connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?

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  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,490Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?

    One thing about 12 Volt, the voltage sag @ anything around or over 2000 Watts output will be so great the system will fail before there are any catastrophic failures. Usually a 1100 watt microwave will do them in.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Posts: 3,009Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?
    ashenash wrote: »



    I respect you opinion. After all, you are a moderator on a discussion board on the internet.

    So, have the last word, as I fully expect you will.

    I need a good laugh.

    Way to go. Excellent post after requesting help from experts, some of whom have decades of experience in the field.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Posts: 3,009Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?
    One thing about 12 Volt, the voltage sag @ anything around or over 2000 Watts output will be so great the system will fail before there are any catastrophic failures. Usually a 1100 watt microwave will do them in.

    Well said. If I had known in the beginning what I know now, I most definitely would have gone 24 volt, but I didn't know, and never dreamed I'd one day be running the whole house off grid, so painted myself into the 12 volt corner. To change now, after the fact, would be a big expense, so for now I make do, regularly pushing the 12 volt system to it's very limits. Not good.
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?
    ashenash wrote: »
    I respect you opinion. After all, you are a moderator on a discussion board on the internet.

    So, have the last word, as I fully expect you will.

    I need a good laugh.

    While you're laughing, 'coot needs a break so I'm going to have the last word on this for once.

    Here's a photo you can examine:

    Attachment not found.

    What is it? It's one of our old SW Plus off-grid inverters. It weighs over 150 lbs. Just the transformers in it is heavier than the AIMS Big 5000 sitting on top of it. The AIMS Big 5000 is basically the same inverter you got, built in the same Chinese sweat shop, different sticker slapped on it, except it's 24V instead of 12V. That SW Plus is a 4,000 watt unit. Now I'll give you one guess which one of those inverters can actually haul the mail at 4,000 watts continuous, and which one is grossly over-rated with specs that that are WAAAY more impressive than reality.

    When it comes to tin can junk for off-grid equipment, there is nobody here that recommends it. Evidence of this is your tech support information from Wagan - the guy does not have a freaking clue and gave you TOTALLY false information. The people that pedal this crap have never been able to gain the respect of anybody that needs real off-grid power. Because the equipment they sell is junk adapted from mobile applications.

    So when somebody shows up here and is hooking an over-rated aluminum can inverter with modified sine output to a grid power system for backup, there's a lot of people here that are going to be skeptical. Real skeptical. If you're talking about an off-grid cabin and you're going to run a few light bulbs and maybe a 'fridge, and want to do it on the cheap - fine. But when you start with residential grid-tie and/or backup power systems you either do it right or you don't do it. And doing it right starts with a real UL1741 inverter. And you ain't gonna find one of those in 12V and MSW.
    --
    Chris
  • islandguyislandguy Posts: 80Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?

    @waynefromnscanada
    I feel your pain. However I am 'lucky' in that by the time I learn what I am doing I won't have wasted to much money. Just lots of time. I fully plan to upgrade the system to a 48v one. Eventually. Hopefully when I get around to that point I'll know what I'm doing. Hopefully.

    A few times now I've taken a step back from the problem and tried to figure out exactly what I am trying to accomplish and how. There are always good and bad points to any system. That's why I am presently using both a MSW and a PSW inverter. Not the best solution by far but it will get me through a few years till I can do it right.

    With proper cabling, I think I'm using 3/0 or 4/0, you can pull high watts out of a 12v bank. In my case I can surge to 4500 and load up at 1500. Doesn't make it right, smart or code. But it can be done. And of course I plan to change that part of the system asap.

    @ashenash - I didn't buy a Ferrari either. Hell, I didn't even expect my 6K inverter to hit 6K - one of the reasons I bought it that big. On the other hand I knew I wasn't doing the job right but since I got it all working it was 'good enough' certainly better than not working. BTW - where I am it's incredibly hard to get good generator techs or knowledgeable off grid electricians. I've been waiting over two months for the local generator guy to look over the setup here and work through some questions on Bonding, Lightning and Grounding. And he charges well over a hundred bucks an hour. So my time spent on the forum here has most definitely saved me time and money.

