Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

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  • CariboocootCariboocoot Posts: 17,615Banned ✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

    Funny you should mention that, Wayne. The first NiCads I got with my Ryobi set lasted years. Second and third replacements? One year and they won't hold a charge for more than a day. Why? Quality tossed in the tip I guess.

    As such I am still reluctant to fork over the megabucks for Lithium replacements. That costs almost as much as the whole cordless set together did! :p
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Posts: 3,009Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?
    I am still reluctant to fork over the megabucks for Lithium replacements. That costs almost as much as the whole cordless set together did! :p

    I definitely wouldn't go that route either. Watch for a good sale on the whole package. I got one of the 12 volt drill packages complete with charger, the works, $25.00
    The 20 volt version the other day, complete package again: $59.00
    Just the battery alone, without charger or drill, is almost twice those sale prices.
    I'm always watching for these loss-leader deals. Hahahaha
  • BB.BB. Posts: 28,083Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

    I have used and liked NiCad and NiMH for my computers and tools for years...

    I finally broke down and got a Nikita Lithium Drill/Driver kit... See what happens. So far (less than a year old, and other than initial construction project, not used much) so good.

    Cross my fingers.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Eric LEric L Posts: 262Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?
    BTW, the chargers are both Energy Star rated and stay cool, unlike the NiCad chargers which continue to suck power and stay warm even after battery is charged. Beyond that, the LiIon charger won't charge if ambient is below 40F, and the 20 volt unit takes (according to the manual) 5 to 8 hours to charge.

    My B&D 20 volt lithium charger also cuts out pretty quick if it's hot. I actually had it refuse to charge in my garage this summer simply because ambient was over 100 F, which is a good thing frankly (I brought it inside to charge and it was fine).

    I like these enough that I now have several of the B&D 20-volt lithium tools, including a pole saw that works amazingly well for the small battery on it. Although they are light duty, since they all use the same battery, after I had bought a couple with batteries, I could buy the tools without it for about $30-40 less -- saving those purchases for the future when these die. So far so good with mine too.
  • RybrenRybren Posts: 348Solar Expert
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

    I have a Rigid 18V Lithium drill/driver. It's fantastic. Charges up very quickly with almost no heat and holds a charge for a long time. I don't know how it decides to shut down, but it seemingly works at full power and then the next time I pull the trigger, it's shut down.

    I any case it's head and shoulders above my Ryobi NiCad drill. Like 'Coot, mine won't hold a charge worth a darn
  • ThomThom Posts: 184Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

    Rigid and Ryobi are the same company.

    Thom
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Posts: 3,009Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

    TTI (Techtronic Industries) manufactures Ryobi tools, Rigid tools, and Milwaukee Tools to the desired specifications.
    Whether they are made by the same company or not doesn't mean they are of equal quality. Many companies will make products for other companies according to that company's specifications.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Posts: 1,925Solar Expert ✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?
    TTI (Techtronic Industries) manufactures Ryobi tools, Rigid tools, and Milwaukee Tools to the desired specifications.
    Whether they are made by the same company or not doesn't mean they are of equal quality. Many companies will make products for other companies according to that company's specifications.

    That very well may be. All the Ryobi tools that I ever bought were total crap. Rigid seems to be Ok. All Milwaukees tools are excellent. I didn't know they were by the same company.
  • SolarPoweredSolarPowered Posts: 626Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

    Opened up the porter cable lithium, and 2 types of chargers today.
    (1) Ni-Cad only charger
    (1) Multi chemistry Ni-Cad/Lithium charger
    (1) Lithium ION Battery.

    The results were interesting and were easy to understand after review of both of the chargers.

    Also heres the shocker between the 2 chargers.

    After review of the face plates. The Ni-Cad only charger will charge between 9.6V~18V, @ 2.3 AMP per hour output, while the Multi chemistry charger charges between 10.8V~18V, @3amps per hour output. What this indicates to me from the arrangement between the two charger boards is that the Multi chemistry charger is a modified Nimh charger there is a resistor missing, and 2 zener diodes, from the original engineered layout of the NI-Cad only charger, the load side AC capacitor on the Ni-Cad board is [email protected], while the Multi chemistry charger load side AC capacitor is 200V @330uf, also noted one of the capacitors in series to parallel is larger from 200uF to 400uF for the Nicad charging portion of the boards( this will increase the volt charge from 1.5V (1 cell @1.2V)typical charge for Ni-Cad to 1.64V (1 cell @1.25v0 for Nimh), ( there fore it is not a true Ni-Cad or true lithium ion charger). the slightly higher voltage charge of Nimh multiplied by 2.25 allows a typical voltage for the Lithium batteries, probably explains why my Ni-Cd's life span has been shorter using the Multi chemistry charger. I just recycled 2 last week using the multi chemistry chargers more than usual.

