Solar Dilemma

KnowledgeSponge

I need some help figuring this out.

I have
5 x 100Watt, 12V panels.
1 x Xantrex Prowatt 2000 Inverter
1 x 30A charge controller (not MPPT)
2 x 120Ah batteries
1 x Manual Transfer Switch (for my generator) that's wired to most of the circuits in my home EXCEPT for the Central AC, Water heater, Dryer and Range

But my dilemma is getting the power from the batteries to the desired places in my home.

At first, I thought I was going to make a cable that plugged into the Inverter on one end and the Manual Transfer switch on the other.
This cable would have a standard 15A male outlet plug on one end (to plug into the Inverter) and a 30A, 4 prong twist lock L14-30A female plug for the Transfer switch panel on the other end.

But then I learned about something called a Floating Ground (I think. Even though I couldn't find that mentioned in the Xantrex User Guide)
Anyway, I learned that for reasons I have not yet studied enough to understand you can't do that.
Seems the Inverter will smoke if I connect it to the Manual transfer switch even though the circuit in question is totally isolated from
the grid by way of the manual transfer switch selector switches.

So, now it appears I will have to run extension cables through my house to various appliances or lights I want to power when I want
to use solar power. This goes against almost everything I was trying to do. I wanted to use my Inverter and batteries to power
CIRCUITS in my home so that I could easily plug in to the Manual Transfer Panel and tap the energy stored in the batteries the same
as I connect the generator.

I DO NOT want cords running through windows etc.

Am I going to have to purchase yet another Transfer switch? One that does not utilize floating grounds (or whatever).
One specifically made to work with an Inverter?

Surely there has to be a work around for this?

There IS another thread that deals with this topic and I read it in it's entirety.
But I have a slightly different angle and different gear.

Thanks

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar Dilemma

I think you've got a couple of things confused.

You probably came across the problem inherent with connecting the AC output of an MSW type inverter to a standard distribution panel, which has a neutral-ground bond that the inverter will not tolerate: instant fireworks.

So instead you connect with a wiring method called "floating neutral", which means there is no N-G bond.

If you can sort out the AC wiring so that you know what type of output the inverter has and where/if there is a neutral-ground bond you can switch critical loads to the inverter without any trouble.

Usually because the inverter can not handle the full power capacity of even half a standard AC distribution panel the critical loads are connected to the main via a sub panel, whose power is switched between the main and the inverter by the transfer switch.

BB.

Re: Solar Dilemma

And you can get AC transfer switches that not only transfer the "hot legs" (black for 120, black and read for 240 VAC) but will also transfer the neutral too...

In this case, you would have black+red+neutral on your load side (if you have red too).

Black+Red+Neutral on the AC line side (with the AC main neutral ground bonded).

And B+R+N on the inverter side (or just B+N for 120 VAC). That will "float the neutral" because the neutral is not bonded at the AC inverter (or on your sub panel loads).

Note it does get a bit more complex... Many homes "home run" a B+R+N -- And because the Black+Red are 180 degrees out of phase, only the "difference" in current flows on the neutral leg (l.e, the neutral can never carry more than the breaker on either the B or R legs).

If you have B+R wiring and run it all to a 120 VAC inverter... The B+R now add up, and the total current of the B+R is on the return Neutral (if shared neutral).

If the inverter is less than 1,800 watts @ 120 VAC--It is not a problem--The B+R will never be more than ~15 amps.

If your inverter is >>1,800 watts, then you have to make sure that the B+R lines do not share a common neutral return from your home's circuits...

Trying to be extra careful here--There are many ways you can mess up--But if you think it out ahead of time--you will be fine.

-Bill

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

Thanks for the informative replies. I'll be reading and re-reading them until it makes perfect sense. <thumbs-up>

Found this diagram on WeldingWeb.com
Can anyone confirm that this diagram will do what I need?
I am NOT going to connect anything until I verify and re-verify that the wiring is correct.
Even if it takes a few weeks of studying.

