DG Net Metering

Tom B

I am a utility engineer in the northeastern US and we have seen a significant increase in the number of net metered pv applications in the last five years (due to subsidies, decreasing installation costs, etc...). Since the penetration of PV on our system is still relatively low <1% we are still encouraging (subsidizing) installations on our system. I believe the trend will continue as long as subsidies remain and installation costs continue to decrease. Since Arizona is ahead of the curve in adoption of PV I had a few questions for the forum.

Are the utilities in Arizona still supportive of PV installations or have the subsidies been reduced or eliminated due to the high penetration of PV?

Is the rate of new installations still on the rise or did it plateau?

Is net metering permitted by the local utility? if so, has there been significant pushback by the utility to continue the practice?

Thank you for your comments

Cariboocoot

Re: DG Net Metering

Welcome to the forum Tom.

This thread may answer some of your questions: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?20522-Arizona-to-tax-sunshine

BB.

Re: DG Net Metering

We are starting to see push back from the utilities in many regions--Particularly those that have heavy subsidies were we are getting more installations (even up in Ontario Canada).

So far, the present "best method" to equalize the business risk for the utility and other customers is to break the bill into two charges... A flat rate connection charge and a per kWH charge.

The flat rate charge for my area (Northern California Metro area) is around $4.50 per month with relatively high per kWH costs (0.09 to upwards of $0.50 per kWH for higher usages on summer afternoons).

Other folks/articles here seem to have reported connection charges in the range of $40 to $96 or so... And then sub $0.10 per kWH pricing--Or even sub $0.05 payments for solar generated power (excess or otherwise).

Besides hurting GT Solar installations/customers, it is going to hurt conservation efforts too...

I don't know what the best solution is--But what is happening now probably cannot go on for much longer in some regions.

We have a few threads here about APS and changes the utility wants to make to their adjust their GT Solar rate of return. So far, the Arizona PUC has not given the utility very much:

Help Stop APS from taxing solar
APS Stealing electric (unhappy customer over way commission of system was performed)

-Bill

bill von novak

Re: DG Net Metering

Tom B wrote: »

Are the utilities in Arizona still supportive of PV installations or have the subsidies been reduced or eliminated due to the high penetration of PV?

APS has attempted to levy a pretty high fee ($50 a month) on customers who use solar. They were bargained down to $5. However, when I spoke to an APS representative a few weeks ago he said they were still very much in favor of solar.

Overall Arizona residents get a 30% tax credit (federal) a 25% of gross cost tax credit (Arizona) and various specific subsidies/incentives depending on which utility they are a part of.

Is net metering permitted by the local utility?

Yes. No limits on percentage of total load, up to 125% of a customer's load, and compensation by avoided cost (not retail cost.)

if so, has there been significant pushback by the utility to continue the practice?

APS seems to be pushing back.

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

I design build systems 20% larger than they should be because of 1% deprecation per year over 20 year span. It's pretty much been the norm for most of my clients, if the client has the real estate for it.

The cost of solar is accelerating because now the CSI funding is fully depleted, and consumers have less than a year and a half before the fed tax credits expire.

The fear factor is whats causing major acceleration. I'm in the process of signing on average 3 clients per month to get in on "bulk" stock of PV to reduce the costs.

In the greater bay area PG&E just raised rates 8%.

Cariboocoot

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

I design build systems 20% larger than they should be because of 1% deprecation per year over 20 year span. It's pretty much been the norm for most of my clients, if the client has the real estate for it.

You should know that this degradation doesn't actually happen. It was once thought to and expected, but it turns out the panel deterioration over twenty years isn't even measurable. Hurrah for better panels!

And of course you can't install a system that's larger than the service will allow.

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

Cariboocoot wrote: »

You should know that this degradation doesn't actually happen. It was once thought to and expected, but it turns out the panel deterioration over twenty years isn't even measurable. Hurrah for better panels!

And of course you can't install a system that's larger than the service will allow.

When we bought the canadian solar's apparently they are fine tuned to lose under .07% per year, and anything greater is defective to warranty. Sunpowers are probably the best at under .04%.

I know what you mean about service panels. Most homes should just have a 200amp service if going solar there is alot of limitations on 100amp services.

