Midnight mounting

Joe94

Can a midnight classic be mounted sideways instead of upright? The manual says to mount it upright but I don't see a reason it can't be sideways other then it would make the display less convenient to read. Does anybody have experience mounting it in any other possition.

tons001

Re: Midnight mounting

The main reason I could think of is that the venting is all at the top. Putting it sideways would most likely restrict the airflow.

westbranch

Re: Midnight mounting

They can put out a lot of heat. FYI the E-panels have an off set so the E-panels and the Classic are about 1/2 inch away from the back wall for convective cooling.

mtdoc

Re: Midnight mounting

And don't forgett, if it's not upright some of the electrons might spill out..:p

vtmaps

Re: Midnight mounting

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

my TS-MPPT-60 runs relatively cool under load, and has/needs no fan, while by comparison, the MX-60 right beside it, has it's fan going, pumping out enough BTUs to heat the dog house

Are you saying the morningstar is cooler because it puts out less heat (and is therefore more efficient)?

Or are you saying the morningstar produces just as much heat, but with its big fins it radiates heat more efficiently and therefore runs cooler?

I vaguely recall a discussion somewhere about efficiency where boB or Ryan at Midnite pointed out that even if the classic was less efficient than some other controllers, in side-by-side tests it produced more power (because of better tracking) than those other controllers.

--vtMaps

NorthGuy

Re: Midnight mounting

vtmaps wrote: »

I vaguely recall a discussion somewhere about efficiency where boB or Ryan at Midnite pointed out that even if the classic was less efficient than some other controllers, in side-by-side tests it produced more power (because of better tracking) than those other controllers.

There's a PDF on MidNite website showing the results of these tests. I would say, at best, they're inconclusive.

Cariboocoot

Re: Midnight mounting

Guys; this was one of the problems that came up which contributed ultimately to someone going away forever.

The MidNite Classic 150 is an 80 Amp controller. The Morningstar is a 60 Amp controller. In order to compare the actual efficiency you need laboratory controlled conditions with equal power going in and out of both. Then you can determine which produces more heat at a given power level (by measuring at the MOSFETS) and is therefor more efficient at that power level. You could also measure the amount of heat at a fixed distance with the MOSFETS at the same temperature to see which does a better job of dissipating heat.

Keep in mind it is entirely allowable to run a component at a higher temperature in one design than in another so long as the temperature is within specifications for the component. As such one may choose a large heat sink and no fan over a smaller heat sink with a fan; both will work. But the no fan option will not be as efficient at dissipating heat (moving air of the fan increases the thermal difference and thus rate of heat transfer from component to heat sink to air). For the components given, this may be fine at 60 Amps but would not be suitable at 80 Amps. So the actual semiconductors may be the same, but the limitations of the cooling system restrict the maximum power.

In other words don't expect to get conclusive results from anecdotal circumstances.

NorthGuy

Re: Midnight mounting

Cariboocoot wrote: »

In order to compare the actual efficiency you need laboratory controlled conditions with equal power going in and out of both.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Without such comparison, any speculation that MidNite Classic is somehow capable of producing more energy than other controllers from the same array has absolutely no ground.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Midnight mounting

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Guys; this was one of the problems that came up which contributed ultimately to someone going away forever.

Point taken in a positive way.

Cariboocoot

Re: Midnight mounting

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Point taken in a positive way.

It isn't that he got banned, by the way.
But arguing with engineers is fruitless. I know 'cause I used to do it for a living.

NorthGuy

Re: Midnight mounting

Cariboocoot wrote: »

It isn't that he got banned, by the way.

Hm. As I remember, he was banned. I thought that this was over his posts on induction cooking. Now we know that this was because he was skeptical about MidNite Classic's performance.

Cariboocoot

Re: Midnight mounting

NorthGuy wrote: »

Hm. As I remember, he was banned. I thought that this was over his posts on induction cooking. Now we know that this was because he was skeptical about MidNite Classic's performance.

