New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
Hi I posted on other post about this but I think maybe a dedicated post here on offgrid forum ...
I was deciding on the sma sunny island or victron inverters but I had Big opportunity on buying 2x xw6048 + combox + USB programmer + remote display..

I have readed the manual and a lot of posts in this forum and still not getting on how o setup the inverter ( for simplifying this question lets assume I will only have one unit but in the future I will have both in parallel for a total of 12kw )
I want to have these as my primary house supply and by default getting power from batteries that are charged by my solar PV ..
When batts reach x low volts ( I know SOC would be better but these ones only by voltage) switch to grid...
When batts reach y high volts switch again to batteries ...
Would be nice that even when running from batteries when big loads kick in, that I can have in that period support from the grid...
like up to 4000w all from batts after that get support from grid .. If I have load of 6000w , 4000w would come from batts and 2000w from grid ...
How to setup this with parameters grid enable loadshave etc ...
I'm still waiting for the units to arrive ;)

Regards

Comments

  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    So, your idea is to run it as an off-grid installation, but when batteries get low then switch all your loads to the grid until batteries recover.

    I don't think you can set up such switching internally. You will probably need an external switch which will transfer your loads, connecting them either to XW or to grid. You can switch manually. Or, you can automate the switch to work based on voltage or on SoC, but you would need a separate device to do that.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    For what I read on the manual I can with grid support enable, just need help to understand it better and load shave ...
    Also read here that the manual and firmware have a lot of bug and omissions :(
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    fca1 wrote: »
    For what I read on the manual I can with grid support enable, just need help to understand it better and load shave ...
    Also read here that the manual and firmware have a lot of bug and omissions :(

    If you connect grid on AC1, it will be drawing about 1A (which translates to 5.7kWh/day) from the grid.

    The manual is very good. It explains everything in great details much better than most manuals that I came by.

    The firmware is not designed for the case where you want to minumize draw from the grid without selling. It works good in other situations.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    From the manual :
    mportant: To allow Grid Support to function after battery charging has completed, it is recommended to set the Charge Cycle to 2-Stage. After completing the absorption charger stage the XW Inverter/Charger checks whether battery voltage is above the Grid Supp Volts setting. If battery voltage is above the Grid Supp Volts setting, the XW Inverter/Charger uses available DC power to support the loads.
    See “Charger Settings Menu” on page 3–10.
    Turning the charger off also enables Grid Support functionality.
    If the Charge Cycle is set to 3-Stage, the Grid Supp Volts setting must be higher than the float voltage setting for your battery type for Grid Support settings to function (see “Custom Battery Menu” on page B–4 for default Float voltage settings)."
    I will have the charger off
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    PM this member, I think he does just what your trying to do. You could also search his posts.

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/member.php?12426-YehoshuaAgapao
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,925 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    fca1 wrote: »
    From the manual :
    mportant: To allow Grid Support to function after battery charging has completed, it is recommended to set the Charge Cycle to 2-Stage. After completing the absorption charger stage the XW Inverter/Charger checks whether battery voltage is above the Grid Supp Volts setting. If battery voltage is above the Grid Supp Volts setting, the XW Inverter/Charger uses available DC power to support the loads.

    It does, but in order to avoid selling to the grid, it keeps a very small negative balance on AC1 of about 1A. So, 1A comes from the grid, and the rest comes from the batteries.
  • n4wffn4wff Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Here is a screen capture of my settings.

    Attachment not found.

    The load shave amp setting is for the AC side. The lower the number, the more power you will use from the battery. The low battery shutdown setting elsewhere in the menu also affects battery use. When you get set up, play with those two settings. With my system, I have around a 1200w load, and using around 300-400 watts from the grid and the rest from the batteries and panels.
    One word of caution, you are going to beat up your batteries pretty hard. Mine is set so low because I am trying to rejuvenate some old, worn out forklift batteries by cycling them, and equalizing them regularly. I wouldn't do this with new batteries.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    n4wff wrote: »

