Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Dapdan

Hey all,

As usual I want to bring to light any of my real world experiences. Here is another, about 3yrs ago a client requested surrette top of the line batteries (5000 series) for the extra cycles and the 10yr warranty.

We noticed a drop in performance about 3-4 months ago where the system would crash occasionally. I found the offending batteries and after much back and forth surrette replaced them. As I was checking them I noticed that two of the batteries had liquid on the inside of the case (as these were the 6csp25 model). When I disconnected the cells on the inside and pulled a cell it was discovered that it was electrolyte and the sg was quite high. It was basically the nearly the same sg as was in the batteries. Surrette insisted that none of the cells could be leaking and that it had to be as a result of poor maintenance techniques. I did not have evidence to the contrary so I did not argue the point.

I recieved the replacement batteries and installed them. The old ones I removed for further investigation. I have since discovered that at least 3 out of the 12 cells were leaking at the seam of the case where they plastic weld the lid on. It was a slow but steady stream running down the side of the cell. I had removed the outer red casing on all of them so I could observe them and that is how I made the discovery. One of hte casing had at least one gallon of electrolyte inside of it. So the sg of the cell was slowly depleted until the cell start to fail on deep discharges(greater than 25% less than 50% dod).

So there it is. If the cell were not inside of this outer casing it would have been discovered much earlier. So all of those folkes out there with these large series 5000 surrette batteries be aware of this manufactures defect.

Cheers...
Damani

Dapdan

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Here are some action pics showing the leak.
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Cheers...
Damani

westbranch

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Damani, were the defective/damaged ones all in the outside position? assume 3 2v per case.
Did you send Rolls these pics?

Dapdan

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

The original battery had 3 cells together in one case. I removed all of them so I can see what was going on. If you look at one of the pics you can see a case in the distance. I did send an email today with pics to surrette.

Cheers...
Damani

Vic

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Hi Damani,

Thanks for the report.

Of the 24 ea 5000 Series 4KS25s in service here, one had a broken weld between the Jar (the inner case of each cell) and the top cover.

These batteries are all beginning their ninth year of service.

These Jars were all whitish semi-opaque PP plastic. There were obvious dings in several places on that particular Jar, which I believe are witness marks to rough handling. These batteries were directly shipped from Surrette to a close freight Terminal. There was much acid on all of the packing film, and the pallets had many dark brown spots from acid.

It was obvious that they had a very rough ride from Nova Scotia to CA. Did the initial inspection of the batteries while still on the transport trailer. All seemed OK, BUT after hand-trucking them from the trailer into the power room, the electrolyte level in one cell had dropped by about 2 liters. Pulled the top cover, and could see a bit of electrolyte at the bottom of the outer case, and on further inspection, the long side of the Jar, on a surface of the Jar that was on the outside of container was separated at the weld. Removed that cell, added more electrolyte and ran that cell outside and the other cell inside that container (after thoroughly cleaning it)r for about 5 years.

The cell with the bad weld had never vented or expelled any electrolyte during those 5 years, and eventually I made a plastic bridge piece from PP, and epoxied it onto the Jar of that damaged cell, removed the extra added electrolyte while sliding this cell back into the outer case. Things remain fine with that cell, still ... knock, knock.

This damage, in my opinion, was from very rough transit. I happened to hand-truck that battery with that split seam on the low side, causing the electrolyte to leak into the outer container during the trucking. Believe that the side of the battery with the damaged weld was on the outside of the pallet.

Have never needed to do an extended or aggressive EQ on this bank, which could have possibly caused the loss of some electrolyte, and so on.

Of course it is very difficult to blame any of your problems on shipping damage, it is almost impossible to tell. But the top cover of the Jar is quite rigid it the outer case is pushed on by some outside force (like other freight or a fork lift), and the sides of the Jar are quite flexible, so a lot stress can be placed on the weld between those two important parts of the Jar.

These welds are probably one of the most difficult parts of the manufacturing process to monitor for quality.

Opinions, Vic

waynefromnscanada

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Thanks for your message Vic, good to hear your batteries are beginning their ninth year of service, and that in spite of obvious rough handling in their early lives.

Dapdan

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Vic,

I follow everything that you are say here. I appreciate that the weld is the weak point. I have bought and sold score of golf cart batteries which are the cheapest deep cycle batteries on the market now with a 6v 230ah going for about $100. I have never seen that kind of fault or defect on golf carts. If I am now paying $1200 for a 820ah 6v premium top of the line battery I should never be seeing those faults at all and then to insist that your (the manufacturer) batteries don't leak and I have four cell out of 12 cells leaking we have a definite problem. The batteries are large and heavy so in your design you(the manufacturer) should have considered rough treatment since these batteries will alway be truck, train or ocean freighted during their journey from factory to end user. So Vic I get what you are saying but paying a premium for top of the line batteries this type of defect should not be occurring more so when cheaper batteries don't seem to have that issue.

Cheers...
Damani

Vic

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Damani,

Yes you are correct that products need to be designed to withstand typical shipping conditions, perhaps even extreme shipping conditions.