I've concluded most designs exceeding 9.5kWh start to run into problems on the 200amp services, but that seems alot for grid power. A family of 5 with an electric car if using energy star appliances shouldn't need a system over 8kWh. There is also home restructuring where I come in, do an assesment and have the client remove electrical appliances like electric water heaters, and cloths dreyers and convert those appliances to natural gas to compensate for the room needed in the service panel and to make sure it doesn't exceed the 120% rule, also conservation is most important.

Cariboocoot

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

When we bought the canadian solar's apparently they are fine tuned to lose under .07% per year, and anything greater is defective to warranty. Sunpowers are probably the best at under .04%.

I know what you mean about service panels. Most homes should just have a 200amp service if going solar there is alot of limitations on 100amp services.

I've concluded most designs exceeding 9.5kWh start to run into problems on the 200amp services, but that seems alot for grid power. A family of 5 with an electric car if using energy star appliances shouldn't need a system over 8kWh. There is also home restructuring where I come in, do an assesment and have the client remove electrical appliances like electric water heaters, and cloths dreyers and convert those appliances to natural gas to compensate for the room needed in the service panel and to make sure it doesn't exceed the 120% rule, also conservation is most important.

Since the NEC only allows 20% over the maximum based on the bus bar rating (although inspectors tend to read main breaker) the most you can put on a 200 Amp service is 40 Amps, or 9.6 kW. Removing loads from the service doesn't change this, although it may give you the needed connection space. Beyond that you have to check the bus bar ratings (good luck) or put in a smaller main (not always easy) or change the service (that ups the price a lot) or use a line-side tap (not always welcome everywhere nor cheap).

solar_dave

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

When we bought the canadian solar's apparently they are fine tuned to lose under .07% per year, and anything greater is defective to warranty. Sunpowers are probably the best at under .04%.

I know what you mean about service panels. Most homes should just have a 200amp service if going solar there is alot of limitations on 100amp services.

I've concluded most designs exceeding 9.5kWh start to run into problems on the 200amp services, but that seems alot for grid power. A family of 5 with an electric car if using energy star appliances shouldn't need a system over 8kWh. There is also home restructuring where I come in, do an assesment and have the client remove electrical appliances like electric water heaters, and cloths dreyers and convert those appliances to natural gas to compensate for the room needed in the service panel and to make sure it doesn't exceed the 120% rule, also conservation is most important.

As always it depends on the situation. We are a family of 2, have 2 electric cars to charge, a pair of 3 ton Trane 17+ seer heat pump units on the main house and a mini split on the office/workshop building, a VFD pump on the pool, CFL/LED lighting. We have energy star appliances and the only one I would like to convert yet is the electric dryer. Out main cooking is done with nat gas. Our 12.5 Kw system is slightly under the ideal amount of solar and because of net metering TOU restrictions we still buy off peak power every month.

Yes a 200 amp panel is a challenge to add 12.5 KW of solar and in our case required a service upgrade to a 400 amp transformer line and meter split in to a pair of 200 amp breaker panels, one derate to 175 amps. Even with a 12.5Kw system we would have been challenged by the AHJ to derate a single 200 amp panel because of the load situation, but it turned out for the best because we needed to add the 125 sub-panel for the new building and the 60 amp sub-panel for the car chargers. Those are the only things on the second derated panel besides the solar.

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Since the NEC only allows 20% over the maximum based on the bus bar rating (although inspectors tend to read main breaker) the most you can put on a 200 Amp service is 40 Amps, or 9.6 kW. Removing loads from the service doesn't change this, although it may give you the needed connection space. Beyond that you have to check the bus bar ratings (good luck) or put in a smaller main (not always easy) or change the service (that ups the price a lot) or use a line-side tap (not always welcome everywhere nor cheap).

That's why I only go with the Eatons exterior mounted meter/distribution panels the bussing is rated for 224 amps for the (20 slot and 40 slot), eaton customer service can send you the spec on the bussing. Schnieder/square D not so lucky when it comes to getting that bussing info. I don't believe PG&E allows line side tap on residential under any circumstance, they do it for commercial and only if the producer carries insurance. What that amount is, I don't know the answer.

solar_dave

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

That's why I only go with the Eatons exterior mounted meter/distribution panels the bussing is rated for 224 amps for the (20 slot and 40 slot), eaton customer service can send you the spec on the bussing. Schnieder/square D not so lucky when it comes to getting that bussing info. I don't believe PG&E allows line side tap on residential under any circumstance, they do it for commercial and only if the producer carries insurance. What that amount is, I don't know the answer.

