"Tesla Ready" and other 380 VDC Inverters

The first company to announce "Tesla Ready" 380 VDC Inverters in the works is PIKA Energy of Maine USA. Codenamed "URSA" is a planned 7.5 KWhr Grid-Tie Inverter with Islanding capabilities.
Interesting is "URSA" is also touted to be an "ALL-IN-ONE solution to harvest power from wind turbines, solar arrays and other sources of clean power."
I searched and so far I do not see any reputable manufacturers offering home-sized 380 VDC inverters....but I'm sure this new trend in sustainable power will be snowballing now that the REbus Microgrid technology and savings is REAL.
Anyone that has news on inverter technologies for the 380 VDC arena please post!

Cheers soon...Tom
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Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    I am not sure I would be ready to jump both feet into the home 380 VDC battery bus... It certainly is an interesting concept, and many switching power supplies can take 380 VDC direct without needing an AC inverter in the mix (base for a move to 380 VDC for use in data centers).

    However, I believe there are serious safety questions. MorningStar has a newish ground fault breaker system:

    http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/ground-fault-protection-device/

    That can help with making safer isolated (floating) DC power systems... But still not on the order of safety as a typical GFCI outlet (amps vs 10's of milliamps to protect against shock hazards).

    Also DC arc faults are worse than AC. Switches/breakers are larger for their DC version of equal rating/capabilities, etc... It can be done, but the risks are real and there will be some "learning" experiences ahead.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Sun-Wind-Keeper
    Sun-Wind-Keeper Registered Users Posts: 11
    Agreed on NEVER jumping in with both feet! I did start the first foot with the PIKA T701 wind generator and B801 multi-input 380 VDC charge controller....and they are working very well so far.
    I am reviewing the PIKA PV Link with REbus Microgrid voltage and thinking of testing it with an an old pv array that is still putting out good power after 15+ years.
    If money was not an issue, and more incentives were beneficial to me, I would consider the Tesla Battery as well as "URSA" as a replacemet backup for my propane Genny Dee Cee with 24 VDC output, which only gets used 2-3 times a year. I have plenty of wall space too...a major factor in making things work.
    Cheers soon...Tom
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Just reading all the bad things that can happen off the warning label on a Schneider high voltage solar charge controller or any grid inverter makes me happy not to store energy at that voltage. At least at night you are safe from it.
    Like storms at sea, they mostly happen at night......
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Graham Parkinson
    Graham Parkinson Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭✭
    News From Fronius About Their Tesla Compatible Symo Inverter (on Sun Wind Energy Site)
    05.05.2015


    pv_tesla_fronius_speicher.jpg?itok=8K34crk5 Tesla for the home: the battery storage system will strengthen own-consumption of solar power in Europe and integrates inverter technology from Fronius. (Photo: Tesla)



    The Tesla brand is more readily associated with mobility than with staying at home. However, the manufacturer is now bringing its battery technology to the market for stationary power storage. Together with the inverter manufacturer Fronius, the Californian company is going to be marketing the Tesla Home Battery in Germany and Europe starting in the fourth quarter of 2015.
    The move is a response by the partners to the growing interest in electricity storage systems that significantly improve the availability of solar power for own-consumption. The storage technology, which is already used in electric vehicles, will now be combined with inverter and smart meter technology from Fronius. The inverter that will be used is the Fronius Symo Hybrid, which also supports the Fronius Solar Battery already on the market. The Tesla Home Battery will also be suitable for installation on a wall.
    Division manager Martin Hackl at Fronius sees the collaboration as a step towards a fully renewable energy supply: "Tesla, a world leader in the field of electric mobility, is an ideal partner on our way towards being able to use solar power twenty-four hours a day." The two companies have already been working together for some time in the automotive business area: Tesla uses Fronius welding systems for manufacturing its S and X models.
    The combined storage solution from Fronius and Tesla will be available in the fourth quarter, but Tesla has announced that it will already begin selling stationary storage under the name "Tesla Energy" in the USA this summer. The Powerwall storage system is offered with storage capacities of 7 and 10 kWh and is designed for use with solar power and as a backup solution.
    Ralf Ossenbrink


    Offgrid in cloudy PNW

    MacGyver'ed museum collection of panels, castoff batteries and generators - ready for state of art system install .... parade of surviving and dead generators: H650, Ryobi 900, Briggs and Scrap Iron 2000, H2200, H3000, Kubota 3500, Kubota 4500, Onan 7500

