Commissioning Day

Blackcherry04

Commissioning Day on a new set of Surrette's, 2 V, s-1725's, 1380 amp hrs, Shipped direct from Spring Hill. I 'v got them on 15 V for 3-4 hrs then I'll look at the SG's. Right they are taking 20 amps @ 15v in absorb.

This my first foray into something other than a GC-2's, I wanted to test a set of them to see how they stack up on cost vs service. So far, just a bigger hole in the wallet.

Attachment not found.

BB.

Re: Commissioning Day

I hope they work well for you.

It does get expensive if you are funding your own product testing. I worked at company testing disk drives/tape drives/etc decades ago... I got evaluation units "for free" but it still took time (at least two-four weeks) and test equipment to filter the wheat from the chaff.

Batteries with a 10-15 year life time--In a lab even raising the temperature by +20C -- 4x faster aging and you are still looking at ~4 year life cycle testing... Oh boy.

-Bill

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

Those are very handsome indeed. Hope that you have as good luck as I have had with my Surrettes here. Vic

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

Thanks Guy's, I got the SG's up to 1.260 in about 7 hrs. I took them up to 16V for a bit and had to drop back to 15.7 for 2 hrs more, as I got a Over voltage on another inverter I had rigged up. I am calling it a day and will let them cycle for a month and see where they settle out. Now I see why it's a MUST that Surrettes have to be given a Initial break in charge and EQ.

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

Quick Update on the Surrettes, I put the batteries into service over the weekend, I cycled them down to 50 % and re-charged them twice in the 50-80% range and then subjected them to a full charge. After 4 hrs of recharge ( 14.7 V ) they dropped to less than 2 % in absorb and exited. I checked the SG's and they were 1.220, much lower than I expected. I then put them back on EQ ( 15.5 V ) for 2 hours and they went up to 1.240, then extended them another 3 hrs and got it up to 1.255, extended it for another 3 hrs and it got up to 1.265, .05 above where I started after 12 hrs of charging and EQ two days ago.

Remember I already had them at 1.260 before I cycled them. So far I am kind of disappointed in the SG level after the Full charge. I am asking myself, did it exit early ?? I had the ending amps set for 20 amps ( no load ) and I watched it drop to there over time. I am asking myself are these plates still forming ?? I know the last of a EQ is pore cleaning for the plates, did I not get them clean enough at 1.260 ?? I really don't want to do a 8 hr EQ every time I use them for a weekend.

If I had chosen these batteries for Solar only or Off Grid use, I be second guessing that decision at this point. I have the luxury to be able to move them to a Grid connection. Keep in mind these are new batteries, manufactured within the last 2 weeks and shipped direct.
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BB.

Re: Commissioning Day

I am beginning to believe that 15.x volts is the "normal" absorb for some the "industrial" models of Surrettes.

You might want to call Surrette and find out their take on the situation.

If true, that possibly makes them less efficient. Charging at 15.x and discharging at the normal 12.x volts wider charge to discharge voltage. AC inverters and MPPT charge controllers are constant power devices and the wider range in voltage means higher losses.

12.5 volts / 15.3 volts = 0.82 battery charging eff
12.5 volts / 14.7 volts = 0.85 battery charging eff

-Bill

NorthGuy

Re: Commissioning Day

Look like your batteries have the same "illness" as mine. I had to go all he way to 64V (16V in your case) to get them charged over a reasonable period of time. This didn't improve over time (about a year since purchase now).

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

I didn't really consider these to be " Industrial Batteries ", guess I was fooling myself. I bought these to see if I could move some of my customers to the next level. So far all I'd done is create a nightmare for us both if they bought in to them. Most have had GC-2's for years and they are predictable in how they charge and react to normal settings within the equipment they own.

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

BC,

All of the larger Surrette banks here like EA settings of 1.00% of actual 20 Hr Capacity when Vabs is in the range of 14.57 V per 12 V bank.

In my opinion, EQing and cycling is just finishing the manufacturing process.

Why not EQ them again, or charge them tomorrow at a bit higher Vabs UNTIL they come into line with the 1.265 SG target.

NONE of the Surrettes here need anything more than 14.57-ish V Absorption, using 1% as the EA exit.

I really do not know just where the extreme Vabs numbers have come from, other than The guy in WI, and perhaps a few unusual GT setups.

It IS true that there are extreme cases where the banks have been deficit charged for months, where daily high Vabs settings might be required in lieu of EQing every day. And, of course Opportunity Charging at higher Vabs for short solar days or weather variables.

Just my experience, BUT, at least it is experience. The few neighbors with Surrettes use very similar Absorption voltages, although few others seem to use EA, due to inverter loads. It might well be true that for banks cycled to about 50% SOC EVERY day, that higher Vabs may be required for adequate mixing, as one cannot catch up on a following day.

