100% SOC not entirely true?

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  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    I'd do a EQ and at least get to a place that becomes your constant ( 1.280 ) and work from there. It only makes sense if you start at 80% and you use the same settings that you'd return to 80%, unless you take a big swing get the starting point higher because of the low amperage at the end, at some point the time runs out with solar. It's a good chance you have some sulfate that was building up from when the batteries were new and the plates were not 100% formed.

    Like I posted, my Surrettes will only go up about .005 a hour in EQ @ 62v. They start out with high amps, but will drop quickly to 6-7 amps, so it takes awhile to make any headway. In your case, if yours are the same it'll take some time. Now if they jump up quickly, then thats stratification.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    PS - spoke to outback and the charge parameters met settings were what was causing it to jump from 93% to 100% in a minute. However, that still doesn't explain the fact that I cannot get to 1.280. I'll start and EQ now and see what happens. (however I did an EQ about a week ago).
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    jcheil wrote: »
    PS - spoke to outback and the charge parameters met settings were what was causing it to jump from 93% to 100% in a minute. However, that still doesn't explain the fact that I cannot get to 1.280. I'll start and EQ now and see what happens. (however I did an EQ about a week ago).
    You can, but your going to have to change the Voltage and or Time to get there. The next question is it something you want to do everyday and what does that do to the life of your batteries. Based on your graph, you look good, but since it's somewhat off maybe it's not reliable.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    update:
    EQ (set at 61.2v), started around 6pm and got the following readings so far:
    6:04, 58.8a, 61.2v (SG at 1.255 and 1.260 on test cells)
    6:15, 19.5a, 61.6v
    6:30, 11.8a, 61.7v
    7:30, 7.8a, 61.6v -- SG up to 1.270 on test cells
    still going...we'll see what happens
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    The eq ended at 9:00 and I didn't realize it until now, 10:40pm so I looked at my graph and right before the eq ended I had these values:
    9:00, 6.8a, 61.6V

    I took a SG of the test cells (a minute ago) and they were SG 1.275(ish). Now it HAS been out of eq and floating (generator still running) for the past hour and a half but perhaps that was good to give the batteries a rest and settle out a bit without any load on them.

    I just started a 2hr EQ again. I prolly won't be awake to check the SG in 2 hours, but since the generator will be running all night anyways that should allow a good 8 hours for the batteries to be "rested" and settle out. I'll get a SG in the am and see what the additional 2hr EQ did to them.

    So after I post that info in the am, the big question will be, what does all this mean :)
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 2,933 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    Hi Jay,

    Believe that you are a member of the Outback Forum, and you may have seen this and other Threads there, but just in case:
    http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7448&sid=ffd00680deb46f26c1395edb382d02de

    I know nothing of the OB FNDC, other than that it seems expensive for what it does and seems to not do.

    Good Luck, Vic
    jcheil wrote: »
    Yeah I am kinda of starting to think that.
    I turned off the feature of the FNDC to be able to terminate charge based on SOC about a week ago. That was killing me. Especially with the weird thing I saw again today (see below).

    Now I am strictly using time. I DID have an end amps at one point, but even set as low as 3 amps, I would still not get to 1.280 when it hit 3 amps (I think the best I got was 1.265). Another strange thing was -- look at today 12/1/2014, at 2:08pm it JUMPED from 93% soc to 100% in ONE minute. That's just not possible! And now at 5:29pm it has been at 100% SOC for several hours AND been in absorb at 60.1 (temp corrected) volts for 3.5 hours but I just checked the SG and it was only at 1.255 - 1.260.

    I just can't imagine what is wrong and why I can't seem to get them up to where they need to be.
    I have a surplus of solar which even on days like today that were rather overcast which should make up for it.
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    ok, I stayed up way too late, but the 2nd EQ finished a few minutes ago and right before it terminated, this was my readings:

    12:43AM, 61.7v, 6.2a -- test cells SG are now all at 1.280(ish) (perhaps a tad higher)

    The whole 2 hours of the EQ, the amps stayed within 6.6a to 6.2a and the voltage was 61.6v or 61.2v steady.
    So, now, what does this mean?

    Note: Going to let the generator run all night just letting it float so the batteries can rest a bit without any load on them.
    I'll do full SG readings of the entire bank in the am.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    Morning update.

    Ok, did a full SG and almost every cell is at 1.285 or higher.
    However I do have three batteries that are outside that range and they are 1.270,1.265,1.270 another is 1.280,1.270,1.280 and the last is 1.275,1.285,1.275

    Historically, those batteries have always been a little lower than the rest they seem to be following their "charging pattern" but I am having concerns that something may be wrong with them.