Same here in AZ and my AHJ, they disallowed a line side tap except on a commercial install. They may have softened that stance since I did mine but I doubt it, they tend to tighten and not loosen requirements. That is nice to know about the Eatons!

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

solar_dave wrote: »

That is nice to know about the Eatons!

Whats not nice about the eatons is that some PG&E jurisdictions have an issue with underground, over head exterior combo boxes. Thats how I went in a tizzy for the spec sheets. I had 5 jurisdictions that passed the box no problem, then I went to another jurisdiction and it took 7 days to meet approval.

The project coordinator told me to read over greenbook for what is or is not allowable with no reference to manufacturer types. I told the coordinator it looks like it passes in every way. Then he came back with the response, oh its overhead/underground that came into question.... Just seemed like I was selected at random for approval.

Cariboocoot

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

That's why I only go with the Eatons exterior mounted meter/distribution panels the bussing is rated for 224 amps for the (20 slot and 40 slot), eaton customer service can send you the spec on the bussing. Schnieder/square D not so lucky when it comes to getting that bussing info. I don't believe PG&E allows line side tap on residential under any circumstance, they do it for commercial and only if the producer carries insurance. What that amount is, I don't know the answer.

Crazy, isn't it? Not the same rules from one county to the next or even between power companies! Funny, 'cause the physics involved is the same everywhere!

I'd like to see all houses built "solar ready" with meter boxes designed for line-side feed up to the total capacity of the service, all disconnects and metering needs met in one box. That would sure make new installs easier.

Of course retrofits will always be difficult. If I were to put in GT here I'd need to change out and relocated the service because it no longer meets code. Not likely I'm going to do that, not even once they've push the rates all the way up to fifteen cents per kW hour.:p

Tom B

Re: DG Net Metering

Thank you for the feedback!

jaggedben

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

... I don't believe PG&E allows line side tap on residential under any circumstance, they do it for commercial and only if the producer carries insurance.

None of that is true.

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

jaggedben wrote: »

None of that is true.

Well how are you going to prove that it isn't? I don't mind that you boldly called me a liar, but whatever different strokes for different folks.

For residential it would require a switch gear. In most cases it hasn't been allowable in the jurisdictions I have worked in using common meter distribution panels under 200amp 240V.

Common 100amp or 200amp 240V service distribution panels, do not allow for the contacts, PG&E hasn't approved a method for common 240V 200amp/100amp distribution panels.

Now I did a line side tap 4 mega watts worth in hanford, client had insurance, and a switch gear. I've done mega watts worth in residential sectors 208V for school districts, but those aren't considered a residence or home, and still had switch gear and insurance for the term of the NEM.

For truth in the content, line side taps in switch gear's remove the certified UL listing as it is considered "tampering" a UL certified part. In order to do line side tap on the back end of the gear bussing it is a drill and tap method, (which de-lists the certification). A UL inspector by request of PG&E or client or both parties, which in most cases for school districts its a requirement along with insurance. The last time I called out a UL inspector for 3.5 meg of power costs $16,000 to have the inspector come out to approve the gear. So yeah its costly and the client should be making a enough whole sale power to offset that cost alone.

Other circumstances that cause problems with line side tap are the age of the gear, specs available for that gear, if even the specs still exist, not to mention the cabinet portion that is specifically for PG&E only.

The bureaucracy to a "true" line side tap is because of cabinet space, what PG&E defines as impeding into their jurisdiction, PG&E can feel that impeding into their cabinet which under no circumstance is anyone allowed to line side tap in PG&E's portion of cabinet. Reminds me of a project I did, that called out for line side tap, and infact it was in PG&E's cabinet portion because there was no other place to line side tap. I verified with the engineer even before the installation that we were in PG&E's cabinet, and was told to do so any way. End result PG&E inspector failed inspection, and we suffered $10,000, liquidated damages under a performance contract for the CSI/PBI incentives. Had to recalculate the system specs and run some new conductors to another service gear.

For residential 240V 100 and 200 amp residential service distribution panels would require approval from PG&E which in most cases I have been told no. Either because there isn't a raceway established with the meter/distribution, its in PG7E's designated cabinet, or the box isn't calculated for radius bend, and as always will de-list UL cert to the service panel. Line sides can be done, but to swap out for a gear or service that can be designed for line side exceeds the ROI. In most cases Line side isn't practical for systems under 25kWh because of the extra precautions, means and methods, bureaucratic B.S involved for that type of installation. Installing breakers is always cheaper and is the lowest form of insurance you need.