  • MarkC
    MarkC Solar Expert Posts: 212 ✭✭✭
    BB. wrote: »
    I am not sure I would be ready to jump both feet into the home 380 VDC battery bus... It certainly is an interesting concept, and many switching power supplies can take 380 VDC direct without needing an AC inverter in the mix (base for a move to 380 VDC for use in data centers).
    -Bill

    Bill, correct me if wrong - somewhat out of my background (Chem E), but the 10 and 20 KVA APC Smart UPSs use two 192 volt battery pack (systems) that are quote " +/-192 V (split battery referenced to neutral)". Is this the data center reference you have made? From my experience, these battery pack designs (SURT 6000 as an example) are very safe to work with and easily handled by personnel that are not particularly versed in high DC voltage requirements. Of course, the downside is these battery systems are based on relatively inexpensive, small (5 to 6 AH) AH volt AGMs - not the best to base an "off-grid" system on! I'm waiting for someone to package a similar design based LiFePO4 technology with similar safety features and a good BMS (Tesla Power wall or similar).

    Some of the data center UPSs are already making major improvements in power factor and efficiency that puts them competitive with the renewable equipment. The hold back is now the battery packs - Is Tesla is getting closer to a solution??
    3850 watts - 14 - 275SW SolarWorld Panels, 4000 TL-US SMA Sunny Boy Grid tied inverter.  2760 Watts - 8 - 345XL Solar World Panels, 3000 TL-US SMA Sunny Boy GT inverter.   3000 watts SMA/SPS power.  PV "switchable" to MidNite Classic 250ks based charging of Golf cart + spare battery array of 8 - 155 AH 12V Trojans with an  APC SMT3000 - 48 volt DC=>120 Volt AC inverter for emergency off-grid.   Also, "PriUPS" backup generator with APC SURT6000/SURT003  => 192 volt DC/240 volt split phase AC inverter.  
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    I don't know the details of the 380 VDC data systems--I believe they are floating DC systems.

    DC voltage and the possibility of arcs/arc faults worry me some (DC sustains arcs much better than AC). The issue of electrocution is probably greater with DC systems too (the DC itself, and that is is more difficult to make a GFI system that is so "easy" to do with AC systems).

    Also, things like AC Transformers provide both "galvanic" (electrical) isolation, and a natural current limiting element.

    These things missing from a high voltage/high current DC system worry me when done on the level of off grid home/DIY type system.

    There are certainly things that can be done to reduce some of these issues--But I am not sure that they all exist for home size systems and/or are cost effective.

    Of course there is a difference between 1,000 / 10,000 / 100,000 Watt*Hour per day systems... The solutions are different as the systems grow in size.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Mountain Don
    Mountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    IMO, there is a much larger market out there than just off grid. It is that market Tesla is addressing; storage of power so it can be used at some time during the day to remove stress from the grid or when the grid goes down.

    As for the high voltage, sure it poses a challenge for those who are already off grid. Off gridders have moved from 12 to 24 and 48 volts as they demand more power. IMO, the step to 380 volts is an evolution. We off gridders already know there are advantages to higher volt systems. Tesla has just skipped an intermediate step or two. It seems to be a radical step but that is Tesla.

    Anyhow, I'm going to enjoy watching how things shake out. Maybe I'll be a customer one day.
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    The TESLA power wall makes no sense as a grid tied battery system regardless if consumers/producers build to 110% of 100% last years annualized consumption.

    Purpose of grid tied solar install is to meet or beat the cost of grid parity so power is eventually free and cheaper to produce than utility provider. Power Wall defeats that whole purpose.

    Rolling black outs that were predominant in California (during the 1990's) were long before the era of solar, and 97% of those blackouts were man made events caused by Enron to control the cost of energy and make it volitile.

    Grid tied solar systems would lose 3.5% harvest efficiency annualized compared to, non power wall/battery back up systems if charged regularly. Now if people build according to the principals, and cpuc rules. The power wall serves a useless purpose.

    Elon Musk is trying to reinvent the wheel for share holders, because of this battery plant that is in Nevada, and investors want to know where their investments are going and how their investments will grow.

    All of you will come to find out. This whole power wall thing is Elon Musk grasping at straws to investors because fact is he doesn't really need the battery plant, and still to this day hasn't sold a Tesla car under $60,000 new.