    The load shave amp setting is for the AC side. The lower the number, the more power you will use from the battery. The low battery shutdown setting elsewhere in the menu also affects battery use. When you get set up, play with those two settings. With my system, I have around a 1200w load, and using around 300-400 watts from the grid and the rest from the batteries and panels.
    One word of caution, you are going to beat up your batteries pretty hard. Mine is set so low because I am trying to rejuvenate some old, worn out forklift batteries by cycling them, and equalizing them regularly. I wouldn't do this with new batteries.
    You are selling ? Why the 64v can you put loadshave amps to zero ? Even having as you have it 1amp, this limit is only when having both, I mean when complete on Grid I can take the maximum load , right ?
    What is the transfer time from grid to batteries, will sensible equipment a like computers etc will notice it ? My current studer is quick enough so that my sensible loads don't get armed by the transfer....
    Thanks
  • n4wffn4wff Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Yes, I am selling. The 64v setting is a feature in the firmware to allow the batteries to go through a full charge cycle every time. The manual is spotty on it but the good folks in this forum can explain it better than me. :Dhttp://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15815-XW-6048-Enhanced-Interactive-Mode-Where-do-I-select-EIM
    As far as setting it to 1 amp, I haven't tried 0. 1 worked for me and I stopped there. Hold on............
    I just switched it to 0 and I cannot tell any difference, but I am selling now. Maybe when the sun sets, there will be a change. I'll keep you posted.
    Attachment not found.
    Transfer time is fast. I know this from switching the grid tie breaker off. The CFL outdoor lights flicker slightly, but the TV and computers do not care at all. I think their power supply smooths out the ripple a little better.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    n4wff wrote: »
    Yes, I am selling. The 64v setting is a feature in the firmware to allow the batteries to go through a full charge cycle every time. The manual is spotty on it but the good folks in this forum can explain it better than me. :Dhttp://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15815-XW-6048-Enhanced-Interactive-Mode-Where-do-I-select-EIM
    As far as setting it to 1 amp, I haven't tried 0. 1 worked for me and I stopped there. Hold on............
    I just switched it to 0 and I cannot tell any difference, but I am selling now. Maybe when the sun sets, there will be a change. I'll keep
    Transfer time is fast. I know this from switching the grid tie breaker off. The CFL outdoor lights flicker slightly, but the TV and computers do not care at all. I think their power supply smooths out the ripple a little better.

    Ok let me now what happen when the sun goes down
    my residual loads are on 300/400w and so if i have to keep that from grid my all objective is gone ;)
    What i want is really to only have grid when need it..
    Here I can't sell without a contract but if I have to setup it up to sell so it doesn't use grid I may do it...
    In this pic why are you selling if batts are not fully charged ? Why are 57w getting out of the batts whith so many solar ?
    Regards
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Didn't look like he even started Load Shave till 6:00 PM, he's probably in the central time zone.
  • n4wffn4wff Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Just a quick reply from my phone. The battery fluctuates between charging and discharging as needed to maintain float voltage. I am trying to log in to my system from my phone. The tablet app works great. The web interface is flakey on a mobile device (I hope someone from Schneider is reading this).
  • n4wffn4wff Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Finally logged in. With load shave set to 0 amps, I am pulling approximately 60w from the grid, with a 465 watt load. I will be home in an hour, if you need me to try adding loads to it.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    n4wff wrote: »
    Finally logged in. With load shave set to 0 amps, I am pulling approximately 60w from the grid, with a 465 watt load. I will be home in an hour, if you need me to try adding loads to it.

    Yes please try to add more loads to check if the 60w are a % of the load or a fixed value
  • n4wffn4wff Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    OK. It is dusk dark. Load shave is set to 0A. Right now here are the readings.
    Panels 0w
    Grid - fluctuates from 42w to 90w
    Load - 750 to 780
    Battery - 870 - 900w

    When I turn on the air conditioner
    Grid - Jumps to 1843w then back down to 100 to 180w
    Load - 2300w to 2370w
    Battery - 2710w to 2775w

    After turning off the A/C it settles back to previous levels. I hope this helps. Let me know if you need any other readings.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    n4wff wrote: »
    OK. It is dusk dark. Load shave is set to 0A. Right now here are the readings.
    Panels 0w
    Grid - fluctuates from 42w to 90w
    Load - 750 to 780
    Battery - 870 - 900w

