APS Stealing electric

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  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Mike you know the true up payment was reduced this year by the ACC at APS request from $0.0659 kWH to $0.0289 kWh on the EPR6 rate plan. What payment rate plan are you running on?

    EPR6 with noon - seven. It looks like it will split fairly evenly between peak and off peak.
  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    niel wrote: »
    maybe you should consider approaching an attorney to sue them. they won't go to jail for their theft, but you can make them pay for their criminal acts.

    For that to happen we would need to find others that they have done this to. Right now waiting on their official response to ACC. Not hoping for much there as ACC was going to allow them to change net metering til everyone fussed.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    MikeSus wrote: »
    EPR6 with noon - seven. It looks like it will split fairly evenly between peak and off peak.

    Let me know how that works out, I am on the old 9AM to 9PM TOU plan.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    BTW here is a new article about APS
    http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20131021ads-spar-over-aps-views-solar-bills.html

    I saw this Add last night and was appalled at rate payers having to fund this kind of dirty dealing. While APS says it comes out of corporate profits where do those profits come from?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ8tToIeQ_U
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    I just had a thought after seeing the ice cream ad, a counter ad could be to use their statement 'Learn whose energy you are paying for' but with a small change to
    "Learn whose energy you are really using? and emphasize the word, WHOSE
     
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  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    solar_dave wrote: »
    BTW here is a new article about APS
    http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20131021ads-spar-over-aps-views-solar-bills.html

    I saw this Add last night and was appalled at rate payers having to fund this kind of dirty dealing. While APS says it comes out of corporate profits where do those profits come from?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ8tToIeQ_U


    Dave,

    So far, as of this AM since the BD meter was put in, we will have purchased 1 kWh off peak and they owe us 28kWh peak. We will do a bit more now to shift to peak usage, but it does appear that the 12-7 splits the credits fairly well for us. If I have to buy I would much rather do off peak but with it being this close I think we can shift loads a bit and manage a net zero bill. (especially with the credits getting settled up at .02 or so a kWh) My plan is to supplement heating with electric when we are running a surplus before end of year vs getting next to nothing for the settle up.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    Yeah juggling the loads around might be much easier with a noon to 7PM. We ended Sept with a 723 kWh excess on peak, but bought about 1100 kWh off peak, the problem with the 9AM to 9PM TOU. We moved the EV charging and the swimming pool back to on peak this month.
  • Ian SIan S Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    Kudos to you Mike for bringing this to everyone's attention and especially for filing a complaint with the Corp. Comm. I hope the Commissioners will take note of how sleazy APS is starting to look with their war on rooftop solar. I'm also pleased that The Arizona Republic has been covering the shenanigans related to the APS' covert funding of the anti-solar ads. At first, they had the corporate gall to deny what they were doing but were later forced to come clean. Now it's been revealed that a few years ago, APS entertained a pitch from a consulting group to engineer the ability of APS to influence debate on controversial issues and even to alter the Corporation Commission itself! APS of course denies considering the plan but what does it say when the consultants who proposed it wind up working for APS - one as their chief lobbyist?!!

    When my system was commissioned in 2012, the two-way meter was installed at or just before commissioning. With their pitched effort to squeeze rooftop solar I'm skeptical that the new policy was due to mere stupidity on APS' part. According to today's Republic, APS' solar proposals will be discussed at the Corp Comm meeting Nov. 13-14. Assuming it's public, I plan to go and I urge others to do likewise.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    Ian let me know if that meeting is a public one.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    A locked Disconnect, what about the Backfeed breaker ?? Unless there is some kind of side line tap. My outside disconnect is box is locked, I would assume that most are.
    An AC disco that can be locked in the ON position? I've never seen that and I would think the Fire Marshall would have a problem with it. Even so, you could turn the inverter off.