No. He was not.
Do not try to second-guess what happened. It isn't a matter for public discussion.

I mention the incident because it was a contributing factor. Not skepticism, but argumentative attitude based on testing one of each anecdotally as opposed to testing many of each under controlled conditions.

And let's all remember that when we are talking about these MPPT controllers they all have efficiency in the mid 90 percentile. One or two points difference can be found between two of the same model, never mind two different brands. If one company's unit was 97% (+/- 1%) efficient and another one's was 87% (+/- 1%) you'd have a case. As it is, all the high-end brands are pretty darn efficient.

BB.

Re: Midnight mounting

I should add that while a 97.5% efficient controller vs a 95% efficient controller is not big deal in the overall Solar Power production (you would never see the difference with normal DMM and battery monitors)--From an engineer's point of view, that is a big difference.

For the same XX amps of current, the 95% efficient will need to dissipate 2x the amount of power (as waste heat) vs the 97.5% efficient controller.

-Bill

Joe94

Re: Midnight mounting

What I've learned
1. Follow the instructions, that's what they are there for.
2. Turning it sideways will cause the electronics to fall out, possibly some overheating issues if you manage to keep the electronics intact.
3. Discussing unscientific performance and comparisons is a big no no.

But in all seriousness thanks for the responses. I had not considered that it would run too hot with it sideways. Getting information from those who use this stuff is invaluable. Thanks and I'm sure I'll have many more questions before I'm up and running.

Joe94

Re: Midnight mounting

Is there a minimum clearance when mounting the classic? The location I want to mount it will only give it 5 inches to the ceiling. I looked though the manual but didn't see anything about minimum clearances.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Midnight mounting

Joe94 wrote: »

Is there a minimum clearance when mounting the classic? The location I want to mount it will only give it 5 inches to the ceiling. I looked though the manual but didn't see anything about minimum clearances.

Aside from any other problems, IF they exist, one serious question - - - - do you plan on using a ladder to access the readout, adjustments, etc? Or do you have an unusually low ceiling?

BB.

Re: Midnight mounting

You need good air flow... Mounting near the ceiling can trap heat. Not good for electronics.

-Bill

Joe94

Re: Midnight mounting

I have three feet of space between my ceiling and roof that is directly below my roof mounted battery box. It would be an ideal location to mount my Controller Inverter and distribution box to limit the cable runs and isolate the noise from the fans from the living space. It does have good cross ventilation and vents directly to the outside. Wayne, I would have to remove a ceiling panel and use a ladder to get at it but to program and monitor the classic I use my laptop with the midnight app. I currently connect it with a cable but I'm going to connect it to my wifi router so I can monitor it wirelessly.

vtmaps

Re: Midnight mounting

Joe94 wrote: »

is directly below my roof mounted battery box

I always thought the solar array went on the roof and the batteries were in the basement...
How do you come to have a roof mounted battery bank?

--vtMaps

halfcrazy

Re: Midnight mounting

Well several things to address here:

1- I would not be scared to mount the Classic horizontally as long as the FET side (Side with the Turbo Fan on it) was up. Not actually on the ceiling but on the wall sideways.

2- As far as efficiency there are lots of thoughts and opinions. But in reality Hardware efficiency is a small portion of the big picture. When we started the Classic we did extensive testing against numerous controllers with 3rd party calibrated logging equipment and out finding was that the Classic and the Morningstar where to close to call on KWH's into the battery bank on a daily basis. They both where ahead of anything else tested by various amounts.

3- With the introduction of the Kid and some competitive products making some pretty stout claims we are going to set up a second round of calibrated testing here very soon.

4- And just a note on the Banned or not Banned. I understood it was a temporary ban and that has long since expired?

Ryan

Cariboocoot

Re: Midnight mounting

halfcrazy wrote: »

4- And just a note on the Banned or not Banned. I understood it was a temporary ban and that has long since expired?

Ryan

This is correct. However the user in question has chosen not to return of his own accord.