The PROPOSED (New and Improved?) way I will change the plug connections.


And THIS is how I had connected it Initially....(Doesn't work)


And...For your viewing pleasure (or displeasure)...
Here is the beginnings of my setup. (Yes, yes, Outback MPPT as soon as I can ;-)


And here's my custom cable


I called Xantrex.
Neutral and Ground are NOT bonded in this Inverter.

And here is my Manual Transfer Switch


As you can see, what I WANT to do is plug the Orange plug into the ProWatt 2000 and the other twist lock end into the Transfer switch. (And have it work).

The gray speckles all over the wall are from an exploded can of spray paint.
The can fell from a top shelf and hit a very sharp steel edge at JUST THE RIGHT (or wrong) angle and POW!!
What a MESS!

NorthGuy

Re: Solar Dilemma

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

As you can see, what I WANT to do is plug the Orange plug into the ProWatt 2000 and the other twist lock end into the Transfer switch. (And have it work).

I wouldn't do that if I were you. Xantrex produces 120V, but transfer switch outlet is for 240V.

BB.

Re: Solar Dilemma

Don't wire anything up yet!!!!!!!!!!

NEMA codes:

The blades of a NEMA connector are identified with:^[1]


[TH]Blade Function[/TH]
[TH]Letter[/TH]
[TH]Color[/TH]
[TH]Notes[/TH]


Ground
G
Green



Neutral
W
White



Phase 1 hot
X
Black
X only is single phase 120V


Phase 2 hot
Y
Red
X Y is single phase (centre-tap neutral) 240V or 480V


Phase 3 hot
Z
Blue
X Y Z is wye three phase 120/208V

As drawn, and if I understand the drawings correctly, your reversing "hot and neutral" at the very least in the pictures.

The WIDE BLADE should connect to the W blade on the twist lock. Connect the narrow blade to the X connector.

Normally, the neutrals have silver or tin colored screws, the grounds have green screws, and the hot leads have brass or copper colored screws.

If you generator is 15-20 amps maximum output (or higher amperage if your generator has another high current connector)... Then you could also jumper the X to the Y connector and get 120 VAC to both of the bus bars in the load center. This will give 120 VAC to all of the circuits (but, obviously, will not provide 240 VAC to any two pole circuits).

And, you have to understand the neutral wiring for your circuits... If you have any three wire+ground circuits (black+red+shared white), then you cannot share a single 120 VAC phase on both black+red as this can overload the shared neutral return wire (if B+R is greater than the ampacity of the neutral).

-Bill

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

Thanks guys (group hug).

I PROMISE NOT to connect anyhting until there is 99.99999% certainty it's correct.
(And I've got $350 bucks I have no use for that I want to give to Xantrex).

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar Dilemma

You have an inverter with output L1, N, and G.
You have a transfer switch input with L1, L2, N, and G.
The trick is to get L1 to L1, N to N, and G to G - skipping L2.
If some of the loads you want to run are on L2 then even that won't work.

In theory your first patch cord wiring should have worked, as 'X' and 'Y' should be L1 and L2 with 'W' being N. Wiring the white (N) wire to 'Y' would try to put 120 VAC across the 240 VAC input. But maybe something is wired wrong there.

This needs to be tested so you know where the input to the panel goes. Only thing is, that input plug on the panel is never live no matter what position the switch is in; it's only live with power being fed to it. You need to open the panel and check the wiring inside. Since it will be live inside, this is something that needs to be done either very carefully or with the main power off.

I notice that each circuit on this panel seems to have individual transfer switches: they are labeled 'GEN'
'OFF'
'LINE'

As such, any given load connected to one of these will only be active with the power input correct (L1 and N or L2 and N) and the switch on 'GEN' for that line.

If you know which of these is which, try it with a simple light bulb connected to the appropriate outlet, switch set to 'GEN' and then original patch cord configuration to the active inverter. If it does not light up move the black wire from 'X' to 'Y'. If it still doesn't work there's something wrong inside the box.