    Below is my record of SG's. The ones in question are #1, #6 and #9



    Date
    B#1 LR
    B#2 LR
    B#3 LR
    B#4 LR
    B#5 LF
    B#6 LF
    B#7 LF
    B#8 LF
    B#9 RR
    B#10 RR
    B#11 RR
    B#12 RR
    B#13 RF
    B#14 RF
    B#15 RF
    B#16 RF


    9/25/2014
    1.280
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285


    8:00pm
    1.280
    1.295
    1.290
    1.290
    1.295
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.290
    1.290


    EQ
    1.280
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.295
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.280
    1.285
    1.285


    10/15/2014
    1.285
    1.300
    1.295
    1.295
    1.295
    1.295
    1.295
    1.290
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285


    EQ
    1.285
    1.300
    1.295
    1.295
    1.300
    1.290
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.290
    1.290
    1.290


    7:15pm
    1.285
    1.295
    1.295
    1.290
    1.300
    1.290
    1.295
    1.290
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285


    11/19/2014
    1.260
    1.280
    1.285
    1.280
    1.280
    1.265
    1.280
    1.280
    1.280
    1.280
    1.270
    1.270
    1.275
    1.275
    1.260
    1.275


    CHG
    1.255
    1.290
    1.285
    1.280
    1.290
    1.270
    1.270
    1.280
    1.250
    1.280
    1.275
    1.275
    1.270
    1.280
    1.275
    1.280


    4:45pm
    1.270
    1.280
    1.285
    1.270
    1.285
    1.270
    1.285
    1.280
    1.265
    1.285
    1.275
    1.275
    1.270
    1.280
    1.280
    1.270


    11/19/2014
    1.270




    1.275




    1.285
    1.280
    1.280
    1.285
    1.275
    1.280


    EQ
    1.265




    1.280
    1.280

    1.265

    1.285
    1.280
    1.275

    1.280



    5:45pm
    1.280


    1.275

    1.280
    1.280

    1.280

    1.280
    1.280
    1.280


    1.280


    11/19/2014
    1.280
    1.295
    1.295
    1.290
    1.295
    1.285
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.290


    EQ
    1.280
    1.300
    1.295
    1.290
    1.300
    1.290
    1.290
    1.290
    1.280
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.290
    1.295


    9:05pm
    1.285
    1.290
    1.295
    1.290
    1.300
    1.290
    1.295
    1.290
    1.285
    1.295
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.295
    1.295
    1.290


    12/2/2014
    1.270
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.295
    1.275
    1.285
    1.290
    1.280
    1.290
    1.280
    1.285
    1.285
    1.290
    1.285
    1.285


    EQ Last Nt
    1.265
    1.295
    1.290
    1.285
    1.280
    1.285
    1.280
    1.290
    1.270
    1.290
    1.280
    1.285
    1.285
    1.295
    1.290
    1.295


    9:00am
    1.270
    1.290
    1.290
    1.285
    1.295
    1.275
    1.290
    1.290
    1.280
    1.290
    1.280
    1.280
    1.285
    1.290
    1.295
    1.280



    And I am basically going to give up on the FNDC SOC thing. I'll use it as a rough gauge but I am glad I am not depending on it for AGS (like others are) and have to deal with it's buggy logic (although I would REALLY like to implement AGS someday soon).

    So the real question now goes back to why I can't seem to get them up to 1.280 each day when I have plenty of charging power and time.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    Vic wrote: »
    Hi Jay,

    Believe that you are a member of the Outback Forum, and you may have seen this and other Threads there, but just in case:
    http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7448&sid=ffd00680deb46f26c1395edb382d02de

    I know nothing of the OB FNDC, other than that it seems expensive for what it does and seems to not do.

    Good Luck, Vic

    Yeah I remember reading those a while back. And I just read them again, and it does seem like it is a rather buggy product.
    But I am going to ignore the FNDC for a while and just focus on how to get me where I need to be using the other parameters (time/voltage).
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    You have 16 batteries, are batteries #'s 1 & 9 on the Positive end of a string ?? One option is to break them out and work on them by themselves. There are some here that will tell you it makes no difference in a string where a battery is located, I find it does. It's usually the end battery on the positive and a middle of the string battery. To prove it you can shuffle them around.

