Wind generator problem HELP!!!

gavgav Posts: 10Registered Users ✭✭
edited June 28 in Wind Power Generation #1
hi I have a air breeze 200 connected to my batteries and it goes into regulation mode while using my battery charger but does not stop after I stop charging even when battery volts have dropped this is 12 volt system . I have taken the Terminals off goes into free spin but once I connect it again it is still in regulation braking . I have disconnected the charger and solar panels still no avail. I have 3600 amps on this system. I had only 400 amp system before and it did the same.Any help please
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  • BB.BB. Posts: 28,090Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    edited June 29 #2
    Moved from other discussion:
    gav said:
    hi I have 2 volt tubular gel batteries and where wondering what these batteries holding rate is ( volts) and when charging what max volts should it be? This is 12 volt series. I have a picture of them in wind generator help.i have a 50 amp protects charger should I put it to power supply when charging daily which holds at 13.8 and only charge with stage charging once a week or month.?

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Posts: 28,090Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Just to get a handle on your system... Looks like you have Enirgi ARG-12-OPzV-1680 2 volt cells:

    http://www.enirgipower.com.au/media/1048/enirgi-advance-factsheet.pdf

    For our rules of thumbs, we use the 20 Hour capacity, which for these cells is 1,618 AH (still a good size cell).

    For wiring, the intercell connections are very nice... I would be a bit concerned about the +/- "battery bus"... Here is a nice webpage on how to make sure that cells get good current sharing with parallel strings:

    http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

    I know you asked about your wind turbine--But I want to make sure your bank is getting good solar (and backup) charging first. Batteries that sit around at less than ~75% state of charge, sulfate and go bad fairly quickly (Flooded Cell Lead acid batteries, GEL should be similar issues--But I am not a battery engineer).

    Here is the generic information from Enirgi:

    http://www.enirgipower.com.au/tech-support/battery-maintenance/charging/

    I could not find a manual for your brand of battery--But for OPzV series, here is a nice one:

    http://www.enersys-emea.com/reserve/pdf/EN-PS-OPzV-OG-004_0113.pdf

    I am guessing that these are VRLA GEL (valve regulated lead acid batteries--lower charging voltages than flooded cell).

    From the Enirgi website, the generic charger specification is:

    http://www.enirgipower.com.au/tech-support/battery-maintenance/charger-selection/
    Battery Charger Selection
    Most deep-cycle applications have some sort of charging system already installed for battery charging (e.g. solar panels, inverter, golf car charger, alternator, etc.). However, there are still systems with deep-cycle batteries where an individual charger must be selected. The following will help in making a proper selection.

    There are many types of chargers available today. They are usually rated by their start rate, the rate in amperes that the charger will supply at the beginning of the charge cycle. When selecting a charger, the charge rate should be between 10% and 13% of the battery's 20-hour AH capacity. For example, a battery with a 20-hour capacity rating of 225 AH will use a charger rated between approximately 23 and 30 amps (for multiple battery charging use the AH rating of the entire bank). Chargers with lower ratings can be used but the charging time will be increased.
    I want to be careful here... In the US, many GEL batteries are limited to 5% rate of charge (C20 hour capacity). I would highly suggest you contact Enirgi to see what their optimum/maximum charging current is for this battery bank.

    But, some basic math for 5% and 10% rate of charge with solar using our rules of thumbs:
    • 2 strings * 1,618 Amp*Hours * 14.4 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 3,026 Watt array (5% rate of charge)
    • 2 strings * 1,618 Amp*Hours * 14.4 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 6,052 Watt array (10% rate of charge)
    That would be around 210 to 420 Amps @ 14.4 volts rate of charge--I do not see any wiring in your system (other than the cell interconnects) that could manage that high of current (if I am understanding your system correctly).

    At this point, I am very worried if you have enough charging current for these cells--Especially if this is a full time off grid daily use system.

    With the size of battery bank you have... A perfectly running Air Breeze 200 (watt) system would be supplying around (200 watts / 14.4 volts =) ~13.8 amps -- Or 1/15th to 1/30th of what I would suggest as a charging system for your present battery bank. Or, in other words, even if the Air Breeze was working properly, it is pretty much "useless" for this size system.

    Of course, I know nothing about your loads, energy needs, etc.... But I fear that you have a very nice/expensive battery bank and not near enough charging resources to do much more than "float" charge it at this time (1% to 2% rate of charge for a "float only" system in storage).

    This is a huge mistake that many folks make when trying to make a large/better off grid system... Many times they are recommended to greatly increase the size of their battery bank--When in reality, they should be increasing the size of their solar array/charging resources (and enlarging the battery bank--Only if needed) to better support their loads/needs.