So the real truth is how much is the client willing to spend on a system under 25kWh for a line side tap. Truth is its unrealistic for the cost.

solarix

Re: DG Net Metering

As an Arizona installer, its been a roller coaster ride since last June. Sales went 10 fold as people stampeded to beat the APS end of rebates deadline (which kept slipping in time) Just now working off the backlog. Give us a deadline anytime - I now say. This year however, the public perception has gone the other way thinking solar is not so economic even though costs continue to decrease and the new "solar tax" is only about $5/month. From what I read, the Utilities are learning that they need to seriously figure out a new business plan as charging by the kwh is going to mean decreasing revenues. The great majority of US demand growth is being met by recent renewable generation and in Germany and Hawaii it has allready reached a degree of saturation. (oops - maybe shouldn't have built those fossil fuel resources I guess) Here in Arizona renewables are at about 4% of utility generation.
While it is true that the renewable technologies still rely on base load generation and perhaps can be said to have an unfair advantage with net-metering but Utilities have had a much larger concession from the public as well by not having to pay the costs of coal-fired pollution and nuclear cleanup. Not to mention the unproven affects on climate change. The developed world is coming around to the realization that we need to have a cleaner method of energy production even if it costs more and net-metering is a simple incentive that has become a cornerstone of encouraging renewables. From what I read, the installation rate for solar is going to go ballistic in the coming years. Get ready!

solar_dave

Re: DG Net Metering

solarix wrote: »

As an Arizona installer, its been a roller coaster ride since last June. Sales went 10 fold as people stampeded to beat the APS end of rebates deadline (which kept slipping in time) Just now working off the backlog. Give us a deadline anytime - I now say. This year however, the public perception has gone the other way thinking solar is not so economic even though costs continue to decrease and the new "solar tax" is only about $5/month. From what I read, the Utilities are learning that they need to seriously figure out a new business plan as charging by the kwh is going to mean decreasing revenues. The great majority of US demand growth is being met by recent renewable generation and in Germany and Hawaii it has allready reached a degree of saturation. (oops - maybe shouldn't have built those fossil fuel resources I guess) Here in Arizona renewables are at about 4% of utility generation.
While it is true that the renewable technologies still rely on base load generation and perhaps can be said to have an unfair advantage with net-metering but Utilities have had a much larger concession from the public as well by not having to pay the costs of coal-fired pollution and nuclear cleanup. Not to mention the unproven affects on climate change. The developed world is coming around to the realization that we need to have a cleaner method of energy production even if it costs more and net-metering is a simple incentive that has become a cornerstone of encouraging renewables. From what I read, the installation rate for solar is going to go ballistic in the coming years. Get ready!

+1 on the charge by kWh. Solar has broken that model and I suspect that the utilities might look for alternatives to the connect charges for all consumers to correct that issue. While I don't want to see higher costs for solar users like myself, I do understand that using the utility as a "battery" should have some nominal cost involved. If they drive that Nominal cost to high then people will just leave the utility altogether.

Cariboocoot

Re: DG Net Metering

Let's keep it civil, guys.

And always remember any two people's experiences even in the same jurisdiction may be different. It only takes one extra-incompetent bureaucrat to give out wrong information and colour someone's opinion of the process.

As for the meter box being the power company's ... they ain't the ones that paid for any of mine. Nor the wires, come to that. Their contribution was the meter itself, and the lock on it.

Frankly I'm in favour of the line-side tap as being one of the easiest ways of connecting up as much solar as you can. Which is probably why so many utilities and government agencies are against it. :roll:

BB.

Re: DG Net Metering

Tom B.,

What are the thoughts at your utility and among your co-workers?

My personal thinking is by 10% penetration (if that ever happens), the utility billing/costs/profit model will be serious broken, and above 10%, the stability of the network will become an issue (because you have variable GT power sources regardless of load/network requirements).

And in some locations, if you get clusters of installations (like a particular housing track), the utility will have problems with local excess generation (voltage regulation problems, overall network frequency control, etc.).

I understand that the next generation of GT inverters in Germany will have (or have already) some sort of utility control (remote shut down, can throttle output, or something similar short of the utility dithering line frequency by +/- 1.0 Hz to "knock" GT inverter off line.

