sure about it being great but good will do nicely!

Vic

Hi jt..,

The MidNite Classics sweep very fast,  in "Solar"  Mode.   And are very rugged controllers,   and are at least one generation newer tech,  than the SE 150-60  (or whatever they are calling that CC,  today).

MidNite does give superior Support for their products,  vs Schneider  --  you have recently gotten great Support via the MidNite Forum on that one Classsic that is not reporting into MyMidnite.   Schneider has NO Forum.   AND,  several  of the MidNite Founders are active on the MN Forum (boB and Robin).

Always a lot of tradeoffs on which CC is best.   Just my opinions,   Good Luck, Vic

jtdiesel65

The classics have worked well. Yes there are tradeoffs.

I have two arrays each with 12 Suntech STP170-24/Ab-1 [1]. It looks like if I was 48 volt, I could just use one of the SE100's.  There is an operational window however. I'm not sure if the ideal is to have max pv fall between 230v and 510v.  One array in a single string is 523.2 voc, 422.4 vmp, and 5.14a Isc. If I make that into two strings, then it's 262.8 voc, 211.2 vmp, and 10.28 isc.  It looks like one string is the way to go, but I would need two SE100 since I'm at 24v. Does that sound right?

[1] https://documents.unboundsolar.com/legacy/pdfs/module pdf folder/suntech.160-175.pdf

Vic

jt,

Schneider MUST have a String Sizer.

The range that you noted for the SE,  IS its MPPT voltage range  --   so the calc should be done using string Vmp.   There needs to be a temperature-compensated clac of the Max Voc for the lowest (ever) temperature for the location of the PV array,  to make sure that the absolute maximum Voc does not exceed the limit for the CC.

Do you use any of the many Aux functions that are built into the Classics?    The SE CCs usually have very limited Aux functions (IMO).

FWIW,   back to work,   Good Luck.

Vic

Hi jt..,

Couple of things:   First,  if the WbJr is connected to the Classic that does report in,  to MM2,   then  in general that  will provide much of the info that you would want for a given day.   If you notice a PV production problem,   then you would like to be able to see the info from the second Classic,   IMO.

Looks like strings of 12 PVs would probably exceed the Max Voc spec of the SE 600V  CCs.   SOmehow,  thought that your coldest temp at the array was -10 F,   but cannot now find that reference,  so,   musta been another member with that temp.

You might be able to use the following PV String calculator,   cannot find one offered by  Schneider (how can that be  ???   Must be vision impaired):
Solectria String Sizing Tool | free solar design tool | RENVU

Just thinking about the Voc for strings of 12 of your 170s,  that Voc could easily be exceeded with reasonable cold temps.

AND,  what is the indication of the Plate growth of your forklift battery,  that you  referred to,  above?

Thanks,  Good Luck,   HNY,  VIc

jtdiesel65

Vic said:

Hi jt..,

Couple of things:   First,  if the WbJr is connected to the Classic that does report in,  to MM2,   then  in general that  will provide much of the info that you would want for a given day.   If you notice a PV production problem,   then you would like to be able to see the info from the second Classic,   IMO.

Looks like strings of 12 PVs would probably exceed the Max Voc spec of the SE 600V  CCs.   SOmehow,  thought that your coldest temp at the array was -10 F,   but cannot now find that reference,  so,   musta been another member with that temp.

You might be able to use the following PV String calculator,   cannot find one offered by  Schneider (how can that be  ???   Must be vision impaired):
Solectria String Sizing Tool | free solar design tool | RENVU

Just thinking about the Voc for strings of 12 of your 170s,  that Voc could easily be exceeded with reasonable cold temps.

AND,  what is the indication of the Plate growth of your forklift battery,  that you  referred to,  above?

Thanks,  Good Luck,   HNY,  VIc

The positive posts on the battery are now taller than the negative ones. Some cells more than others. At some point I think the plastic will break or crack As the posts get taller. Yeah I'm going to move the wiz bang junior To the other controller Thanks

BB.

As the positive plates/grid corrode over time, they tend to expand (if I understand correctly, that is caused by oxygen generated during charging/gassing--A normal process that can be made worse by charging at too high of voltage for too long of time). That expansion pushes the positive battery post up--And is generally an indication of eventual battery failure.

