Low Power i86 Computer

NorthGuy

My 15-year old server consumes only 40W at peak (without display), so older computers were better if you don't need performance. However, I'm afraid it is nearing the end of its life. And I'm looking for a very-low-consumption computer.

I found a lot of ARM-based microcomputers with very low power consumption, but I would really prefer i86 based so that I wouldn't need to deal with re-compiling my old programs, the source code to which may have been lost.

Have anyone heard of i86 based low-performance and low-power microcomputers?

Slappy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

http://www.viaembedded.com/en/products/processors/productSeries.jsp?serialNo=23. Via still make makes x86 embedded processors start at the link then take it from their. But if I recall any time u change processors. Or motherboard u still have to recompile the software. Well I had to for using BSD. But that was years ago.

n4wff

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

At work, a few years ago, we had a thin client running Linux, similar to this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAXSPEED-MAX-TERM-8400-THIN-CLIENT-/380702819975?pt=US_Thin_Clients&hash=item58a3a80687
The power supply was an external 12v and the compact flash adapter was connected with a standard IDE cable. I am not sure of the wattage, but it had no cooling fan so it couldn't be much.

animatt

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

NorthGuy wrote: »

My 15-year old server consumes only 40W at peak (without display), so older computers were better if you don't need performance. However, I'm afraid it is nearing the end of its life. And I'm looking for a very-low-consumption computer.

I found a lot of ARM-based microcomputers with very low power consumption, but I would really prefer i86 based so that I wouldn't need to deal with re-compiling my old programs, the source code to which may have been lost.

Have anyone heard of i86 based low-performance and low-power microcomputers?

What do you need the server for? What kind of power consumption are you looking for? I would imagine you could get below 5w server(headless) but definately below 10w depends on what you have for a storage device. But what is it worth to go from say 10w to 5w power draw? Price range?

For 10 watt range get an older netbook and swap out media device if needed. This should be a fairly cheap way to do it.

matthew

RandomJoe

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

This is why I started using Mac Minis for my servers. The ones I have are Core2Duo (older models) with plenty of power for my modest needs and normally run around 15W. If they get fully loaded, they can rise substantially but I generally don't see more than 25-30W.

I tried to find other low-power x86 machines but most of the well-made ones were insanely expensive, even compared to the Mini. Hopefully someone sells a more reasonable one now, but Apple still sells the Minis. (I run Linux on mine.)

You could also use a small laptop. I have an Asus netbook that performs decently, think it's an Atom processor. Only 10-12W!

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

Thank you, everyone.

My server is used for lots of different things, starting from answering phone and providing communications to my gizmos to lots of very diverse stuff. I always had it, so when I wanted something to be done, I simply wrote a program and run it on the server. I probably could re-write all this, but buying a server that will run it all seems easier to me. It now runs Linux 2.4 minumalist install, so it doesn't really uses much resources. It is run on one of the first Pentium processors. Even the worst computer now will be more powerful than it is.

I wouldn't want to go with laptop, as I anticipate problems with Linux drivers. I have an old Dell laptop which I bought in 1999. It consumes more than my current server. My present laptop is 20W, which is Ok, but not great.

Searching for "fanless computer" I found some really low power ones, but they're over $1000. The VIA computers seem to be relatively low power, except all the configurations that would need my needs are out of stock. Asked today in a local store "Memory Express" and the best they have is 28W. 1W of continuous power costs me about $3/year, so I wouldn't struggle to get 5W consumption, but 10-15W would be nice. I'll keep looking.

DavidOH

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

Take a look at "My Low Power PC" thread. You may find something in the links interesting.
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?10467-Low-Power-PC&p=76735#post76735


You may also like Fit PC : http://www.fit-pc.com/web/

My recent build.
Tested using about 31 watts. Micro PC AND the 21" monitor.
The PC alone uses about 17 watts. On standby (or OFF) uses about 3.
Motherboard is Intel Atom Dual-Core D525. - http://tinyurl.com/6m9g29s

I found the Samsung LED monitor on sale for $140 with FREE shipping. It uses about 18 watts !
The case is (IMO) the ONLY micro PC case: http://tinyurl.com/7ycfnp9
The picoPSU Power supply is in and this thins is totally silent.
I used an OCZ Solid State Drive. This should be enough for my needs.
As you can see the size is about 8.5 inches deep by 7.5 wide and 2.5 tall.

animatt

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

david OH beat me. forgive any repeated material.