    Caveat: I have no dog in this hunt.
  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    Ian S wrote: »
    Kudos to you Mike for bringing this to everyone's attention and especially for filing a complaint with the Corp. Comm. I hope the Commissioners will take note of how sleazy APS is starting to look with their war on rooftop solar. I'm also pleased that The Arizona Republic has been covering the shenanigans related to the APS' covert funding of the anti-solar ads. At first, they had the corporate gall to deny what they were doing but were later forced to come clean. Now it's been revealed that a few years ago, APS entertained a pitch from a consulting group to engineer the ability of APS to influence debate on controversial issues and even to alter the Corporation Commission itself! APS of course denies considering the plan but what does it say when the consultants who proposed it wind up working for APS - one as their chief lobbyist?!!

    When my system was commissioned in 2012, the two-way meter was installed at or just before commissioning. With their pitched effort to squeeze rooftop solar I'm skeptical that the new policy was due to mere stupidity on APS' part. According to today's Republic, APS' solar proposals will be discussed at the Corp Comm meeting Nov. 13-14. Assuming it's public, I plan to go and I urge others to do likewise.

    And I had a chat with the Republic, they have all the associated info and the timing was such that they were to confront APS with it and the ACC.

    And thanks for confirming that the policy has in fact changed, I was going on the word of their employee that "they used to" your experience confirms it.
  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    ggunn wrote: »
    An AC disco that can be locked in the ON position? I've never seen that and I would think the Fire Marshall would have a problem with it. Even so, you could turn the inverter off.

    Caveat: I have no dog in this hunt.

    Didn't try actually turning it off because a) they put the lock on and b) was informed that I had to call them to turn the system off

    Can turn the DC disco's yes. The AC they stick a lock on. Wondering if that is a "new policy also?"
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,611 admin
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    On my system, I would just go to the main breaker panel and turn off the pair of breakers on the GT Inverter Branch circuit. And there was the AC/DC disconnect on the GT inverter itself.... Not sure what the "lock on" really does (unless this included breakers/fuses and a direct connection to a "solar meter--And not having a user accessble disconnect (some where/some how) does not sound like it would comply with code).

    In our area, the "lockable" disconnect was simply there so that the utility could "Lock Off" the GT inverter so the linemen could "safely" service the drop/local distribution lines (i.e., 100% sure the GT inverter cannot backfeed the utility lines).

    I could see them a requirement that the Disconnect be Locked Off prior to their acceptance/inspection... But I did not think anyone did that.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    MikeSus wrote: »
    Didn't try actually turning it off because a) they put the lock on and b) was informed that I had to call them to turn the system off

    Can turn the DC disco's yes. The AC they stick a lock on. Wondering if that is a "new policy also?"

    did they only tell you leave it on or was it in writing? what do you suppose they'd do to you if you did disconnect it, shut off your power for not giving them free electricity? they would have a tough time justifying the turn off of your power.
  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    was explained as part of "commissioning" nothing in writing...

    Again, folks, focusing on the lock isn't the issue. Most seniors around here getting Solar leases won't even dig this deep. All they would know is that their bill was less. (that is why no one is noticing)
  • solarixsolarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    I've done a lot of commissionings in APS land and I believe you will find the lock that APS puts on the AC disconnect is to lock the cover closed as a safety measure to prevent anyone from getting inside it - not to lock it on. I've seen them lock it off a few times when the homeowner jumps the gun and runs the system before it is inspected, but never to lock it on. As for the delay in changing the meter, we have not seen this to be a problem in our area. I do not think it is an APS policy per say. There are plenty of APS personnel though - especially in the lineman ranks (they are the ones doing the meter changeouts) that have fears of losing their cushy union jobs over an influx of solar competition and can be somewhat hostile.
  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    solarix wrote: »
    I've done a lot of commissionings in APS land and I believe you will find the lock that APS puts on the AC disconnect is to lock the cover closed as a safety measure to prevent anyone from getting inside it - not to lock it on. I've seen them lock it off a few times when the homeowner jumps the gun and runs the system before it is inspected, but never to lock it on. As for the delay in changing the meter, we have not seen this to be a problem in our area. I do not think it is an APS policy per say. There are plenty of APS personnel though - especially in the lineman ranks (they are the ones doing the meter changeouts) that have fears of losing their cushy union jobs over an influx of solar competition and can be somewhat hostile.