    Can you tell me a bit more about your system and energy needs (watts * hours per day of AC inverter usage, Amp*Hours of battery usage at 12 volts, etc.)?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • gavgav Posts: 10Registered Users ✭✭
    Hi bill thanks for info we have 4  175 watt solar panels going through a 60 amp regulator which we are going to copy and double through another regulator. We run a 200 watt fridge and a 220 watt deep freezer (which we switch off for 6 hours at night).other than that we use two lights.We also are going to put another wind generator up we were looking at the 12 volt 1000 watt one.
  • gavgav Posts: 10Registered Users ✭✭
    We live Queensland Australia for knowledge of sun.
  • BB.BB. Posts: 28,090Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    OK, just looking at a rough design. The two coolers, say they run at 50% duty cycle and you have 20 watts of lights you run for 5 hours per night (note, this is close to a pure guess on my part--Just to show you what I/we normally do here):
    • (200+220)Watts * 0.50 duty cycle * 24 hours per day = 5,040 Watt*Hours per day refrigeration (your numbers may be high--Really energy efficient fridge/freezer could be closer to 1,000 to 1,500 WH per day each (2,000 to 3,000 WH per day).
    • 20 Watts of LED lighting * 5 hours per night = 100 WH per day
    • 5,040 WH cooling + 100 WH lighting = 5,140 WH per day
    You presently have a 12 volt system--But I would be suggesting a 24 volt system or even 48 volt system (keep charging/operating current lower at higher DC bus voltage--Power=V*I, 2x voltage, 1/2 current for same power).

    Energy usage is a highly personal set of choices--What may work for me, may not work for you--But, nominally I suggest 2 days of storag and 50% maximum discharge as an "optimum" off grid home battery bank...
    • 5,140 WH per day * 1/0.85 AC inverter eff * 1/12 volt battery bank * 2 days of storage * 1/0.50 max discharge = 2,016 AH @ 12 volt battery bank
    • 5,140 WH per day * 1/0.85 AC inverter eff * 1/48 volt battery bank * 2 days of storage * 1/0.50 max discharge = 504 AH @ 48 volt battery bank (recommended)
    Both battery banks will cost about the same (same amount of energy storage)... Just more batteries in series vs more in parallel or series/parallel.

    Normally, if your battery bank is >800 AH, it is better to go up to the next voltage.

    To run such a system, there are two calculations to make for the solar array. First is based on AH capacity (and voltage) of the battery bank--Looking for 5% to 13% rate of charge. 5% is good for non-winter, weekend/sunny weather usage. 10%+ is better for full time off grid... Based on My suggested battery bank sizing:
    • 2,016 AH * 14.4 volt battery bank charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 1,885 Watt array minimum
    • 2,016 AH * 14.4 volt battery bank charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 3,779 Watt array nominal
    • 2,016 AH * 14.4 volt battery bank charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.13 rate of charge = 4,901 Watt array "cost effective" maximum
    Note that your present battery bank is almost 2x larger than that I have suggested--So the solar array would be larger too:
    • 2 strings * 1,618 Amp*Hours * 14.4 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 6,052 Watt array (10% rate of charge)
    Then there is sizing the solar array based on the amount of sun per day you  receive. Fixed array and guessing at nearest large town to you:
    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

    Townsville
    Average Solar Insolation figures

    Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 71° angle from vertical:
    (For best year-round performance)

    JanFebMarAprMayJun
    6.33
     
    5.38
     
    5.68
     
    5.24
     
    5.02
     
    4.85
     
    JulAugSepOctNovDec
    5.34
     
    5.86
     
    6.54
     
    6.48
     
    6.20
     
    6.76
     
    Looks like lots of sun for your area:. Pick the lowest production month (use a bit of genset for bad weather):
    • 5,140 WH per day * 1/0.52 end to end AC system eff * 1/4.85 hours of sun (June) = 2,038 Watt array for June "break even" month
    You have lots of sun, so a smaller than 10% array for full time off grid may be OK... Notice that at 10% rate of charge, looking at ~380 Amps of solar charging current... Need about 7x 60 amp charge controllers to meet my "nominal" charging recommendations for full time off grid.... If you built a 48 amp battery bank, you could get away with ~2x 60 charge controllers (60 amp charge controller manages 4x the wattage vs the same controller running on a 12 volt battery bank). The maximum "cost effective" MPPT charge controller with 77% derating:
    • 60 amp controller * 14.4 volt bank * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating = 1,122 Watt max array for 60 charge controller @ 12 volts
    • 60 amp controller * 57.6 volt bank * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating = 4,488 Watt max array for 60 Amp @ 48 volt bank
    I am not a fan of small wind turbines... Ideally they should be a minimum of 10 meters high. And the cost for a tower+foundation is typically pretty expensive. And the location needs to be miserably windy for a wind turbine to harvest "useful" amounts of energy. Wind turbines need to be mounted high off the ground to be in "clean" (laminar) air flow. If there is turbulence from buildings, trees, hills, etc.--There is not very much energy in turbulent air flow.

    For you, because you have such good "sun"--It would seem that a solar array is much less expensive and much more reliable than any small wind system would be. If you have a few days of "bad weather", a genset and some fuel would usually be a better solution than a wind turbine (in my humble opinion).

    Questions/clarifications/corrections to my guesses?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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