-Bill

Vic

Ok jt,  thanks for the detail,  and having the Wb on the reporting-Classic should give you a  lotta info.

Yes,  BB Bill,  just have not seen this on Lead Antimony FLA batteries,  knew that it might occur,  just had not seen this.   Fairly common on Lead Calcium batteries as they age  ...   had assumed that jt's batteries were Lead Antimony,  which they probably are,  and so on.

Thanks,   Vic

jtdiesel65

Initially I thought that maybe it was the battery caps were not allowing the cells to gas which caused the plastic to expand, but it's definitely something happening on the positive side. It was installed early 2012 and is this one:

https://gb-battery.com/products/ols/products/new-12-125-17-battery-24-volt-1000ah

Maybe I can take a picture of it.  IIRC I first noticed it early last year. SPG numbers are still good.

Charging sources are configured at absorb at 30.4, eq at 31.6, float 27.2. 30.4 might be a bit high. Probably should be 29.6.

BB.

30.4 volts charging sounds a bit high. 29.5 volts or so seems to be more typical.

A quick search did not return any specific charging voltages... Just this general care guide:

http://www.battery-additive.com/ProperBatteryCare.html

Looks like (if running a forklift with deep cycles every day)--You would need to check/add water every 10 days (and older batteries every 5 days)...

And they suggest avoiding "short/shallow" cycling... I.e., don't plug in for a recharge during lunch---That counts as another charge/discharge cycle and shortens the overall useful life...

-Bill 

jtdiesel65

I'm not sure where I got 30.4.  I'm going to dial it back and monitor specific gravity. The system is setup to charge at ~60% capacity.  I'm not sure anything can really be done regarding short/shallow cycling especially in winter. The sun comes out when the sun comes out and you more or less have to take advantage of it.

thanks

Vic

30.4 V Abs,  does sound a bit hot for Absorb,   but not out-of-line by too much.Surrette FLAs now have a recommended Abs voltage of 60 V.  And,   this is with the normal 1.265 SG electrolyte.   Forklift batteries often have 1.285-ish SG,  or even higher,  which could dictate an even higher Abs voltage,   for off-grid use.

Thanks for the photo of the battery post lifting.   Certainly noticeable.   Thanks.    FWIW,  Vic

jakobw

I realize your pretty much only talking about FLA batteries here (plenty of experience with those) but if comparing charge controllers, a thought that might also be worth considering is Lithium compatibility. Personally I have had to stop considering MN/OB or SE for client installations when installed with LiFePo4 (or lithium in general) as they don't have CAN bus for BMS integration. SE does have CAN on thier gateway but integration is not trivial IMHO. I really like SE and if they ever integrate the Sundraft V4 protocol, it would definitely be on my list to possibly consider again. Right now Victron controllers using a GX device are pretty much the only company I have found with fairly seamless BMS integration and Distributed Voltage Current Control (DVCC). allowing the BMS to control all charging/discharging parameters in realtime. Granted most of my installs are off-grid AC-Coupled but for those that are DC-Coupled, Victron appears to have the lead until other companies catch up. Good pricing as well (for installers). Just my 2 cents.

Photowhit

jakobw said:

...are pretty much the only company I have found with fairly seamless BMS integration and Distributed Voltage Current Control (DVCC). allowing the BMS to control all charging/discharging parameters in realtime. Granted most of my installs are off-grid AC-Coupled but for those that are DC-Coupled, Victron appears to have the lead until other companies catch up. Good pricing as well (for installers). Just my 2 cents.

Likely Midnite has learned a bunch from being the most innovative engineers (they are the people who did the first reliable MPPT controller at Outback, before the sold the company). The Midnite Classic is nearing nearing 10 years old now, they are working on introducing a new controller/system. Here's a promo photo with likely specs.

Vic

The first Beta Hawkes Bay CCs have shipped in the past week,  or so.

Agree with Photowhit,   the original OB MX-60 are still in service in many locations,  very capable,  solid and reliable,   as are the MN Classics.  Got my first Classic,  a few days more than 10 years ago  --  solid,  and has a number of functions that no other MPPT CCs have.