Do you have any special hardware requirements? Maybe an rj-11 adapter to answer phone calls?

I would not automatically skip a netbook. Most have very good linux compatablity. If you need to stay with linux 2.4 then you have a point. but modern kernels have very good compatablity. Older netbooks may have both rj-11 and 45 adapters. I would think $100 used netbook could get you were you want.

I think most linux incompatiblies are with video drivers, and wifi drivers. Seems like both those things would not be too important to you.


but if really steering away from laptops something like this looks nice although I imagine it is much more than you need. with linux installed.

this seems to be without hard drive. going this route would allow you to install maybe a smaller ssd card.

this device is fanless which I REALLY like. with ssd no moving parts.

matthew

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

DavidOH wrote: »

You may also like Fit PC : http://www.fit-pc.com/web/.

Thank you.

FIT-PC looks promising. They list 7.5-9W consumption on FIT-PC2i SSD model, and the price seems reasonable.

If I choose them, I will have to hurry. They move to FIT-PC3, which has much more consumption.

DavidOH

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

You're welcome. The Fit PC is close to the specs of my build and about the same price: fit-PC2i 2GB/1.6GHz Diskless 1.6 GHz, 2GB RAM, WiFi

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

animatt wrote: »

Do you have any special hardware requirements? Maybe an rj-11 adapter to answer phone calls?

I would need a modem. However, most (all?) of the modems built in laptops seems to be so-called software modems, where all the processing is done by the main processor. Getting a linux driver may not be easy. I have two very good ISA modems, one istalled in my server, but I guess there's no computers with ISA any more. So, I will have to go with a COM port and external modem (I hope they still exist).

solar_dave

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

Maybe a USB modem would work for you OK like this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-56K-V-92-External-Dial-Up-Voice-Fax-Modem-Windows-7-Win7-32-64-Linux-/310762438782?pt=PCC_Modems&hash=item485ae2807e

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

Thank you Dave.

They claim to support Linux. The price is good too. I remember buying modems for $100-150.

techntrek

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

My first one was 300 baud. I was excited when I moved up to 1200.

stephendv

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

There are also the ALIX boards for < 5W of consumption and x86: http://www.pcengines.ch/alix.htm

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

stephendv wrote: »

There are also the ALIX boards for < 5W of consumption and x86: http://www.pcengines.ch/alix.htm

Thank you!

These look exactly what I need. Very little power consumption and no unneeded parts. And they are available in Canada for less than $200 for the assembled computer!

DavidOH

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

I agree with Solar_Dave. A USB modem may be you best bet. I bought this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825164005
Minimal power, and you can just unplug it when not needed. Reviews are saying it works with Linux, Slackware, Debian, Ubuntu, Mandriva ,and Puppy.

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

DavidOH wrote: »

I agree with Solar_Dave. A USB modem may be you best bet. I bought this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825164005
Minimal power, and you can just unplug it when not needed. Reviews are saying it works with Linux, Slackware, Debian, Ubuntu, Mandriva ,and Puppy.

Thank you David.

Clicked the link. Looking at the modem. $17. Then boom. A popup comes up - NewEgg has a Canadian site specially for Canadian customers, click here. I click. The page relaods. And, lo and behold! $25!!! Poor Canadian people ...

DavidOH

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

Ouch! Rosewill RNX-56USB Modem Shipping is $10.49 !!! FREE shipping in USA ! Double ouch !

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

While considering ALIX board, I thought that it might be not powerful enough for all my applications. After all, I have the big computer doing all the tasks. So I decided to see how much less powerful it is compared to my server.