For what little it may be worth. Good Luck, Vic

BB.

Re: Commissioning Day

How many hours for 14.57 volt absorb when discharged by 25% every day?

-Bill

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

Hi Bill,

Well, I do not know, exactly. Believe that it is a bit more than four hours, typically. BUT, the banks here are NOT discharged to 25% "every day". And if they were, and one wanted to completely recharge the bank every day, bet that my 58.2 - 58.3 Vabs (because these are 48 V banks) would need to be bumped up a bit, or EA would need to be tweaked.

On the bank with a somewhat small PV array, we just catch up on the second day, to completely finish the recharge.

When discharging below 75% SOC, need to run the genset on this particular bank, in order to have enough PV power to get to about 90% SOC on day one, and that definitely needs a second day, and so on.

Have been using N-days between recharges for the past four months, and that clouds things a bit. FWIW, Vic

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

When I started they were at 12-12.1v, I was charging with 200 + amps for over 4 hrs @ 14.7v . That should have been plenty to get them back to 100% and they exited Absorb at 20 amps with a SG of 1.220. I can take them to 1%, but I just don't see the SG's going up that much after it took me 8 hrs @ 15.5 get them up to 1.270. They did go up 10-15 points every 3 hr run on the EQ.

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

Bc04,

You have much more general battery recharge experience than I.

Will say one more thing however. On the banks here, when using a high/very high rate of initial charge, less overall charge seems to get into the battery, such that considerably longer Absorption is required. If the 200 A current that you were referring to was just a Boost Charge for one hour or so, then this effect should be reduced. This may be the charging equivalent of Peukert's law.

The Deep cycle Surrettes here, with not so many plates, show a considerable voltage rise vs high charge current. This should also be a factor, if the Boost type charge continues for an extended time.

Agree that a conversation with Surrette seems to be a good idea. They have always given me very good support. Good luck, Vic

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

Vic, I'll give it a try, if a 15 % charge rate is too high on a 1400 amp hr bank, how about 10 % ?? Do you think that would be good ?? Yes, the 200 amps was a boost in Bulk and dropped @ 14.2 to 125 amps for absorb @ 2 % ending amps.

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

Hi Bc,

I am NO expert. But at higher rates, believe that less charge gets into the electrolyte.

It is possible that just cranking up the Abs voltage would help.

All of my the experience with Surrteee banks is primarily using PV as the source of power, so it is much more gentle, and the rates are LOW, by comparison.

The Surrette data sheets are optimistic about Capacity by 5%. This is not a huge deal, but is why I consider my "1350 Ah" battery banks to be 1280 Ah nominal ... NBD, just a nit, for what it is worth. This could have a very small effect on the EA vs C setting.

Believe that a lower charge rate will allow a more complete recharge in one cycle. Have noticed that if one recharges at high rates up to Absorb, allowing the Abs stage to terminate using the normal EA value and Vabs, and then Forces Bulk, that new cycle takes a long time. The battery knows that it was not nearly recharged fully on the initial charge.

Again FWIW, Have fun with those new batts. Am sure that you will get them shaped up in short order. Vic

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

I am going to try a few things too find the workaround. I had already lowered the capacity down to 1200 Amp hrs for the 2 % before I started charging last night and now have them set to 600 amp hrs to get the 1 % Ending Amps. I do think you can force too much current, too fast and then not get a good charge.

I can live with 1.250 or so as long as I have good capacity, but when I saw 1.220 at the end, thats a little shaky. They are at 1.272 now , but it took me 10 hrs @15.5 to get there, that is something I can't do every time I cycle them.

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

OK, Thanks Bc, Please keep us updated, perhaps at least I can learn something. Thanks, Vic

NorthGuy

Re: Commissioning Day

I tried to vary charging rate for my batteries from 7 to 14%, but it didn't make any difference. Nothing did except higher Vabs. I thought my batteries were weired, but perhaps most of the people do very shallow discharges, which are easy to re-charge. When people start discharging deeper, they get these "hard-to-recharge" effects.

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

I want to thank everyone for their participation. I started this for Informational purposes because many posters have issues with their Surrettes. I now believe that most of the Issues I have will disappear with enough cycles so the plates will charge and discharge properly. The Surrette Manual claims it will take upwards of 10 hours for the initial charge and EQ. I also knew from past experiences it takes 20-50 cycles for the SG's and charge cycles to even out, but I never had one come out of a full charge so low SG on a new battery after I commissioned it properly.

At this point I am putting them on Float for the Winter and will start back in the spring.

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

NorthGuy wrote: »

I thought my batteries were weired, but perhaps most of the people do very shallow discharges, which are easy to re-charge. When people start discharging deeper, they get these "hard-to-recharge" effects.