-Bill

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

A little off topic.
I just watched the Enron biography the other night and it was interesting to see that energy companies are no different in following the same format and formula that Enron used to forecast the cost of energy.
Only difference is energy companies are't cooking the books, so for their protection the wholesale distribution market was made to make producers feel like they are getting a little something back.
Energy companies follow the trend of a roll over credit or feed in tariff at discount through NEM. What isn't working about this is that like an AT&T phone service I can roll my minutes over, they are the same minutes (at the same value) without a tiered structure that says it will cost you more at X time of day. Every time a new Senate Bill comes out for contract terms of NEM it seems like the renewable energy distributor is getting screwed more on the wholesale rate, not by lowering the sale value of that wholesale energy, but what the energy companies do is make that producer no different than the neighbor that doesn't have solar and keep them in an "inflatted" tier structure so that the energy company is literally increasing their profit by 30% to 40%, just by taking energy at whole sale and selling it to your neighbor at a tiered cost.

I was looking at the new Re-Mat structure which allowed utility companies in california to set new NEM contracts with inflated pricing and new tier structures. A producer that has solar and owns an electric car (under the experimental car tiering) will be paying close to near the same cost of what it takes to buy a gallon of gas at the pump (in a tier 3 structure), and the wholesale rate is that discount, so when you look at the big picture electricity which is abundantly cheaper than gasoline is now being sold at the same cost of that energy, or its specific demand.

Its really sickening to see how obvious and apparent it is that utility companies are doing anything to maximize profits.

The solar trend in california started because of Enron back in 2001. Enron was calling up the utility companies to shut down the power plants without the FEDS acknowledgment, so they could import power at higher profit margins. Enron created the whole California black out fad that added that fear factor for people to go solar. There are still people out there un educated that companies like Enron or the utility companies all act in the same way, "what can I do to inflate the cost of energy when it is apparent that it is in an abundance".

A kWh should be a kWh unfortunately the energy companies will never see eye to eye on that level.

Cariboocoot

Re: DG Net Metering

Its really sickening to see how obvious and apparent it is that utility companies are ding anything to maximize profits.

That is the nature of business in a capitalist market.
It's why we have legislation to (supposedly) keep them from doing anything harmful.
Although we're all still waiting for that to actually work.

bill von novak

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

Its really sickening to see how obvious and apparent it is that utility companies are doing anything to maximize profits.

Every company in the US does this. Even solar installation companies.

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

bill von novak wrote: »

Every company in the US does this. Even solar installation companies.

Its not the installation company, its the finance company.
Finance companies subcontract for the installer to get the job done, the finance company is the one that makes record profits, more than the utility company after year 5.

30% tax credit
2%~10% CSI generated from state funding (now extinguished in California)
20% savings to client, and monthly payment to PPA contract financing.

Within the first year term, finance companies generate 50% of the initial start up cost.

So for 15 of the 20 year agreement its all profit for the finance company. Little guys like me just recieve a check for install, thats about it, its not profiting or capitalizing on the installers end.
I also refuse to work under PPA contracts, they have nasty language in there that does some serious damage to contractors for failure to perform. I work direct with my clients, they purchase material, they own it, I just install, the way it should be.

bill von novak

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

Its not the installation company, its the finance company.

It's everyone. Companies that do not watch costs and maximize profits go out of business; they are out-competed by the companies who do a better job maximizing profits.

This is not because companies are evil, it's a characteristic of capitalism. (Wal-Mart doesn't sell cheap Chinese products because the owners don't like American companies - they sell Chinese products because their customers like low prices.)

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

bill von novak wrote: »

It's everyone. Companies that do not watch costs and maximize profits go out of business; they are out-competed by the companies who do a better job maximizing profits.

This is not because companies are evil, it's a characteristic of capitalism. (Wal-Mart doesn't sell cheap Chinese products because the owners don't like American companies - they sell Chinese products because their customers like low prices.)

I don't find that to be entirely fact of the matter. I install solar on shingle slate rooftops for .99 cents per watt labor only. My competitors do the same labor installation for $1.50 or more per watt, financed agreements have hidden install costs almost reaching $1.80 per watt.
my business model is to build a system at grid parity for consumers. I don't profit from it, I break even month to month to pay the bills. My company grows on word of mouth to consumers at that price point. I'm able to expand from the low cost that it becomes more accelerated, which puts me at a point to hire employees and keep the economy going. For me my company model is to grow organically using ethical fundamentals, the consumers will take care of me based on the low cost and open relationship which is quite the opposite of corporate Americas stance on selling energy.

my other big problem is the governments lack of control in the energy world, it should have more regulation so a kWh is a kWh at fair equal value and the government as a business should tax renewable property as they are a business to make money as well, it would be far less depriciative than the way utility buys energy from whole sale distributors @ 55% savings for that energy than re distribute for greater profit. The whole economic system is corrupted, that doesn't make it capitalism, it makes it corruption.