The double container Surrettes -- the 5000 Series -- have fairly thin cell walls (the Jar), as there is a second outer container. They are probably more sensitive to rough shipping than are the GC-2, or any single walled battery.

In my case, Surrette happily supplied a replacement cell free of charge, and were willing to split the shipping cost with me, but I offered to pay all of the shipping, as I felt partially responsible for not refusing the entire shipment due to all of the acid on all of the shipping film wrap.

I do believe that Surrette should pack these larger and taller batteries better. All of these shipments that I have seen, the only thing holding 1000 KG of batteries onto the pallets is about six layers of very thin shipping film, which is about two mils (0.002 ") thick per layer. In the case of the battery with the damaged cell, the entire set of 6 4KS25s had shifted on the pallet, with one battery hanging off the edge of the pallet by about four inches.

I did not know it when placing the order, but they offered an extra-cost crating option, which would have protected the batteries much better.

Surrette has always treated me very well, and hope that they do so for you. From their perspective, it can be difficult to determine just where the issue occurred -- in manufacturing in NS ?, in transit to a distributor ? in transit to the customer?

With that percentage of defects, it seems likely that if was during the welding process at Surrette ... whatta I know?

Good Luck, and hope that Surrette treats you well. Vic

Dapdan

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Vic wrote: »

Damani,

Yes you are correct that products need to be designed to withstand typical shipping conditions, perhaps even extreme shipping conditions.

The double container Surrettes -- the 5000 Series -- have fairly thin cell walls (the Jar), as there is a second outer container. They are probably more sensitive to rough shipping than are the GC-2, or any single walled battery.

In my case, Surrette happily supplied a replacement cell free of charge, and were willing to split the shipping cost with me, but I offered to pay all of the shipping, as I felt partially responsible for not refusing the entire shipment due to all of the acid on all of the shipping film wrap.

I do believe that Surrette should pack these larger and taller batteries better. All of these shipments that I have seen, the only thing holding 1000 KG of batteries onto the pallets is about six layers of very thin shipping film, which is about two mils (0.002 ") thick per layer. In the case of the battery with the damaged cell, the entire set of 6 4KS25s had shifted on the pallet, with one battery hanging off the edge of the pallet by about four inches.

I did not know it when placing the order, but they offered an extra-cost crating option, which would have protected the batteries much better.

Surrette has always treated me very well, and hope that they do so for you. From their perspective, it can be difficult to determine just where the issue occurred -- in manufacturing in NS ?, in transit to a distributor ? in transit to the customer?

With that percentage of defects, it seems likely that if was during the welding process at Surrette ... whatta I know?

Good Luck, and hope that Surrette treats you well. Vic

Vic,

All good points. I would insist though that the crate opinion shouldn't even be an option. Since you are paying a premium price for these batteries it should come with premium packing/crating. Look at how the xw6048 is shipped with it own custom built wooden crate on account of how heavy the thing is. I mean you are paying $1200 per battery. I mean they should have this shipping thing and any potential consequences on the batteries down to a science...they are supposed to be the best and leaders in their field. Anything less is just inadequate IMHO and you may as well get the cheaper GC batteries instead. As I had said in my initial post they have replaced half of the bank after much haggling. Those are the old ones you are seeing where I was trying to diagnose the leak after Surrette bluntly insisted that it was an end user fault. I have emailed them with no response or even a thank you since I seem to be performing R&D for them. My issue here is that when you are not in the USA like me and you order supposely top of the line dependable batteries you are doing this for reliability and warranty claims are the last things on your mind simply because down time waiting on replacements can be several weeks to months. As any example to ship there replacement batteries back to barbados cost my client $815us from Miami to Barbados and then an additional $500us from port to final re-installation. So that is $1315us back to installation at my client. THis does not include the freight cost within the us from the supplier to the ocean freight address in Miami as my client had to pay the directlly to the local retailer. So given all of those with these top of the line batteries or any batteries that market these attactive warranties I would take my chances with the cheaper GC batteries without the warranty.

Cheers...
Damani

BB.

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Shipping is always highly variable... And I agree that the Mfg. needs to be responsible for proper design and packaging for shipments. And they need to pick the shipper/form of shipping that matches their packaging capabilities. An end user/customer that purchases batteries once every 5-15 years simply does not have the experience to pick the appropriate shipping options.

Years ago, I was evaluating a largish 9 track tape drive system... They were well built and reliable during engineering evaluation. The first product that we got for production--They all failed and had parts rattling loose inside.

Turned out, that we were about 450 miles from the factory. Engineering units were shipped by air and production units were shipped by truck (less than 500 miles, production units went by truck, over 500 miles, units shipped by air). Turned out the drive from LA to SF was enough to shake parts/screws loose. They had to go through a redesign/using Locktite, etc. to fix the problems all due to shipping issues.

-Bill

Dapdan

Re: Surrette 5000 series 6CSP25 defect

Thanks BB. That was a good example. All that is left is for battery manufacturers to understand and implement this kind of thought.

Cheers...
Damani