    When I turn on the air conditioner
    Grid - Jumps to 1843w then back down to 100 to 180w
    Load - 2300w to 2370w
    Battery - 2710w to 2775w

    After turning off the A/C it settles back to previous levels. I hope this helps. Let me know if you need any other readings.
    N4wff, thanks a milion for all this one think i would like to see is with bats bellow x volts will it transfer all loads to grid, even with loadshave at 0 amps ?
    Would be nice to cut the grid to complete zero when batts > x voltage ..
    Also I don't have the xantrex ccontroller so I won't have that complete information and have doubts what will be the system behavior with a non xantrex ccontroller ..
    Regards
  • n4wffn4wff Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Grid support voltage set from 64v Enhanced Interactive to 52.6v Battery is at fluctuating between 52.6 & 52.7v depending on the draw.
    Grid - switches from buying 70w to selling at 70w depending on battery voltage
    Load - 680w to 830w
    Battery 900w to 1000w
    Turn on the A/C and the grid jumps to 1380w and the load 2034w

    I don't think you can keep grid at 0 and only use it for large loads. One thing I found interesting was after this last test, I turned sell off, and grid usage jumped up to 146w with a 800w load. Battery usage is in the 875w range. As NorthGuy said, you are probably going to have to set up some external switching system to accomplish what you want to do. This was a fun experiment though.
    - Jack
  • stephendvstephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    I don't know much about the XW, so if you can figure out how to switch to grid internally without constantly drawing from the grid that's obviously the best solution. But if the XW can't be configured for this, then you can achieve the same thing by buying an inexpensive external relay and put it between the grid and the generator input on the XW (AC2?).

    Then pretend that the grid is a generator and use the XW's automatic generator start and stop functions to close and open the relay. You can program it to close the relay on low battery voltage, and also on high current draw.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    stephendv wrote: »
    I don't know much about the XW, so if you can figure out how to switch to grid internally without constantly drawing from the grid that's obviously the best solution. But if the XW can't be configured for this, then you can achieve the same thing by buying an inexpensive external relay and put it between the grid and the generator input on the XW (AC2?).

    Then pretend that the grid is a generator and use the XW's automatic generator start and stop functions to close and open the relay. You can program it to close the relay on low battery voltage, and also on high current draw.

    Hi stephendv, yes it can be like that, i already have a system made with a relay that do that with my studer...
    But i want something less DIY as this will be my main electric distribution to the house ...
    This inverter will "choose" what source should use based on loads and batt state... If I have to keep 60w from grid to have this more simple I will..
    I will have to wait until both units arrive and start to test, I will start only with one to keep it simple..
  • YehoshuaAgapaoYehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Load shave is quirky but generally works. The inverter will not load-shave while the charge controllers are providing power (even if the power is less than demand). This was intentionally programmed behavior stemming from the rolling blackouts of the California power crisis - first priority was maximizing battery power for when a blackout starts; the blackouts usually happened in the peak usage times of the day - mid-late afternoon, and many bi-modal solar installations of the day did not have enough PV to run everything on the critical panel.

    Looks like what you might want is what Outback Radian calls 'mini grid'. Operate off-grid unless the batteries are low, then connect to the grid if available, fire up the generator if the grid is down. Xantrex XW does not support this mode of operation. Xantrex XW will not voluntarily disconnect from the grid. Even on 0-amp load shave, it will still use the utility grid to balance any L1/L2 imbalances (it will draw on the heavy leg and sell on the light leg).
    like up to 4000w all from batts after that get support from grid .. If I have load of 6000w , 4000w would come from batts and 2000w from grid ...

    This is the reverse of load shave settings. Load shave is configurable to draw a max # of amps from the grid, not max # of amps from batteries. This is built around peak rate of usage price gouging, usually in commercial settings, and especially in California. I personally used load shave to shift usage from on-peak hours to off-peak hours (load shifting), not what it was designed for (peak load shaving to avoid price gouging).