    So, now you know that 100% is attainable ( 1.280 ). Now you need to pick out the SG level you want to return to every normal day. By raising the charge voltage .5 +/- will raise the SG's in bulk and the time in absorb will finish the charge. The higher voltage will force the amps to remain higher / longer and the SG's will respond. The first thing I'd do is to go through and recalibrate everything so you know if you have to fudge anything to get the end result you want. Check the SG level at the Bulk / Absorb transition, so you know how far you have to go in absorb to reach your goal SG level. Generally my absorbs are returning .15 - .20 to the ending SG level. Once you identify your data points it gets much easier to adjust the Voltage and Absorb time to attain them consistently.

    I bought to FNdc for only one thing Ending Amps, I still believe it can work, but getting BCF set correctly has been a challenge to get everything else to work.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    I have verified that all the calibrations are correct for every device. Everything is pretty much dead on reading the same voltages.

    My batteries are configured as follows (battery #'s correspond to my above chart):

    BANK 1 BANK 2
    1 2 3 4- -9 10 11 12
    BUSBARS
    5 6 7 8+ +13 14 15 16

    Attachment not found.

    So #1 is in the middle of string #1 and #9 is on the negative end of string #2.
    (Note: Ignore the little LED meters at the bottom they were not really connected at the time I took the picture)

    It's not practical for me to try to get those two batteries OUT and work on them individually especially since they are in 2 different banks. I suppose if I got some help I could move them so that they are next to each other in the same bank and then if I had to work on them as a pair (12v) I could disconnect that string and then isolate those 2 batteries and put a 12v charger on them. hmmm that is gonna be some work :)

    Wondering, could you attach a 6V charger (assuming one existed that would reach EQ voltages) to a single battery while it is still connected in the string to give it some "extra"? Would that work or cause issues?
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    Generally my absorbs are returning .15 - .20 to the ending SG level.

    Just for clarification, are you are saying when you END BULK, your SG's would be at X and then your ABSORB will add an additional .15 to .20 to X when the absorb finishes?
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,163 admin
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    I would suggest you do not try for 1.280 SG every day... It is very hard on the battery bank (use lots of water, driving Oxygen to the positive plate grid/corrosion, plate erosion), and will drive you nuts.

    Just try for >90% a couple of times per week. And do an equalization only when the batteries are ~0.015 to 0.030 or more apart from high to low SG readings (and EQ once a month if you like).

    Once you hit winter (or in your case, when the marine layer/summer thunderstorms hit), your hours/amount of sun will be reduced.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    BB. wrote: »
    I would suggest you do not try for 1.280 SG every day... It is very hard on the battery bank (use lots of water, driving Oxygen to the positive plate grid/corrosion, plate erosion), and will drive you nuts.

    Just try for >90% a couple of times per week. And do an equalization only when the batteries are ~0.015 to 0.030 or more apart from high to low SG readings (and EQ once a month if you like).

    Once you hit winter (or in your case, when the marine layer/summer thunderstorms hit), your hours/amount of sun will be reduced.

    -Bill

    You're right, it's just freaking me out too much.
    From now on I am going to try to plan for 90%-ish each day.
    I set a 30day auto eq just for maintenance.

    I am continuing the EQ now and at 12:45pm those low cells are now at:
    1.275 1.280 1.285
    1.270 1.285 1.280
    1.275 1.285 1.285

    So I think I am going to let it continue until that first one gets to 1.280 then go from there.
    All the other cells have pretty much topped out at 1.285-1.290 and have not changed anything noticeable since earlier this AM.
    But I am thinking my absorb voltage might need to go higher than the 59.6 that I have it set up as now.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    jcheil wrote: »
    Just for clarification, are you are saying when you END BULK, your SG's would be at X and then your ABSORB will add an additional .15 to .20 to X when the absorb finishes?
    Exactly, but I am only shooting for around 1.250. If i am going into absorb at 1.220 - 1.230 as the amps begin to taper I am good. You have to remember that the higher your bulk voltage the longer it will take to push the bank voltage to that level and you'll enter absorb with higher SG's.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    I have to point out that this battery bank configuration and associated problems is why they make the large capacity (albeit more expensive per Amp hour) 2 Volt cells.

    http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/batteries/crdecyinba1/repose/2voltbatteries/repoba2vo750.html

    Twenty-four of them: one battery string and half as many cells to check. If one goes bad you can remove it and operate your 48 Volt system as a 46 Volt system.

    Also the Trojan batteries have higher Voltage requirements than are suitable for RE systems in my opinion. But you're stuck with what you've got.

    SG difference of 0.010 per cell is nothing to worry about. I would not crank up the Absorb Voltage at this point, but rather cycle them for a month and see what happens. If the SG is consistently low after that, do a corrective EQ to raise it.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?

    Thanks everyone. I very much appreciate the comments and suggestions.