    And Lastly, I really haven't put any specs in my signature because its kind of embarrassing:

    1 EU2000 Honda
    4 APA 2000 watt generators 1 working
    2 Wen 3500 watt Generators 1 working
    2 Powerland 6500 watt diesel Generators Both dead. - Might get one working.
    1 Gudcraft 400 watt windmill. Haven't killed it yet. Haven't mounted it yet either. - Expect it will be good to keep crows off roof.
    1 Hatz Inverter Dead - Now to be fair this was already kind of dead due to a few lightning hits over the years.
    1 Meind Inverter - Died once, warranty repair. but it was lightning so I'll call that a draw.
    1 6k MSW inverter - I killed it once and it was replaced under warranty
    1 3k MSW inverter - working so far. Replacement for the 6k when getting serviced.
    1 55amp Iota charger. Working.
    1 PM3-100 out for repair.
    1 PM3-55 Working. Has been out for warranty repairs twice.
    1 PM3-45 Dead.
    Not to mention some miscellaneous household stuff thats fried over the years. Most recently was a housemates Carver tube amplifier - Resulting in grown man tears. . . .

    About this time some of the more astute members of the audience might be catching on to the importance of doing things right. . . .

    As always, thanks for the help and input.
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?
    islandguy wrote: »
    2 Powerland 6500 watt diesel Generators Both dead. - Might get one working.

    Those Powerland generators - they got Chinese 186F Yanmar clones in 'em? I might be able to provide you with a few pointers to build one out of two and get it running.
    --
    Chris
  • islandguyislandguy Posts: 80Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Those Powerland generators - they got Chinese 186F Yanmar clones in 'em? I might be able to provide you with a few pointers to build one out of two and get it running.
    --
    Chris

    Thanks Chris - Powerland has stood by the warranty so far and promised to ship one when the new batch gets in from China. The one I'll be working on is in the greenhouse stripped down. The Plan is to have the Generator guy work through the problems - No compression wont fire even with either - and teach me about this unit.

    Things like adjusting the governor, how to bleed down the fuel and whatever else I'll need to know in order to take care of this unit. The plan is to use it as a stationary power plant over the next five years or so.
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?
    islandguy wrote: »
    No compression wont fire even with either - and teach me about this unit.

    Yeah, the valve train fell apart in them. Take the rocker cover off and you'll probably find that the valve lash adjusters came loose and jammed up the compression release so it's got the exhaust valve held open.

    There's nothing really wrong with the design of those 186F engines. They bought a Yanmar L100, took it all apart, measured it up and copied it to a "T". The Chinese are very good at that. They can't design their way out of a paper bag. But they can copy anybody else's stuff. The people that put 'em together often times just screw stuff together finger tight, so it comes apart when you run it. They're pretty easy to fix usually.
    --
    Chris
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: connecting inverter with bonded neutral to panel with same ?
    islandguy wrote: »
    And Lastly, I really haven't put any specs in my signature because its kind of embarrassing:

    1 EU2000 Honda
    4 APA 2000 watt generators 1 working
    2 Wen 3500 watt Generators 1 working
    2 Powerland 6500 watt diesel Generators Both dead. - Might get one working.
    1 Gudcraft 400 watt windmill. Haven't killed it yet. Haven't mounted it yet either. - Expect it will be good to keep crows off roof.

    There's nothing really all that embarrassing about your generator collection there. You got 9 of 'em? Dang, that's respectable. Even if they don't all work.

    That Gudcraft mill - that will last a long time if you don't put it up. I'd get just get a couple of those spare generators working and forget about the windmill. Or maybe trade the windmill for another generator that don't work. The generator will actually be useful even if you rob parts off it. If you want to put something up to keep crows off the roof, put up a scarecrow. The scarecrow will be more effective at that, and make just as much power as the Gudcraft 400 if you mount a 12 watt solar panel on it.
    --
    Chris
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