Hi NG,

Have been trying to get back to respond to your comment above. We DO discharge our batteries to 50% SOC, just not every day or week. When recharging from this depth, the recharge at voltages ranging from about 57.6 to about 58.2-3, the recharge is slightly incomplete of the first recharge day. And use the day following to complete it. Day one takes the batteries to about 90-some odd percent, and the next day completes that recharge. Both of these days use an EA value of 1.00% of 20-hour Capacity. It is possible that the incomplete recharge is just an effect of a bit of stratification.

BUT, these Surrete batteries do NOT need 64 V, 62 V, 60V, or even 59V for the recharge. It is quite possible that 59V might be required to fully recharge in one day, but hav not run that experiment (yet). FWIW, my Surrette experiences. Vic

NorthGuy

Re: Commissioning Day

Vic wrote: »

Hi NG,

Have been trying to get back to respond to your comment above. We DO discharge our batteries to 50% SOC, just not every day or week. When recharging from this depth, the recharge at voltages ranging from about 57.6 to about 58.2-3, the recharge is slightly incomplete of the first recharge day. And use the day following to complete it. Day one takes the batteries to about 90-some odd percent, and the next day completes that recharge. Both of these days use an EA value of 1.00% of 20-hour Capacity. It is possible that the incomplete recharge is just an effect of a bit of stratification.

Vic, I noticed this with my batteries too. After a deeper/longer discharge, they cannot reach the end amp setting in the first day, no matter how long they charge. However, the next day, they end amps go lower, and I bet the third day I could move them lower yet. I looked up my amp records back to my first equalizations, and it always was like that.

This is a very interesting phenomena, which I cannot quite understand. Looks like something prevents the full charging in the first run after a deep discharge, however the SG readings appears to be OK even after the first day. I must admit than my SG measuring abilities do not let me measure better than 0.005, but the segond day SG is the same. Have you tried to measure SG after the first and second days of these 2-day recharges?

It is also possible that the batteries do get fully charged in the first day, but with higher end amps. This would mean that "end amps termination" works only if you discharge approximately the same amount every time. Deeper discharges produce higher end amps when re-charging, and shallower discharges produce lower end amps.

I cannot tell which of these two views is correct. It is worth investigating.

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

Hi NorthGuy,

First, I have not been particularly analytical in watching these banks recharge. No data collection here, other than within the CC. Just watch the recharge of these banks carefully, and try to make some sense out of what is seen.

And, these banks are entering their ninth year of service. Your batteries are just youngsters.

However, when recharging from a discharge to a nominal 50% state, on the first recharge day (with Vabs around 58-ish V), EA is reached after a long Absorption, and the CC transitions to Float (SGs are in the 92 - 95% range). And on the second day of recharge, also using EA to terminate, 100% SOC is reached, with the same Vabs, and a considerably shorter Absorb, due to much shallower discharge overnight.

Will probably begin the beginning od some data collection in the next few months, as some of the outside projects stall due to weather.

The above is just from observation to the two largest Surrette banks in service here. Do believe that the exact metallurgy/chemistry of your batteries vs the Surrettes here differ considerably -- recall that yours are Lead/Antinomy/Selenium, vs these batteries being Lead/Antinomy.

FWIW, Thanks for the info. Vic

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

I don't think you can always believe that a 1%-2% ending amps means a fully charged battery or the SG level has much meaning. I charge plenty of batteries, I watch the drift down, if they exit from Absorb and drift down right to float voltage they are never 100% charged. If I am say charging at 29 V and they exit and drift down to 27.5 V or so and hang there for a bit and the target float voltage is 26.5 V I say those batteries are 100% charged. I see many banks because of the over voltage end early and then have a higher amp rate in float then they had in Absorb, for sure those batteries are not 100% charged.

The above is without loads, I always cut them off when working on a set of batteries so I can get a good sense of the the health of the bank.

Vic

Re: Commissioning Day

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I don't think you can always believe that a 1%-2% ending amps means always means a fully charged battery ...

I completely agree with this part of your statement. This is essentially what was trying to say above.
BUT, almost always for the banks here, EA of 1% of C when the discharge was not below about 80% SOC (+?--) this is quite close to being 100% recharged.

Also agree that the speed that Float voltage is reached is a good indication of how fully charged the bank is, even with light loads (depending on the C of the bank). This is probably directly related to battery input current as the Absorption stage ends, as you said.

I Do believe that in general SG readings are a good indication of SOC when they are in the high range -- that is, nearly fully charged, and the SG indicates this. There could be SGs that read a bit low, for a bank that is somewhat more fully charged than indicated.

Believe that you have indicated in the past, that SG readings just after going to Float could be falsely low(ish).