    Elon Musk doesn't want to draw attention to his stock plummeting over the notion of how much the battery plant costs, and how much money Tesla is really losing over the course of 10 years to develope their own batteries. It's all hot air, and power wall is a diversion for share holders, if any of you know anything about building solar, on or off grid.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe you are right or maybe having a stressful day? This is not rocket science just a forum.
    The TESLA power wall makes no sense as a grid tied battery system regardless if consumers/producers build to 110% of 100% last years annualized consumption.

    Purpose of grid tied solar install is to meet or beat the cost of grid parity so power is eventually free and cheaper to produce than utility provider. Power Wall defeats that whole purpose.

    Rolling black outs that were predominant in California (during the 1990's) were long before the era of solar, and 97% of those blackouts were man made events caused by Enron to control the cost of energy and make it volitile.

    Grid tied solar systems would lose 3.5% harvest efficiency annualized compared to, non power wall/battery back up systems if charged regularly. Now if people build according to the principals, and cpuc rules. The power wall serves a useless purpose.

    Elon Musk is trying to reinvent the wheel for share holders, because of this battery plant that is in Nevada, and investors want to know where their investments are going and how their investments will grow.

    All of you will come to find out. This whole power wall thing is Elon Musk grasping at straws to investors because fact is he doesn't really need the battery plant, and still to this day hasn't sold a Tesla car under $60,000 new.

    Elon Musk doesn't want to draw attention to his stock plummeting over the notion of how much the battery plant costs, and how much money Tesla is really losing over the course of 10 years to develope their own batteries. It's all hot air, and power wall is a diversion for share holders, if any of you know anything about building solar, on or off grid.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Tesla should have revealed what equipment mates to it and how.

    Promoters rarely ever never do that...:cry:
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    Tesla stock is doing great....from ~$186 to ~$240 in two months. If they have a two-way split I would buy some. On the specs. on the Power Wall..with 2 KW continuous output per battery unit, it would take 4 wall units to compare to the output of my my two stacked 3,524's. It's still just a piece of a puzzle. Morningstar Ground Fault Breaker for 600vdc and Square D 600 volt DC Disconnect fused or non fused is two more parts. 380 VDC Inverters for this battery may also need to be stackable. Tesla should have revealed what equipment mates to it and how.



    Tesla stock will do fine until BMW, Nissan/Renault, and Volvo bring Tesla to its knees with their much safer, smarter, and efficient lithium battery technology, with 100% E cars.

    I mean lets face it. The petro car companies just needed the test ginny pig, "TESLA" in this market scenario to see if there was a market for the E car and its eggregous price tag. Much larger companies such as the ones mentioned can not only support the R&D that TESLA cannot, they can also mass produce on such a large scale that the cars themselves are discounted below a thresh hold that TESLA can not sell their cars at.

    For 2 years TESLA bragged about making a middle class consumer car for under $40,000. Still to this day no car. Just like the wall battery its all talk and hot air from TESLA, and in the end Elon Musk will walk out with all the money generated from the share holders while filing for bankruptcy. The trend is no different than the sales pitches that ENRON, and Solindra threw out years ago, with none of the administration going down for federal fraud.

    The talk of a 380V wall battery would be cool to down convert 1.5 amps for 240V grid application, but how is that any different from a 500~600V string inverter system for grid tied with no losses for battery charging?
    Does it relate to anything competitive to grid parity? NO
    Does it make sense for micro inverter systems that are surpassing string inverter grid tied applications....NO
    The battery has no place in the grid tied industry...NONE

    This is another shot in the dark for Elon Musk to compel more investors to join the stock to invest heavily into the battery plant that will not be successful as most of the chemistry for the lithium batteries they will be using will be coming from china with lack of quality control, and a very diluted product that wont meet warranty. Elon would of been better putting trust into well known battery manufacturers that have been in the business for years such as ROLLS, or Trojan, which are't trying to "reinvent the wheel" such as TESLA. Once the separation from Panasonics battery contract in early 2017 its end of the road for TESLA.

    Tesla should focus more on producing that $40,000 and under car price tag and quickly. The competitors are catching up, such as KIA, Toyota, and Nissan, all releasing E cars this year for under $35,000. If a car company drifts away from what the sole intent of the companies mantra is about, it actually means the company is running out of not only money, but fresh ideas, to deliver products at competitive pricing. Huge red flags.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    Just so I can explain the stupidity in the TESLA Wall Battery.