You are quite right to sort this out carefully because there is already a lot of complicated wiring in place.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

BB. wrote: »

Don't wire anything up yet!!!!!!!!!!

NEMA codes:


As drawn, and if I understand the drawings correctly, your reversing "hot and neutral" at the very least in the pictures.

The WIDE BLADE should connect to the W blade on the twist lock. Connect the narrow blade to the X connector.

Normally, the neutrals have silver or tin colored screws, the grounds have green screws, and the hot leads have brass or copper colored screws.

If you generator is 15-20 amps maximum output (or higher amperage if your generator has another high current connector)... Then you could also jumper the X to the Y connector and get 120 VAC to both of the bus bars in the load center. This will give 120 VAC to all of the circuits (but, obviously, will not provide 240 VAC to any two pole circuits).

And, you have to understand the neutral wiring for your circuits... If you have any three wire+ground circuits (black+red+shared white), then you cannot share a single 120 VAC phase on both black+red as this can overload the shared neutral return wire (if B+R is greater than the ampacity of the neutral).

-Bill

Bill,

I just pulled out the manual for the EmerGen Manual Transfer Switch and there are only Red and Black wires, No white wires.
So each circuit in the EMTS has only TWO wires that go to the House MAIN Panel.
So when this connected into the MAIN HOUSE PANEL, each circuit only utilized two wires. One red and one black.

Here's how the instructions read for connecting the Manual Transfer Switch TO the Main Breaker...

Locate the circuit breaker in the Main Panel that is to be connected to the EMTS (Emergency Manual Transfer Switch), Loosen the lug and remove the wire.

The RED wire from the EMTS is installed into the circuit breaker
The BLACK wire from the EMTS and the HOT wire just removed are connected.

So, for each circuit, I simply removed the wire from the breaker and installed the RED wire from the EMTS into that breaker, then wire nutted the
black wire from the EMTS TO the wire I removed from the circuit breaker.
(The EMTS box was NEVER opened at all).

That's it. There were no WHITE wires coming from the EMTS.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

Cariboocoot wrote: »

You have an inverter with output L1, N, and G.
You have a transfer switch input with L1, L2, N, and G.
The trick is to get L1 to L1, N to N, and G to G - skipping L2.
If some of the loads you want to run are on L2 then even that won't work.

In theory your first patch cord wiring should have worked, as 'X' and 'Y' should be L1 and L2 with 'W' being N. Wiring the white (N) wire to 'Y' would try to put 120 VAC across the 240 VAC input. But maybe something is wired wrong there.

This needs to be tested so you know where the input to the panel goes. Only thing is, that input plug on the panel is never live no matter what position the switch is in; it's only live with power being fed to it. You need to open the panel and check the wiring inside. Since it will be live inside, this is something that needs to be done either very carefully or with the main power off.

I notice that each circuit on this panel seems to have individual transfer switches: they are labeled 'GEN'
'OFF'
'LINE'

As such, any given load connected to one of these will only be active with the power input correct (L1 and N or L2 and N) and the switch on 'GEN' for that line.

If you know which of these is which, try it with a simple light bulb connected to the appropriate outlet, switch set to 'GEN' and then original patch cord configuration to the active inverter. If it does not light up move the black wire from 'X' to 'Y'. If it still doesn't work there's something wrong inside the box.

You are quite right to sort this out carefully because there is already a lot of complicated wiring in place.

Superb !
I will be studying this post carefully. It makes sense.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

BB. wrote: »

Don't wire anything up yet!!!!!!!!!!

NEMA codes:


As drawn, and if I understand the drawings correctly, your reversing "hot and neutral" at the very least in the pictures.

The WIDE BLADE should connect to the W blade on the twist lock. Connect the narrow blade to the X connector.

Normally, the neutrals have silver or tin colored screws, the grounds have green screws, and the hot leads have brass or copper colored screws.

