The War On Solar

monoloco
monoloco Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭
in Solar Skeptics, Hype, & Scams Corner #1
http://qz.com/119215/hippies-and-libertarians-have-become-unlikely-allies-in-a-war-against-solar-power/
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #2
    Re: The War On Solar

    Here, on the good ship America (just like in most of the world), the bottom line is control. Beware, beware to those trying to live free and independent by tapping into that free energy streaming in from the sun...
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: The War On Solar

    it goes beyond control as greed is mixed in there too. i found it hard to read so much dodo and started to skim near the end and failed to see how hippies are in favor of the utilities and furthermore hippies have kind of gone by the way side long ago. that particular journalist (propagandist) is too young to even know what a hippie is.
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: The War On Solar

    There are quite a few factual problems in that article about the spanish situation:

    1. The current energy deficit was not caused soly by solar subsidies. A large portion of it was caused by other factors like continued subsidies for nuclear plants that have already paid for themselves; over installation of new combined cycle plants and a failure of the energy regulator to regulate. A portion of the deficit is supposed to be based on the cost of electricity production, so how does the regulator establish the cost of production? Simple, it just asks the utilities, whatever number they pick out of the air is the number that's used. They've refused independent audits of their businesses.

    2. The government will NOT tax off-grid solar systems. I've read this in more than one place, where journalists misunderstand the term "autoconsumo". To clarify, there are 4 types of solar installations in spain:

    a) Pure grid tie, where everything you produce is sold to the grid at the preferential rate (These haven't been installed since 2009 because of the moratorium).
    b) "Autoconsumo" Self-consumption. You have a grid tie system, but you consume all the power yourself and feed nothing into the grid.
    c) Semi-off-grid. You have a battery based system that uses the grid as a generator and you feed nothing into the grid.
    d) Off-grid.

    Types b and c will now require that you pay for the power generated by your panels, based on the reasoning that you're using the grid and should therefore pay for its upkeep (over and above the connection fee). This is not a tax, it's a payment to the electrical company. Off-grid is exempt because it has nothing to do with the grid.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: The War On Solar
    stephendv wrote: »
    Off-grid is exempt because it has nothing to do with the grid.

    I didn't quite understand this part of article, but they mentioned fines in the range of millions of euros (sic!). Is there any truth in that?

    They also told that people are now moving their panels away into mountains. If anything, it looks extremely expensive to do and also useless because you cannot assume that the government can't find them in the mountains. Do you know what they're talking about?
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: The War On Solar
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    I didn't quite understand this part of article, but they mentioned fines in the range of millions of euros (sic!). Is there any truth in that?

    Yes. So when they cut the feed in tariff in 2009ish the only type of grid connected PV allowed was the self consumption type (autoconsumo): you install PV on your roof behind the meter and you use all of that power and inject nothing into the grid. The gov was working on a new energy reform and the PV industry foolishly thought that we would get net-metering like in the US and some other countries. So people (and a lot of factories and industries) were installing these self-consumption systems with the expectation that when net-metering came around they could just sell their excess production to the grid.
    But gov had other plans and now requires all of these self-consumption systems to register themselves with the electrical company, if they don't then they could be subject to the millions of euros fines. Once they register with the electrical company they will then be charged for every kWh they produce from their own panels for their own use, which they installed with their own money without any subsidies whatsoever.
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    They also told that people are now moving their panels away into mountains. If anything, it looks extremely expensive to do and also useless because you cannot assume that the government can't find them in the mountains. Do you know what they're talking about?

    Not sure, I've not heard that. Since it's only the grid connected PV that's affected by the new laws I'm not sure how they would move the panels - string a long transmission line from their home to the mountains?
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: The War On Solar
    stephendv wrote: »
    Since it's only the grid connected PV that's affected by the new laws

    What happens if you have an off-grid system for part of your house and regular grid for another part of our house. Assume the two systems are not connected (maybe they share a ground rod).

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: The War On Solar

    As long as the off-grid system is not connected to the grid, then it should not be affected by the new laws. And funny you should mention this, because there are some chaps who have shelled out for a grid supported off-grid system. They now either have to start paying for their solar power, or disconnect completely and turn those systems (with undersized batteries) into pure off-grid systems.

    The PV industry has submitted a petition to the EU parliament: http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/15/spain-gets-reported-to-european-parliament-by-100-spanish-bodies/ but they don't have much sway on member states internal energy policies.
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  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: The War On Solar
    They now either have to start paying for their solar power, or disconnect completely and turn those systems (with undersized batteries) into pure off-grid systems.

    Alternatively, if they can split the load between pure-off grid and grid only without having a fee imposed on the off-grid part, they could reduce the load on the off-grid to whatever it can support autonomously.

    Still, it must be very frustrating, and this looks like after it's all over RE in Spain will be in a worse condition that if they had never done anything.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: The War On Solar
    Eric L wrote: »
    Alternatively, if they can split the load between pure-off grid and grid only without being taxed on the off-grid part, they could reduce the load on the off-grid to whatever it can support autonomously.
    And pay through the nose for the batteries needed to run the off-grid part of the system, of course.
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  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: The War On Solar

    ggunn, I took it Stephen was talking about cases where they already had batteries. I'm suggesting they could still use the system without paying the fee for their solar production by reducing its load.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: The War On Solar
    Eric L wrote: »
    ggunn, I took it Stephen was talking about cases where they already had batteries. I'm suggesting they could still use the system without paying the fee for their solar production by reducing its load.
    I read it differently; I thought he was talking about such systems as opposed to grid tied systems with no batteries.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: The War On Solar
    stephendv wrote: »
    As long as the off-grid system is not connected to the grid, then it should not be affected by the new laws.

    And what happens if you use a stand-alone battery charger (plugged into the grid) to bulk up your off-grid system? --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: The War On Solar
    vtmaps wrote: »
    And what happens if you use a stand-alone battery charger (plugged into the grid) to bulk up your off-grid system? --vtMaps

    They give you a blindfold and last cigarette. :p

    Really, this is pretty ridiculous! But not unsurprising considering the sort of thing that is going on over here with various utilities.
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: The War On Solar
    vtmaps wrote: »
    And what happens if you use a stand-alone battery charger (plugged into the grid) to bulk up your off-grid system? --vtMaps

    I _think_ you would then fall under the new laws and need to register because there is a connection between your off-grid system and the grid. But Cariboocoot is right, the situation is just so ridiculous that it's difficult to tell how they will interpret all the possible permutations. A bit like asking whether the mad hatter will refuse to drink his tea if alice serves the marsh hare first. Who the heck knows!??

    But isn't something similar being proposed in Arizona? http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/no-more-free-sun-arizona-if-solar-power-fee-approved.html
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: The War On Solar
    stephendv wrote: »
    But isn't something similar being proposed in Arizona? http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/no-more-free-sun-arizona-if-solar-power-fee-approved.html

    Well not exactly. The existing owners (those approved for interconnect before end of Oct. 2013) are grandfathered in the old net metering plan for 20 years. Only fair since the systems were installed with that as a basis for ROI. The new systems will then have a choice of either a fixed monthly fee or a reduced payment amount for back feed.

    All this is pending the Arizona Corporate Commission's approval. While I don't think they will get everything they are asking for I certainly do think they are going to get some of what they want.

    I don't remember seeing anything about battery attached grid tie systems, but I could envision people wanting to just capture the excess to charge batteries and use that power on the household side of the meter instead of back-feeding. I could also see smart systems come into play that just consume the excess with opportunity loads.
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