    Grid Tied String inverter conversion loss VS Grid Tied Micro Inverter Conversion loss- is a difference of 6.2% according to PV watts.
    This means the 380V battery requires a string of around 450v nameplate to meet the daily demand of the I-V curve.
    Then we have a lithium battery charge loss, its marginal compared to lead acid (SLD) but there is still a loss of 3.5%
    Then we have the down conversion process from 380V DC to a 240V AC platform another 3.5% loss
    Account for battery dod, soc, and temprature losses that's another 3.5%

    This means the TESLA Wall Battery grid tied system would operate at a phenomenal 69%, when most string inverter grid tied systems operate around 79.8%, DC optimizer string inverter systems operate at 85%, and micro inverter systems operate at 86.5%.

    Serious waste of money for grid tied, and never a return on the investment, however it would have some potential for off grid users that require high load demands to have a 380v inverter run parrallel to a 48v inverter.
  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    Don't let some one tell you this is new.
    I have seen inverters that run off 700VDC and handle over 300Kw and they have been around for at least 20 years.
    I am thinking its a modified/repurposed off the shelf variable frequency drive put in a computer tower that says tesla.
    Do I sound impressed?

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    The trend is no different than the sales pitches that ENRON, and Solindra threw out years ago, with none of the administration going down for federal fraud.
    Sound like stuff I always go on about. You must be my good twin.
    The talk of a 380V wall battery would be cool to down convert 1.5 amps for 240V grid application, but how is that any different from a 500~600V string inverter system for grid tied with no losses for battery charging?
    Does it relate to anything competitive to grid parity? NO
    Does it make sense for micro inverter systems that are surpassing string inverter grid tied applications....NO
    The battery has no place in the grid tied industry...NONE

    Agreed.
    When there is absolutely no advantage to reinventing the wheel why do people insist on it?
    Seems like one would pay a ton of money for this funky 100% proprietary gridtie/offgrid system, a job better done by existing tech, because its been built and refined over the years to do only this job specifically.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    oil pan 4 wrote: »
    Agreed.
    When there is absolutely no advantage to reinventing the wheel why do people insist on it?
    Seems like one would pay a ton of money for this funky 100% proprietary gridtie/offgrid system, a job better done by existing tech, because its been built and refined over the years to do only this job specifically.

    The people that are on grid that absolutely need back up power solutions (incase of rolling black out, or low winter insolation due to solar array size) that need to generate let's say over 5kWh, typically go with natural gas generation. It's cheap, it's easy and is inline with grid parity because the cost of natural gas converted to BTU/kWh is a rate of roughly $.065 kW. That's cheaper than utility tier 1, and in comparison to project cost is 1/3 the cost of a lithium battery.

    The only way tesla can market such a system is for isolated grid infrastructures such as Hawaii, Japan, and most islands that aren't centralized to Macro Grid infrastructure. However this type of micro grid makes up less than 2% of the worlds utility demand.
  • JoshK
    JoshK Solar Expert Posts: 232 ✭✭
    It's ironic that a forum with people that believe in the viability of hacking vehicle batteries onto their house are so against one company that seeks to improve your options. 6 and 12 volt batteries were never designed to be used to power homes. So maybe your faith would be better placed in Tesla, instead of wishing companies that have failed to innovate for you would hurry up and take the a good idea from Tesla so you don't have to change brands.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    JoshK wrote: »
    It's ironic that a forum with people that believe in the viability of hacking vehicle batteries onto their house are so against one company that seeks to improve your options. 6 and 12 volt batteries were never designed to be used to power homes. So maybe your faith would be better placed in Tesla, instead of wishing companies that have failed to innovate for you would hurry up and take the a good idea from Tesla so you don't have to change brands.

    You missed the point entirely.
    This isn't about being green. There is nothing green to batteries when it comes to dead battery waste. Do you know what happens to oceanic life, plant life, because batteries cannot be properly disposed of no matter how hard the EPA cracks down on bi product emissions waste?

    On a level of bi product waste, not necessarily carbon emissions, batteries pollute the soil and water supplies at higher toxic levels, than what natural gas (which is mostly hydrogen) pollutes as a carbon emission.

    A battery is a battery, there is nothing special to TESLA's lithium battery technology, no different than panasonics, etc.

    Not to mention we are all the investors in a highly volatile technology, lithium technology is not refined, life expectancy, performance, are all what ifs when it comes to lithiums, and people are only compelled to lithiums due to it's low density weight, high discharge voltage rate.