Cariboocoot

Re: DG Net Metering

Guys; this is really wandering away from the OP's inquiry.

Tom B

Re: DG Net Metering

Speaking for myself and other engineers in my group (familiar with DG)...

Most support the idea of distributed generation. But, as you mentioned, there will definitely be technical challenges as the percent of PV increases (both at the circuit and substation level). These technical challenges can be overcome but it will likely require more investment into the electric distribution system. The question is where will the funding come from for these improvements?

I believe utilities, regulatory commissions, and public officials need to work together to develop a new tariff structure that supports DG and provides for a reliable electric distribution system in the future.

Cariboocoot

Re: DG Net Metering

I know someone very closely involved in the industry who has for years asked the question "why don't these for-profit businesses invest money in upgrading infrastructure as it is obviously needed?". To date the only answer he has received is "because it cuts into the profits."

Personally I see no reason why the end-user should have to suddenly pony up even more money to finance the restructuring of the grid when utilities have made billions in profits from them over the years already, while ignoring the needs to make changes.

Allowing solar to the grid will ultimately force them to make needed changes and improvements, although the changes may be more lobbying against solar and the improvements may be to their profit margins via restructuring the billing. In fact we are already seeing that change with more money spent on having the connection than on the kW hours used. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

jaggedben

Re: DG Net Metering

SolarPowered wrote: »

Well how are you going to prove that it isn't? I don't mind that you boldly called me a liar, but whatever different strokes for different folks.

I suppose if I had pictures handy of the multiple installations I've worked on which were done with line-side taps, that's how I'd prove it to you. I don't have any handy, although we have one coming up that will probably be inspected in a couple weeks, so maybe I'll get some. If we have problems with PG&E, I'll eat crow.

BTW I'm talking about actual taps, not just breakers installed as service disconnecting means in existing panels. Of the latter I've done quite a few more. Never an issue with PG&E interconnection, although I've had to talk a few AHJs through it.

For residential it would require a switch gear. In most cases it hasn't been allowable in the jurisdictions I have worked in using common meter distribution panels under 200amp 240V.

If it's the AHJ who's disallowing something, that's not the same as PG&E disallowing it. I have yet to experience PG&E rejecting an interconnection application on technical grounds if there's a passed building permit from the AHJ.

Common 100amp or 200amp 240V service distribution panels, do not allow for the contacts, PG&E hasn't approved a method for common 240V 200amp/100amp distribution panels.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Now I did a line side tap 4 mega watts worth in hanford, ... ... line side taps in switch gear's remove the certified UL listing as it is considered "tampering" a UL certified part. ... A UL inspector by request of PG&E or client or both parties, which in most cases for school districts its a requirement along with insurance. ... Other circumstances that cause problems with line side tap are the age of the gear, ... not to mention the cabinet portion that is specifically for PG&E only.

[etc. etc]

Yes, you've certainly listed a number of genuine circumstances that make line-side taps difficult. I don't disagree with any of that. But none of that justifies your original statement ("I don't believe PG&E allows line side tap on residential under any circumstance.")

Indeed one of the earliest solar installations I worked on (not in any supervisory role) required a UL representative to field list the equipment, and the inspector made us jump through so many hoops that he eventually apologized to us for having asked us for things that were not required. This BTW, was a 3-phase 208 service, but technically it was residential. In any case, as far as I know, there was never a peep of objection to the whole thing from PG&E.

SolarPowered

Re: DG Net Metering

jaggedben wrote: »

BTW I'm talking about actual taps, not just breakers installed as service disconnecting means in existing panels. Of the latter I've done quite a few more. Never an issue with PG&E interconnection, although I've had to talk a few AHJs through it.

I am not thoroughly entertained by your antics, or banter. You are not even close to my level of line side tap installations, nore do you know the firms I "have been" associated with.
So for every one else's enjoyment so we stay on topic, I have pics of some of my line side taps.