Here it is:

Processor speed: My server - 167MHz; ALIX - 500MHz
Memory: My server - 64MB; ALIX - 256MB
Hard drive: My server - 30GB; ALIX - CF card. I'm still deciding between 16GB and 32GB.
Hard drive data transfer speed: My server - ATA 33 MB/s; ALIX - depends on CF card. 30 MB/s is reasonable.
Average power consumption: My server - 40W; ALIX - 5W

Looks like the smallest embedded computers today are more powerful that big computers were 15 years ago!

ggunn

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

NorthGuy wrote: »

While considering ALIX board, I thought that it might be not powerful enough for all my applications. After all, I have the big computer doing all the tasks. So I decided to see how much less powerful it is compared to my server.

Here it is:

Processor speed: My server - 167MHz; ALIX - 500MHz
Memory: My server - 64MB; ALIX - 256MB
Hard drive: My server - 30GB; ALIX - CF card. I'm still deciding between 16GB and 32GB.
Hard drive data transfer speed: My server - ATA 33 MB/s; ALIX - depends on CF card. 30 MB/s is reasonable.
Average power consumption: My server - 40W; ALIX - 5W

Looks like the smallest embedded computers today are more powerful that big computers were 15 years ago!

I remember when I got my first 1GB "pizza box" SCSI hard drive. It seemed so big I thought I would never fill it up.

The last two drives I bought were 2TB each and the combined cost was less than the 1GB drive.

animatt

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

If you have not made a purchase yet I would evaluate the benifits of going with a a fitpc or equivelant over the geode based boards. While they do use little amounts of power the geode chips are considerably older.

The geode chips designs are about 7 years old I think 130nm tech. There is alot of benifit from newer chip designs. Basically made from much smaller parts and are more efficient on performance per watt.

This would future proof the item a bit more. Although it maybe a moot point if only trying to replace current server.

matthew

techntrek

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

ggunn wrote: »

I remember when I got my first 1GB "pizza box" SCSI hard drive. It seemed so big I thought I would never fill it up.

My first in 1987 was 10 MB, using the very old MFM encoding. I don't even remember what the interface was. Believe it or not I never came close to filling it up even though I used it non-stop for about 3 years. Still have it in a box.

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

animatt wrote: »

If you have not made a purchase yet I would evaluate the benifits of going with a a fitpc or equivelant over the geode based boards. While they do use little amounts of power the geode chips are considerably older.

I haven't made the final decision yet. Someone sent me the link to a comparison between AMD Geode LX (used in ALIX) and Intel Atom (used in FIT-PC). I thought I would post it here:
geode vs intel chip comparision.

FIT-PCs are good choice. However, at this point I'm still leaning toward ALIX because it does have enough power for me, lower power consumtion and lower cost. What I like about ALIX is that I can get rid of keyboard and monitor and use RS232 console instead.

The bad thing is that they probably stop production very soon. CF cards and IDE drives give way to SATA SSD hard drives. If something breaks I will have to buy a new computer and re-do all the setups, which is a tedious job which takes days.

RandomJoe

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

Wandering a bit aside, do current Atom-based machines have energy-efficient chipsets now? What kind of total system power are they drawing?

It's been a while since I bought an Atom board, largely because of the inefficient chipsets Intel allowed the Atom processors to be paired with. The CPU itself was VERY efficient, just a small heat sink and no fan, but the supporting chipset was a blowtorch by comparison. I bought a "fanless" system once, idle power was 25W and I found it could run fanless for only 1/2 hour or so - after that the HDD temp (attached to the underside of the heat-sink chassis) got up to or over the maximum operating temp. Disappointing to say the least.

That's when I found the Mac Minis were idling at 12W and the Core2Duo in them kicked butt computationally compared to the Atom! Of course not fanless, though.

I haven't bought any more computers since then, so haven't kept up on all the finer details, hopefully Intel wised up and got something more efficient.