    Last update. Stopped the eq at 4:45pm.
    At that point the eq was showing 62.5v and 9.1a (steady)

    That one troubled battery is finally at 1.285, 1.285, 1.290 and all of the others are hanging between 1.285 and 1.290 (and c couple 1.295).
    So at least I now have a "starting" point and a "baseline".

    I still think there is an issue with battery#1. Is is also not using nearly ANY water compared to the others which are all about even in consumption.
    If it is still off next month I think I am going to call Trojan on that one.

    And just curious: Wondering, could you attach a 6V charger (assuming one existed that would reach EQ voltages) to a single battery while it is still connected in the string to give it some "extra"? Would that work or cause issues?
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 2,933 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    jcheil wrote: »
    Thanks everyone. I very much appreciate the comments and suggestions.

    And just curious: Wondering, could you attach a 6V charger (assuming one existed that would reach EQ voltages) to a single battery while it is still connected in the string to give it some "extra"? Would that work or cause issues?


    YES, Jay, you can do that ... have done that here, running the external charger from the battery bank that is having one cell charged from that bank. Just make certain that there is NO connection between the green wire Safety Ground and the output of the external charger -- that is, the charger's output MUST be floating, without connection to its chassis or its output.

    Some will say that this is a bit dicey. So if you try this, be careful.

    My external charger is just a Variac(R) - transformer - FWB - Capacitor bank - Ammeter - circuit breaker to output. There is no voltage or current regulator, but for larger banks, the change in voltage/current is slow (as is the change in the temperature of the cell/battery being charged), and easily managed manually.

    FWIW, YMMV, and not good for the average person to try. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    Vic wrote: »
    Just make certain that there is NO connection between the green wire Safety Ground and the output of the external charger -- that is, the charger's output MUST be floating, without connection to its chassis or its output.

    So basically if the extrenal stand-alone charger has a 3-prong ac plug could you use one of those 3-prong to 2-prong AC adapters and didn't connect the small ground wire on the 2-prong side, that would be considered isolated correct?

    Not that I am planning on doing it, I was just curious. But given the past 24 hours (and the past 2.5months) with that one "lagging" battery, it might just need some extra "umph" for another month or so like some have said on this thread OR it is truly defective and Trojan will need to replace it. Time will tell.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    I have to point out that this battery bank configuration and associated problems is why they make the large capacity (albeit more expensive per Amp hour) 2 Volt cells.

    http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/batteries/crdecyinba1/repose/2voltbatteries/repoba2vo750.html

    I am in complete agreement with you there, however it is a HUGE HUGE HUGE price difference.
    The 2V ones would be $16,300+ shipping. I paid $5,300 including on-site delivery for the L16RE-B's.
    Yeah 1/2 the cells is a nice feature but not at 3X the price IMO. Now, if I win the lottery, I'll buy them and someone here will be getting my existing bank for free :)
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 2,933 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    jcheil wrote: »
    So basically if the extrenal stand-alone charger has a 3-prong ac plug could you use one of those 3-prong to 2-prong AC adapters and didn't connect the small ground wire on the 2-prong side, that would be considered isolated correct?

    Am not certain that my description was very well written. Yes, it is important that there is no connection between the safety ground, and the output of the external charger. AND it would be important that any connection from the Negative charger output and any metal chassis be removed (IMO). This will keep metal chassis of the charger from becoming at the potential where the negative charger lead happens to be connected.

    Six volt chargers are not common, especially one that can do a real EQ. A home-brewed charger could do what you want. Using a "Variac" in front of a step-down transformer plus the other parts noted previously, would allow the adjustment of voltage output, and therefore the charge current, as well.

    FWIW. It is good to pay attention to batteries, especially when they and the system are new. Good Luck.
    73 (believe that this is in order - think you are a Ham). Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • SurfpathSurfpath Solar Expert Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    jcheil wrote: »
    I am in complete agreement with you there, however it is a HUGE HUGE HUGE price difference.
    The 2V ones would be $16,300+ shipping. I paid $5,300 including on-site delivery for the L16RE-B's.
    Yeah 1/2 the cells is a nice feature but not at 3X the price IMO. Now, if I win the lottery, I'll buy them and someone here will be getting my existing bank for free :)

    Hi jcheil,
    After reading your posts again I think your 2 month old RE-B's are fine. You may have been very slightly undercharging them for a while (based on the FNDC and not having a low enough end amps perhaps?), but obviously now they are charging and reaching the correct SG limits. Two years ago I had a very similar Outback/REB experience (see thread here). The solution: drop end amps lower and raise max Absorb time, then fine tune Absorb voltage and Absorb time as the seasons change.