    The costs are not economically viable for grid parity, and anyone that invests into an unknown technology as a consumer is a fool, I would rather stick to the 12v
    Batteries, which aren't quite the cost of grid parity we would like to see, but it is a lot closer to parity than unknown lithium technology.
  • Mountain Don
    Mountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    If we all sat back and only used the tried and true, the familiar, we'd be using candles and oil lamps.......... The wonderful thing about our free world is folks are free to try and make new ideas work, or use old things in new ways, etc. etc. I'm not jumping on the Tesla bandwagon myself right now, but I do encourage free thought, innovation of any kind be it new products or simply new ways of using products. If anyone does not like the Tesla idea, don't buy it. Simple.

    Question the establishment, not the innovator.
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • JoshK
    JoshK Solar Expert Posts: 232 ✭✭
    lithium technology is not refined

    Lithium batteries were under development for 68 years before being sold for the first time in 1970. That's 45 years on the market and counting. If your requirements are technology needs to be older than lead-acid we are stuck with tech from the year 1859 and prior.
    And as for toxicity, you are just more comfortable with lead-acid. That even sounds terrible when you say lead-acid. One little Powerwall is 7.5kwh for 20 years. That's the same as throwing away 60 huge GC-2 batteries over the same 20 year span. That's many gallons of acid and many pounds of lead. We need to break our comfort zone and accept certain technological advances, such as lithium batteries.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    JoshK wrote: »

    Lithium batteries were under development for 68 years before being sold for the first time in 1970. That's 45 years on the market and counting. If your requirements are technology needs to be older than lead-acid we are stuck with tech from the year 1859 and prior.

    O.K so out of 68 years of development engineers still haven't figured out how to control thermal runaway. It isn't a well engineered or safe technology, and most importantly isn't that reliable because the manufacturing techniques are so expensive, that every manufacturer tries to cut a corner to reduce costs, which inevetably alters the mortality rate of the product.

    If the BMS system of a lithium fails we are talking battery fires and explosions. Not the norm that lead acid reacts too without the use of a BMS.
    JoshK wrote: »
    One little Powerwall is 7.5kwh for 20 years.
    Can we get proof of this? Never seen a lithium last that long in my lifetime, infact the average lithium battery lasts about as long as a standard AGM. Only difference between the 2 is that lithiums can except a much more tolerable DOD without raising internal resistance and reducing voltage discharge, or in effect its memory to retain voltage over time. Life expectancy though, 4 years tops.
  • JoshK
    JoshK Solar Expert Posts: 232 ✭✭
    still haven't figured out how to control thermal runaway

    Tesla uses liquid cooled cells to do this in all their batteries. If liquid cooling can keep an explosion-powered engine cool, it sure can keep a battery cool.
    and most importantly isn't that reliable because the manufacturing techniques are so expensive, that every manufacturer tries to cut a corner to reduce costs, which inevetably alters the mortality rate of the product.
    This is where the consumer comes in. The more that are sold, the less they cost per battery. And the Powerwall costs $3000 and replaces 60 lead-acid batteries of $5071 over a 20 year span. So it seems the wait is over. Did you know the average person could not afford a car when they first came out? Acceptance leads to mass production then yields cheap and perfected products.

    As for the 20 year warranty, I bet it's life can be estimated very accurately since lithium batteries have been around so long. If there was credible evidence this was a lie, investors would not be driving stock prices so high.
  • froggersix
    froggersix Solar Expert Posts: 35
    the voltage is the problem because ther's no inverters that will work with it yet and its hard to handle high dc so when they get the other stuff ready it will all be locked in and expensive.
    if they made 48 volt batteries they would have an instant big market and could sell more right from the start. so its rich mans toy and not very usable now.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    There are people that buy "cutting edge" appliances... From cell phones to flat screen TVs. $2,000 flat screen and 2 lbs cell phones ($3,995 to buy the Motorola DynaTAC 8000X in 1984) to what we have today.

    The problem with power systems (from my humble point of view), is there are limited areas where "miniaturization" is really possible and useful for power electronics. There is not much that has advanced over the years if you need kWatt's of power.. The same FETs, the same heat sinks, inductors/transformers/etc. over the last decades. Most of the cost reductions have been in manufacturing (labor) efficiencies.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • JoshK
    JoshK Solar Expert Posts: 232 ✭✭
    froggersix wrote: »
    the voltage is the problem because ther's no inverters that will work with it yet and its hard to handle high dc so when they get the other stuff ready it will all be locked in and expensive.
    if they made 48 volt batteries they would have an instant big market and could sell more right from the start. so its rich mans toy and not very usable now.