    Good to know. This is in the West Valley, but doesn't explain APS admitting that they are taking 7-10 days after commissioning. (its still on their Facebook page) And doesn't explain their service tech telling me that it has been taking up to 4 weeks. What part of the valley are you in, and are you saying the meters are being changed at commissioning? 7-10 days is still free electric to them...
  • solarixsolarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    I'm in northern AZ. No, the meters are not changed at commissioning. APS mostly uses non-unionized personnel (former secretaries etc) to do solar inspections and as such are not allowed to touch the dangerous electric stuff (thats why they need the installer to attend the commissioning to do any hands on work). Then the line-man comes out later (when they get around to it) to change the meter. So you lose a few days of excess generation. Its just a tiny cost in the initially expensive process of sticking it to the man for the next several decades of grid-tied savings.

    APS's recent shenanigans are just a sign to me that we are starting to have an effect. I figure just my work alone saves my customers (costs APS) over $10,000 a month.
  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    solarix wrote: »
    I'm in northern AZ. No, the meters are not changed at commissioning. APS mostly uses non-unionized personnel (former secretaries etc) to do solar inspections and as such are not allowed to touch the dangerous electric stuff (thats why they need the installer to attend the commissioning to do any hands on work). Then the line-man comes out later (when they get around to it) to change the meter. So you lose a few days of excess generation. Its just a tiny cost in the initially expensive process of sticking it to the man for the next several decades of grid-tied savings.

    APS's recent shenanigans are just a sign to me that we are starting to have an effect. I figure just my work alone saves my customers (costs APS) over $10,000 a month.


    Ok, here in the Phoenix area they USED to do it at commissioning, they now do it after for "safety" and because "meter won't work" (bidirectional) Both bogus, and the change seems to have coincided with their attack on solar. It really doesn't matter if its a "few days" its still theft, multiply that over a large area and its real money. I am less inclined to give them ANY slack after they called homeowners with rooftop solar "ice cream topping thieves"
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    MikeSus wrote: »
    ..they called homeowners with rooftop solar "ice cream topping thieves"
    I don't know what that means. The homeowners are stealing sprinkles, nuts, and cherries?
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    solarix wrote: »
    I've done a lot of commissionings in APS land and I believe you will find the lock that APS puts on the AC disconnect is to lock the cover closed as a safety measure to prevent anyone from getting inside it - not to lock it on.
    That makes sense. I couldn't imagine a situation where you would want to be able to lock a disco in the ON position.
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    ggunn wrote: »
    I don't know what that means. The homeowners are stealing sprinkles, nuts, and cherries?

    Hi ggunn,

    In post #35 of this Thread, solar_dave posted a link to this youtube video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ8tToIeQ_U

    That is where the 'stealing toppings" phrase came from. FWIW, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    MikeSus posted the video here originally, but we had to remove it due to copyright considerations.

    Linking to another site hosting it becomes someone else's problem, so it's okay. ;)
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric
    MikeSus posted the video here originally, but we had to remove it due to copyright considerations.

    Linking to another site hosting it becomes someone else's problem, so it's okay. ;)

    Just go to youtube and search for Prosper Ice Cream for Fairness

    Oh you mean like You Tube? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ8tToIeQ_U
  • MikeSusMikeSus Solar Expert Posts: 64 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    actually it was a link but used the insert video and link from you tube, is there a difference?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: APS Stealing electric

    Link = obviously on another server.
    Embed = looks like it's been re-hosted here.

    Mostly a legal thing. The embed is better used for your own videos rather than something you found somewhere on-line.

    Don't worry about it; we're still keeping an eye on everything and making changes as deemed necessary. Just not quite as fast as before being down one man.
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