    You don't need an external switch if you don't mind doing the swtiching manually. The inverter has a built-in automatic transfer switch. If you want to throw your system off-grid, you can just turn off the AC-in breaker in the PDP, the backfeed breaker in the main service panel, or the utility AC disconnect if you want to manually run your system off-grid. You will need an external switch and non-standard electronics if you want automatic mini-grid switching based on battery voltage. Or you could get an Outback Radian inverter which does support mini grid.

    The ATS is 60A (Both XW6048 and Outback Radian) and your wiring needs to be handle 60 amps, per inverter (120 amps for 2 inverters) - to handle surge capacity to the subpanel, and to accommodate combined battery charging load and subpanel load when drawing from the grid. For 120 amps (safer just to use 125 amps as the main panel breaker and subpanel will be 125A rated), that is #2 wire with 90C terminals, and #1 wire with 75C terminals (most residential subpanels have 75C terminals). If you are in the hot desert, you may need to up to 1/0 (in shade) or 2/0 (in sun).

    Another thing to watch out for 2 inverters is that you will have more than 32A of selling capacity (if you sell to the grid), which will not be code compliant on a 200A main panel and you will never pass inspection. You will need a supply-side connection or upgrade the main panel. Things could be worse if the utility company (or city) won't use the 2011 code provision for battery-based inverters.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    Load shave is quirky but generally works. The inverter will not load-shave while the charge controllers are providing power (even if the power is less than demand). This was intentionally programmed behavior stemming from the rolling blackouts of the California power crisis - first priority was maximizing battery power for when a blackout starts; the blackouts usually happened in the peak usage times of the day - mid-late afternoon, and many bi-modal solar installations of the day did not have enough PV to run everything on the critical panel.

    Looks like what you might want is what Outback Radian calls 'mini grid'. Operate off-grid unless the batteries are low, then connect to the grid if available, fire up the generator if the grid is down. Xantrex XW does not support this mode of operation. Xantrex XW will not voluntarily disconnect from the grid. Even on 0-amp load shave, it will still use the utility grid to balance any L1/L2 imbalances (it will draw on the heavy leg and sell on the light leg).



    This is the reverse of load shave settings. Load shave is configurable to draw a max # of amps from the grid, not max # of amps from batteries. This is built around peak rate of usage price gouging, usually in commercial settings, and especially in California. I personally used load shave to shift usage from on-peak hours to off-peak hours (load shifting), not what it was designed for (peak load shaving to avoid price gouging).


    You don't need an external switch if you don't mind doing the swtiching manually. The inverter has a built-in automatic transfer switch. If you want to throw your system off-grid, you can just turn off the AC-in breaker in the PDP, the backfeed breaker in the main service panel, or the utility AC disconnect if you want to manually run your system off-grid. You will need an external switch and non-standard electronics if you want automatic mini-grid switching based on battery voltage. Or you could get an Outback Radian inverter which does support mini grid.

    The ATS is 60A (Both XW6048 and Outback Radian) and your wiring needs to be handle 60 amps, per inverter (120 amps for 2 inverters) - to handle surge capacity to the subpanel, and to accommodate combined battery charging load and subpanel load when drawing from the grid. For 120 amps (safer just to use 125 amps as the main panel breaker and subpanel will be 125A rated), that is #2 wire with 90C terminals, and #1 wire with 75C terminals (most residential subpanels have 75C terminals). If you are in the hot desert, you may need to up to 1/0 (in shade) or 2/0 (in sun).

    Another thing to watch out for 2 inverters is that you will have more than 32A of selling capacity (if you sell to the grid), which will not be code compliant on a 200A main panel and you will never pass inspection. You will need a supply-side connection or upgrade the main panel. Things could be worse if the utility company (or city) won't use the 2011 code provision for battery-based inverters.


    Hi, i'm in Europe using 220V 50hz.... so in terms of amps i need to take this in attention for calcs you made .... i can't official sell to the grid without a contract that i don't have ...
    So keeping the XW maybe the only way i have to accomplish this is to have the grid connected as "generator" but now i will wait to arrive and do some testing...

    i already asked Schneider support about "zero grid " when enough solar/batteries are available...

    thanks for your answers
  • YehoshuaAgapaoYehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    fca1 wrote: »
    Hi, i'm in Europe using 220V 50hz.... so in terms of amps i need to take this in attention for calcs you made .... i can't official sell to the grid without a contract that i don't have ...
    So keeping the XW maybe the only way i have to accomplish this is to have the grid connected as "generator" but now i will wait to arrive and do some testing...

    i already asked Schneider support about "zero grid " when enough solar/batteries are available...

    thanks for your answers

    Where I live, Mesa AZ, the city does not require permits/inspections if the system is grid-tied (with or without batteries). They do require permit/inspection for off-grid systems though. In Black Canyon City, there are no city inspections on or off grid.