All that I feel that I know is that there is much to know about charging and using LA batteries, at least FLAs. Am not certain that I know much of this information. FWIW Vic

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

A quick update, I now have about 10 full cycles ( 50% dod ) on these new Surrette s-1725's. They are starting to become much more predictable with the Voltage, Capacity and SG level. As I said this was my first set of new batteries that I would consider them to be Industrial Level and I didn't know what to expect them from as I added them to my system. They take between 40-50 cycles to form the plates and the plates become balanced.

I want you to know that Steve Higgins from Surrette contacted me on his own volition and offered me guidance and advice on how to deal with them, that is product support you cannot buy from a Manufacturer.

I will update this in the spring when I start back boating. I am ready for my next set, the new S-1400EX that has 1/4 inch + plates in a L-16 size, and a 20 year battery.

NorthGuy

Re: Commissioning Day

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

A quick update, I now have about 10 full cycles ( 50% dod ) on these new Surrette s-1725's. They are starting to become much more predictable with the Voltage, Capacity and SG level.

So, how long does it take at this point to charge them to full specified SG and what absorption voltages do you use?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I want you to know that Steve Higgins from Surrette contacted me on his own volition and offered me guidance and advice on how to deal with them, that is product support you cannot buy from a Manufacturer.

That's a very nice support. Imagine, I already placed an order for Surrettes, but the dealer wasn't very cooperative with delivery options, and I switched to Trojans :grr

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

NorthGuy wrote: »

So, how long does it take at this point to charge them to full specified SG and what absorption voltages do you use?

This hard to nail down, as I have used 200 amps to charge and then dropped off 75 amps @ 14.2 V. I have the Absorb set to @ 14.7-8 V and let it drop to 1% ( the Batteries are 63 F ). The cycles have been using Grid power for the chargers so thats a factor. The answer to your question, it is about 3-4 hrs. The SG's have stabilized at about 1.250 each cycle. Since I didn't count the amp hrs in and out I am estimating based on voltage, that was skewed because of the low capacity when i started. I do remember when you started with yours and I think you had same issues.

I had a issue with the Xantrex RTS and the built in algorithm in that I couldn't get into the custom settings. The Flooded / Hot was the only option I could get to set on the SCP. I cut the thermistor off the RTS and put a potentiometer on it now I can crank to voltage where I want it. I think the SCP is a OEM version firmware is locked in some way ( a E-bay Special .... lol ).
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NorthGuy

Re: Commissioning Day

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

This hard to nail down, as I have used 200 amps to charge and then dropped off 75 amps @ 14.2 V. I have the Absorb set to @ 14.7-8 V and let it drop to 1% ( the Batteries are 63 F ). The cycles have been using Grid power for the chargers so thats a factor. The answer to your question, it is about 3-4 hrs. The SG's have stabilized at about 1.250 each cycle. Since I didn't count the amp hrs in and out I am estimating based on voltage, that was skewed because of the low capacity when i started. I do remember when you started with yours and I think you had same issues.

Yes. But your batteries seem to be improving rapidly. I still have to go through 5-6 hour absorptions at 64V

3-4 hours at 14.7V is quite acceptable. If it improves more as you cycle them, it'll work great.

What was the length of the absorption with GC batteries in the same conditions?

Blackcherry04

Re: Commissioning Day

NorthGuy wrote: »

Yes. But your batteries seem to be improving rapidly. I still have to go through 5-6 hour absorptions at 64V

3-4 hours at 14.7V is quite acceptable. If it improves more as you cycle them, it'll work great.

What was the length of the absorption with GC batteries in the same conditions?

They were about a 1 1/2 - 2 hours in absorb, but were 400 Amp hr smaller in capacity. I was going to get the new Surrette S-1400EX batteries, but got scared off for that very reason after listening to you and Chris about the charge regimen yours require. Looking back, I kind of wished I'd have tried them, the cost was only about $40 a battery. Over the long haul when I am on generator charging it would have cost me big time in fuel, so I went with these.

NorthGuy

Re: Commissioning Day

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

They were about a 1 1/2 - 2 hours in absorb, but were 400 Amp hr smaller in capacity.

3-4 hours of absorb is still way more than 1.5-2. May be the price you have to pay for bigger capacity and longevity. But, you've just started. Perhaps, with time, they get to 1.5-2 hours too. Please keep us informed.

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I was going to get the new Surrette S-1400EX batteries, but got scared off for that very reason after listening to you and Chris about the charge regimen yours require. Looking back, I kind of wished I'd have tried them, the cost was only about $40 a battery. Over the long haul when I am on generator charging it would have cost me big time in fuel, so I went with these.

Actually, Chris is happy with his batteries. If you look at one of his last posts about Combox, he has a graph that showed the absorption lasting less than two hours. I guess they improve with time too.