    In review of the chargers there were 5 items that stood out that it was for lithium based.
    1- Transformer was found in the far left corner for the multi chemistry charger
    2- 1 additional mosfet for the multi chemistry charger
    3- additional buss - the Ni-Cad charger uses 3 buss terminals, the multi chemistry uses 4 buss terminals. I believe the difference having the second buss based pn assumption has the additional voltage ((1.64)2.25/1.125= secondary buss voltage), this would explain why the resistor is inline to the secondary buss for lithium, and then has a jumper from microprocessor to the 1st buss, then combined at BMS buss terminal), amperage remains the same as the face plate rating on the charger only indicates 3amps per hour (regardless of Ni-cad or Lithium Ion). Makes sense since I can take either the lithium or Ni-cads off the charger within minutes. The transformer in the left corner of the charger suggests that it multiplies voltage charge for the lithium batteries.
    4- microprocessor and jumper along with a resistor at each buss to limit voltage to the battery, processor is used for staging the voltage and amperage to the series of lithium batteries.
    5-2 way bridge

    The engineering is very crude.

    As you can see the multi chemistry charger is on the left and the Nicad charger is on the right.
    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.

    Opening up the lithium Battery there is BMS shown. Microprocessor was shown on the face end of the board. In between the series of lithium batteries a temp sensor was taped down to the base of the battery series. In between each series of 2 batteries there is a line side feed for charging. I would assume this is for the method of charging. This indicates to me that the jumper lines in between each set of batteries in series is so that the amperage is split between each series of batteries during charge, these 4 charge input conductors are 18AWG, while the common and positive conductors at end series for tool discharge are 14AWG.

    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.

    After further review of the series of lithium batteries the end run positive cell seems to be destroyed as the end between wire and battery a rustic brown. Which could be why I am only getting 5~8minutes of use out of this battery.

    I will also be replacing the Ni-Cads with Nimh's after they burn up.


    In conclusion there's to much processing and splitting clutter to charge these dang lithiums!
  • vtmapsvtmaps Posts: 3,738Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?
    Also here's the shocker between the 2 chargers.
    The Ni-Cad only charger will charge between 9.6V~18V, @ 2.3 AMP per hour3amps per hour output.

    The shocker to me is that their output is in amps per hour. :confused:

    --vtMaps (with apologies to Cariboocoot for being so pedantic)
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • ThomThom Posts: 184Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?
    TTI (Techtronic Industries) manufactures Ryobi tools, Rigid tools, and Milwaukee Tools to the desired specifications.
    Whether they are made by the same company or not doesn't mean they are of equal quality. Many companies will make products for other companies according to that company's specifications.

    All I know is that I use both brands every day at work . Both work fine . I like the new battery chemistry . They are lighter and last longer . Home owners have more trouble with battery drills then tradesmen . Older chemistry batteries lost power just sitting on the shelf . I use 5 @ 18v Ryobi batteries 5 or more days a week in verious tools, fans ,radio. What I don't like about them is at low temps (0Fand below) they don't work we'll.

    Thom
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator
  • SolarPoweredSolarPowered Posts: 626Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    The shocker to me is that their output is in amps per hour. :confused:

    --vtMaps (with apologies to Cariboocoot for being so pedantic)

    Excuse me, on the faceplate its just written as AMP.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Posts: 17,615Banned ✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

    VtMaps;

    You are correct that "Amps per hour" does not make sense for a battery charger. They would have a maximum current rating in Amps and that's it. I do not see anything surprising about two different chargers having two different V & A ratings. Neither output factor is going to be constant and 0.7 Amps isn't much difference really.

    Looking at my Ryobi dual NiCad charger it says 19 Volts, 2.8 Amps. The single unit one says 19 Volts, 2.2 Amps. Not a large change between charging one and charging two.

    But I'm sure manufacturers want you to believe that if you use some other charger with their batteries the barriers of reality will be destroyed and monsters from the dungeon dimensions will come through and eat you. :roll: :p
  • SolarPoweredSolarPowered Posts: 626Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?
    VtMaps;

    I do not see anything surprising about two different chargers having two different V & A ratings. Neither output factor is going to be constant and 0.7 Amps isn't much difference really.

    It lessens the time to charge making the batteries hot. To me that just sounds like a shorter life cycle battery.

    Most common (AA/AAA) Nimh chargers charge at 500mAh, .5amps, charge a Nihm battery roughly anywhere from 6~8 hour depending on the Ah size of that battery. I have 3800mAh nihm's that charge at under .5amps and will last maybe 10 fold compared to a lithium or Nicd with a Ah size of 1.3Ah (1300mAh), yet get charged over double its output.

    Iphone Lithium batteries charge at half the rated Ah capacity. 5V @ .81amp Iphone battery is 3.7V 1430mAh. My phone has lasted me 2 years with no problems yet, charge/discharge holds strong.

    IMO the higher the amp rating which exceeds the batteries internal Ah will only decrease the life cycles of that battery. So even at a .7amps increase in charge would probably decrease life of the battery by 10% or 15% hypothetically.

    The reason why dewalt nicd's last so long is because the charger that is used charges at a lower voltage and amperage when compared to the porter cable NIcd's. Dewalt voltage is 7.2~18V @ 2.1 amps.


    I would rather buy 10 extra batteries, have a charger that charges in half that time, rather than rapidly charging them. Batteries would last much longer.
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