    The generator auto-start controls the generator and has the voltage and load triggers. You probably could hack it to drive a switch. It has 3 relays in it, each able to handle 5 amps, in DC. You will need to switch indirectly (relay 1 closes - switch on grid, Relay 2 closes, switch off grid). You will have to come up with the electronics to interpret the relay signal and convert it to switching action. You would lose any automated generator usage with this hack though. If you want mini-grid, Outback Radian supports this natively, so if you haven't bought yet, you should get that instead.

    If Europe has split phase like in America where the amps are divided onto two hot wires (440V), then your amp requirements will be around half. Otherwise the amp requirements will be about the same if the 220-240V has to be carried on a single hot wire (in America it is 240V split-phase, 120V each in opposite phase split over two hot wires).
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    Where I live, Mesa AZ, the city does not require permits/inspections if the system is grid-tied (with or without batteries). They do require permit/inspection for off-grid systems though. In Black Canyon City, there are no city inspections on or off grid.

    The generator auto-start controls the generator and has the voltage and load triggers. You probably could hack it to drive a switch. It has 3 relays in it, each able to handle 5 amps, in DC. You will need to switch indirectly (relay 1 closes - switch on grid, Relay 2 closes, switch off grid). You will have to come up with the electronics to interpret the relay signal and convert it to switching action. You would lose any automated generator usage with this hack though. If you want mini-grid, Outback Radian supports this natively, so if you haven't bought yet, you should get that instead.

    If Europe has split phase like in America where the amps are divided onto two hot wires (440V), then your amp requirements will be around half. Otherwise the amp requirements will be about the same if the 220-240V has to be carried on a single hot wire (in America it is 240V split-phase, 120V each in opposite phase split over two hot wires).

    yes 230V one line here we need to comply with several permits and inspections whith very narrow choice on solutions certified to be able to sell to the grid...
    Off grid solutions have no requirements at all expect electricity rules ..
    i will look at the gen starter, i had very good deal with the xw6408, even if its not perfect i will keep it will not get better deal than this...

    thanks
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    Where I live, Mesa AZ, the city does not require permits/inspections if the system is grid-tied (with or without batteries). They do require permit/inspection for off-grid systems though. In Black Canyon City, there are no city inspections on or off grid.

    That is really amazing! You would think it would be the other way around. I mean, off-grid, who cares if you don't connect something right, it will only hurt you. But on-grid, you have the potential to hurt other people (backfeeding).
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • newlnewl Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Off grid, if something isn't sized or connected properly, there is a potential fire hazard which in many parts of the world can be quite problematic.
  • YehoshuaAgapaoYehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    jcheil wrote: »
    That is really amazing! You would think it would be the other way around. I mean, off-grid, who cares if you don't connect something right, it will only hurt you. But on-grid, you have the potential to hurt other people (backfeeding).

    Battery fires can be pretty toxic, and easily jump on over to a neighbor's house. I don't think this is why the city is requiring inspections for off-grid systems as batteries are involved in bi-modal systems like mine. I'm thinking the city is expecting the utility to be handle inspections for basic safety (well they do at least for backfeed safety). Fully off-grid systems do not have utility inspections.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?
    jcheil wrote: »
    That is really amazing! You would think it would be the other way around. I mean, off-grid, who cares if you don't connect something right, it will only hurt you. But on-grid, you have the potential to hurt other people (backfeeding).

    And I am across town and the inspections here are to a standard better than NEC.
  • fca1fca1 Solar Expert Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Arrived today... Weekend work ahead ;)
    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.
  • n4wffn4wff Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Re: New xw6048 + combox+ loadshave grid enable how to?

    Congratulations. Have fun this weekend.
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