    The OP mentions the PIKA URSA will work, and that's just the beginning. It's not hard to handle high DC, it's just not common, but it can and should be. They aren't trying to lock you in, in fact I hear they are focusing on cars again, and there is no mention of a Tesla inverter. "If you build it, they will come" :) Just give the electrical engineers a year to go from concept to warrantied inverters for the market. If consumers start buying them in masses, competition will drive the profits near zero and the consumer will get a cheap, perfect product.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    JoshK wrote: »

    Tesla uses liquid cooled cells to do this in all their batteries. If liquid cooling can keep an explosion-powered engine cool, it sure can keep a battery cool.


    This is where the consumer comes in. The more that are sold, the less they cost per battery. And the Powerwall costs $3000 and replaces 60 lead-acid batteries of $5071 over a 20 year span. So it seems the wait is over. Did you know the average person could not afford a car when they first came out? Acceptance leads to mass production then yields cheap and perfected products.

    As for the 20 year warranty, I bet it's life can be estimated very accurately since lithium batteries have been around so long. If there was credible evidence this was a lie, investors would not be driving stock prices so high.

    I guess those are more of Elon Musks fabrications and stories. If I want a whopper I am better off going to burger king.

    Suspended fluid around a lithium battery does absolutely nothing against thermal run away. NOTHING.

    Thermal runaway happens when a plate becomes fractured or expanded, and the chemical composition between the plates becomes hot, some say the initial reaction is 1/4 the temperature of the sun within 1 micron in size to start this reaction.

    Fluid around the battery is no different than the ram air systems used on Toyota prius NiMh battery systems. The purpose is to cool the battery for maximum discharge, and to retain SOC. That's it and thats all it can do, fluids and ram air are not going to stop thermal runaway which is deep within the core of the battery.

    Please do your home work and stop reading the company releases used to fend off the media, at the end of the day its all propaganda.

    My biggest problem with this thread is that its more of an advertisement for TESLA, and PIKA, with products that are not even tangible and on the market. I will believe it when I can see it, touch it, and still tell you what I am saying now.... Over priced garbage.
  • froggersix
    froggersix Solar Expert Posts: 35
    JoshK wrote: »

    "If you build it, they will come" :)

    You mean like the segway or the edsel?
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    I heard this CBC.CA Quirks and Quarks program about lithium battery testing, observed to the MICRO LEVEL... very informative http://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/quirks-quarks-for-may-9-2015-1.3066421/blowing-up-batteries-for-science-1.3066519

    I would say it should be a MUST LISTEN to all in this discussiion
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    And another vi of thermal runaway in a Li ion battery by the London Univ. group...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • JoshK
    JoshK Solar Expert Posts: 232 ✭✭
    Thermal runaway means that resistance in the battery creates heat, heat creates more resistance, more resistance creates more heat... etc. So cooling solves that.
    Damaged cells is another thing entirely. A damaged plane can crash and kill, but that doesn't stop aviation. Piping colorless ordor-less gas into our homes then trusting our furnace to ignite it safely is dangerous too. The furnace is like the BMS you dis-trust. Driving a car kills TENS OF THOUSANDS of people each year, but you have nothing against cars, correct??
    I doubt I will change your mind. But I like what Tesla is doing. And I'm definitely not alone.
    As a final note, I have an excellent history of recognizing successful tech vs hype. And most is hype.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    No fluid known to man as of yet stops a thermal reaction that begins on the micro level at 1000*C. It's no different than ARC welding 2 similar metals. Once copper, and other metals reach the "melting" point the reaction accelerates, as disclosed in the CBC radio Westbranch just gave us. You can surround any metal around a fluid base, most fluids begin to become an evaporative emission at 280*F. An evaporative emission becomes a gas which increases pressure if it is enclosed.

    There is no stopping thermal runaway if it is an internalized electrochemical reaction. NOTHING

    TESLA at the moment uses one of the highest discharge, lowest safety batteries on the market, which are known for thermal runaway if the limitations of it's discharge rate exceed levels generating more heat, which explains the fluid used for cooling to cool down the battery on an external level, not internal.