    Out of curiosity, did you perform a commissioning charge? I didn't see mention of it in your posts. The latter reduces 'battery user-stress' a little b/c it provides a base reference for SG. I'm curious about your typical battery water usage per month. Once your charging becomes regular let us know will you? I also track this.
    Happy charging!
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    Vic wrote: »
    73 (believe that this is in order - think you are a Ham). Vic

    :) Not for many many years, but yes, thank you - 73 back at you!

    The towers you see in my pictures are actually for my microwave Internet.
    https://www.facebook.com/somewhatcrookedcamp

    I was lucky enough to be within range of one of the point to point microwave providers.
    Now I'm getting unlimited 10-15mb down and 5-10mb up for $75 a month!
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    Surfpath wrote: »
    Hi jcheil,
    After reading your posts again I think your 2 month old RE-B's are fine. You may have been very slightly undercharging them for a while (based on the FNDC and not having a low enough end amps perhaps?), but obviously now they are charging and reaching the correct SG limits. Two years ago I had a very similar Outback/REB experience (see thread here). The solution: drop end amps lower and raise max Absorb time, then fine tune Absorb voltage and Absorb time as the seasons change.

    Out of curiosity, did you perform a commissioning charge? I didn't see mention of it in your posts. The latter reduces 'battery user-stress' a little b/c it provides a base reference for SG. I'm curious about your typical battery water usage per month. Once your charging becomes regular let us know will you? I also track this.
    Happy charging!

    Yes I did a commissioning EQ the first day they were installed and got the SG's all up over 1.280 and then went from there.
    And I think you are right about the slight undercharging due to me mistakenly relying on the FNDC and allowing it to terminate charging based on SOC.
    Maybe I am out of the woods now. Time will tell, but I am still a tad concerned about that #1 battery.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • K4KMGK4KMG Solar Expert Posts: 50 ✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    jcheil wrote: »
    :)
    The towers you see in my pictures are actually for my microwave Internet.
    I was lucky enough to be within range of one of the point to point microwave providers.
    Now I'm getting unlimited 10-15mb down and 5-10mb up for $75 a month!

    I'm at River Ranch. Any chance I could do this?
  • SurfpathSurfpath Solar Expert Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    jcheil wrote: »
    Yes I did a commissioning EQ the first day they were installed and got the SG's all up over 1.280 and then went from there.
    And I think you are right about the slight undercharging due to me mistakenly relying on the FNDC and allowing it to terminate charging based on SOC.
    Maybe I am out of the woods now. Time will tell, but I am still a tad concerned about that #1 battery.

    Good, well done on the commissioning.

    You know another thing about Outback battery charging that frustrated the heck out of me initially was related to "minimum bank voltage".

    I initially used voltage readings from the FM80 controller (ie the main screen that says voltage Min and Max for each day of charging) because it said "Min voltage," also because this readout conveniently stores 128 days of data.

    But after 8 months of battery voltage readouts that seemed off, especially compared to SG, I realized the FM80's min voltage reading was absolutely wrong, by as much as 0.6 or 0.7 a volt LOWER. I believe the Mate's reading is more accurate (downside is that it only stores one day of data, and it takes several more keystrokes to get to). A few other outback users have reported this voltage discrepancy as well.

    In the end I was relieved to see that my batteries were not really discharging to 55/60% SOC daily, and it was more like 70/75%. ;);)
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    K4KMG wrote: »
    I'm at River Ranch. Any chance I could do this?

    Nah, unfortunately not, I am at the EDGE of their service as it is. Their tower is over by Coco, FL.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 100% SOC not entirely true?
    Surfpath wrote: »
    Good, well done on the commissioning.

    You know another thing about Outback battery charging that frustrated the heck out of me initially was related to "minimum bank voltage".

    I initially used voltage readings from the FM80 controller (ie the main screen that says voltage Min and Max for each day of charging) because it said "Min voltage," also because this readout conveniently stores 128 days of data.

    But after 8 months of battery voltage readouts that seemed off, especially compared to SG, I realized the FM80's min voltage reading was absolutely wrong, by as much as 0.6 or 0.7 a volt LOWER. I believe the Mate's reading is more accurate (downside is that it only stores one day of data, and it takes several more keystrokes to get to). A few other outback users have reported this voltage discrepancy as well.

    In the end I was relieved to see that my batteries were not really discharging to 55/60% SOC daily, and it was more like 70/75%. ;);)

    Yeah I noticed that too, the FM80 seems to have a much higher polling frequency for the MIN voltage. sometimes I see a REAL low voltage recorded on there that is not recorded anywhere else. Might be those split second surges from a high watt appliance coming on and pulling the voltage down.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
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