NorthGuy

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

RandomJoe wrote: »

It's been a while since I bought an Atom board, largely because of the inefficient chipsets Intel allowed the Atom processors to be paired with. The CPU itself was VERY efficient, just a small heat sink and no fan, but the supporting chipset was a blowtorch by comparison. I bought a "fanless" system once, idle power was 25W and I found it could run fanless for only 1/2 hour or so - after that the HDD temp (attached to the underside of the heat-sink chassis) got up to or over the maximum operating temp. Disappointing to say the least.

I looked at lots and lots of Atom based computers, and they all have consumption around 25-30W. I guess high-resolution videos add a lot. There are lots of fanless computers, but they're heavily heatsinked, so they're prepared to give away lots of heat. There are very few in 12-15W range. The lowest I've seen is FIT-PC, which is rated at 5-9W. However all models - HDD, SSD and diskless quote the same consumption number, so I suspect this number doesn't include the hard drive.

animatt

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

there are/were 2 or 3 main intel atom processors depending how you look at it.

Desktop ones were dual corie and used about 20w of power.

The single core version of the desktop were used in the netbooks orginally and they had half the power consumption.
They used the intel chipset 945. which used a bit of power. Not well suited to the low power consumption of the cpu.

The 3rd and more distanct was the Z verions. They have a different chipset which is MUCH morer efficient. it actually was not an itel design. It was an acquired chipset from one of intels purchases. For power saving the Z processor had a few features removed compared to the normal atom. I can not remember what features, but I remember them being more obscure. The graphics had video acceleration that worked ok in windows, but not so great in linux. I would imagine on a similiar scale to all the older VIA processors with their video acceleration. Not sure current state of video acceleration in linux but not a big deal.
The fitpc2 use the intel Z processors and thus the low system power usage.

Hard drives are big energy users. Certain SSD media COULD save a good bit of power.

Depending on what the server does some further power can be saved if everything is loaded to ram on bootup(ram disk). THen putting the media drive to sleep. Only waking very rarely to sync with the ramdisk.

Being this computer is going to be all fanless going with a spinning hard drive seems like not the best decision.

Just some thoughts.

matthew

mtdoc

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

FWIW my atom based HP110 netbook with SSD drive runs at about 11 watts while data logging. Cost me $100 used on ebay.

Those FIT PCs do look nice though...

animatt

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

the fitpc do look really nice/ professional.

Those ebay netbook deals are probably the cheapest way to something similiar. Some even have the Z processors and chipsets. Which would use less power than even your hp 110. Who cares if a screen is cracked if you will run it headless.

But northguy is from canada and shipping and tariffs are not like what they are in USA.

this post is added for those that might find it in the future.

the netbook/laptop I was talking about was the dell mini 12. I can not remember if there were others with the z processor.

ggunn

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

techntrek wrote: »

My first in 1987 was 10 MB, using the very old MFM encoding. I don't even remember what the interface was. Believe it or not I never came close to filling it up even though I used it non-stop for about 3 years. Still have it in a box.

My first computer, not counting the TRS-80 I had to get for a machine language course in college, was a Mac 512Ke with no storage apart from the floppy drive. I remember my first encounter with a hard drive, though, which was attached to the IBM 360 at LSU in 1968 or so. It was about the size of a chest freezer and its capacity was 64kB.

jcheil

Re: Low Power i86 Computer

ggunn wrote: »

My first computer, not counting the TRS-80 I had to get for a machine language course in college, was a Mac 512Ke with no storage apart from the floppy drive. I remember my first encounter with a hard drive, though, which was attached to the IBM 360 at LSU in 1968 or so. It was about the size of a chest freezer and its capacity was 64kB.

Mine was on a PDP-11 system in the the late 70's. Can't remember the storage capacity of it (all I cared about was that I could fit the Fortran version of "Dungeon" (Zork) on it But it was "removable" and it was front loading (revolutionary vs the top loading kind of that time) and was about the size of a garbage pail lid and about 3" thick at around 15 pounds. The patter itself was 1/4" thick.

"You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here."

Ah, the memories...