FWIW,  Vic

Riley

Well this is a good thread for me. I am considering upgrading my charge controller. As I plan to expand my PV array, I am running into current handling limits of my 6AWG PV run. It's a long story but adding another PV array run to the rooftop is a real challenge (consider it a hard design constraint) . So I am considering upgrading to a higher voltage system (hence my other thread on mixed gear). I really like having the integrated Schneider Insight SW as having one place to monitor the system is sweet but I suppose I could live with a dog's breakfast of different SW apps. 

My question: I want to understand how well the Schneider 100-600 controller will perform in low light conditions. Let's say I have 2 strings of 10 panels with a total string Vmp of 333 VDC. Given the controller doesn't perform MPPT tracking until 230VDC, does that mean it's not providing any power until 230VDC?

More importantly on a super cloudy day, will I get even 200 or 300+ watts from it? I'd like to be able to "break even" on those days so that at least I'm treading water and not discharging my battery bank on cloudy days. I have no idea what panel voltage is present on those cloudy days but on my Schneider 60/150 controller, I can get least get 100W to 200W from those cloudy conditions. 

edit - Fixed some typos and clarified what my question is. 

Wheelman55

The voltage remains more or less constant. The amps vary depending on the intensity of the light. More light, more amps. More amps, more watts produced. 

BB can explain in depth:)

Wheelman55

Riley. Start a new thread for best response. 

Happy New Year!

Graham Parkinson

Interested in Riley's potential new thread on controllers in low light - We are trying to decide between multiple SE MPPT 150-60 controllers and the higher voltage SE 80-600 or 100-600 MPPT units for a 5KW system for the cloudy Pacific Northwest where low light performance is a key design factor.

Riley

Me too. I will start that tomorrow but I answered myself my basic question - if these high voltage systems that require 200VDC to even function will work in heavy overcast conditions. I just realized that in an low voltage 150V controller, you still need to be about 10V higher than the battery bank to function. In my 48V system, that's like 70 volts or more... So one could say that on a heavy overcast day, I am needing 70V/3 panels to get any charge so that's 23 volts from a 33 volt panel (and from practical experience I get that). so on a string of 8, that's just enough to make the high voltage controller function. It's not all that different..

I am sure my thinking above isn't very clear but I will make a new thread tomorrow... if anybody cares... Maybe better to put in the Midnite forum where there's more users. 
 

Photowhit

Riley said:

Me too. I will start that tomorrow but I answered myself my basic question - if these high voltage systems that require 200VDC to even function will work in heavy overcast conditions. I just realized that in an low voltage 150V controller, you still need to be about 10V higher than the battery bank to function. In my 48V system, that's like 70 volts or more... So one could say that on a heavy overcast day, I am needing 70V/3 panels to get any charge so that's 23 volts from a 33 volt panel (and from practical experience I get that). so on a string of 8, that's just enough to make the high voltage controller function. It's not all that different..

I am sure my thinking above isn't very clear but I will make a new thread tomorrow... if anybody cares... Maybe better to put in the Midnite forum where there's more users. 
 

Midnite makes things very clear.
From the bottom of the Midnite string sizing tool;



I used to see this in other manufactures info, I suspect it's across the board.

Riley

Except on these 500/600V high voltage charge controllers, it's not 30% higher, it's like 4x higher (or 400%). For example they need about 200Voc for a 48V battery bank. Very different kettle of fish and it freaked me out. Also the Schneider manual makes it sound like it wont even turn on until the approx 200volts. I wasn't sure under heavy cloud, I'd get 200VDC on my string of 10 or 12 panels. 

I need to go find that sizing tool to play around (instead my homegrown excel sheet). 
I am getting keen on making the upgrade to a high voltage charge controller but I need to change my combiner and other breakers in the system to handle those voltages. 

Riley

Graham Parkinson said:

Interested in Riley's potential new thread on controllers in low light - We are trying to decide between multiple SE MPPT 150-60 controllers and the higher voltage SE 80-600 or 100-600 MPPT units for a 5KW system for the cloudy Pacific Northwest where low light performance is a key design factor.

Maybe we need a therapy group for people in the PNW. Not only are we depressed in the winter due to low sunlight and propane/gas  fumes from generators, we have challenges with PV panels in low light.