If you generator is 15-20 amps maximum output (or higher amperage if your generator has another high current connector)... Then you could also jumper the X to the Y connector and get 120 VAC to both of the bus bars in the load center. This will give 120 VAC to all of the circuits (but, obviously, will not provide 240 VAC to any two pole circuits).

And, you have to understand the neutral wiring for your circuits... If you have any three wire+ground circuits (black+red+shared white), then you cannot share a single 120 VAC phase on both black+red as this can overload the shared neutral return wire (if B+R is greater than the ampacity of the neutral).

-Bill

Bill,

Thank you for this info. It is extremely helpful.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

Cariboocoot wrote: »

You have an inverter with output L1, N, and G.
You have a transfer switch input with L1, L2, N, and G.
The trick is to get L1 to L1, N to N, and G to G - skipping L2.
If some of the loads you want to run are on L2 then even that won't work.

In theory your first patch cord wiring should have worked, as 'X' and 'Y' should be L1 and L2 with 'W' being N. Wiring the white (N) wire to 'Y' would try to put 120 VAC across the 240 VAC input. But maybe something is wired wrong there.

This needs to be tested so you know where the input to the panel goes. Only thing is, that input plug on the panel is never live no matter what position the switch is in; it's only live with power being fed to it. You need to open the panel and check the wiring inside. Since it will be live inside, this is something that needs to be done either very carefully or with the main power off.

I notice that each circuit on this panel seems to have individual transfer switches: they are labeled 'GEN'
'OFF'
'LINE'

As such, any given load connected to one of these will only be active with the power input correct (L1 and N or L2 and N) and the switch on 'GEN' for that line.

If you know which of these is which, try it with a simple light bulb connected to the appropriate outlet, switch set to 'GEN' and then original patch cord configuration to the active inverter. If it does not light up move the black wire from 'X' to 'Y'. If it still doesn't work there's something wrong inside the box.

You are quite right to sort this out carefully because there is already a lot of complicated wiring in place.

The Emergency Manual Transfer Switch is factory sealed and I have never opened it.
It will work right now with the Generator so I have to assume everything inside the EMTS is correct.

The only problem I'm having is getting output from the Inverter into the EMTS and passed on to the Main Panel for the House.

Before I connect my Inverter again, I will do a complete wiring diagram of everything to make perfectly clear what is connecting where and the implications.
I will do that probably in PhotoShop and post the resulting wiring diagram here before connecting the Inverter again.
The Inverter is working and I want to keep it that way.

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar Dilemma

Not wanting to open a sealed box makes perfect sense.

So let's check the obvious; have you used this with a 240 VAC generator and does it work?

I ask because I see no "main" transfer switch on that box and wonder if it has a built-in automatic 240 VAC switch. If it does, applying 120 VAC to one side of the input will not trigger that switch and so the power will never pass through.

As far as not burning up the inverter is concerned, there's not a very great risk. It's AC output is entirely separate from the house wiring at this point. So you could apply this against the 240 input, in which case the resistance would be high (under-powering loads), or to 120 VAC input and have it work. It is not likely you'd manage to short the inverter output which is what would damage it.

You could also try feeding the transfer with a 120 VAC gen if you have one, or half the output from a 240 VAC gen. For instance if you have a 240 gen & connector plug that you know works, disconnect one leg from it and see if the transfer still functions.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Not wanting to open a sealed box makes perfect sense.

So let's check the obvious; have you used this with a 240 VAC generator and does it work?

I ask because I see no "main" transfer switch on that box and wonder if it has a built-in automatic 240 VAC switch. If it does, applying 120 VAC to one side of the input will not trigger that switch and so the power will never pass through.

As far as not burning up the inverter is concerned, there's not a very great risk. It's AC output is entirely separate from the house wiring at this point. So you could apply this against the 240 input, in which case the resistance would be high (under-powering loads), or to 120 VAC input and have it work. It is not likely you'd manage to short the inverter output which is what would damage it.

You could also try feeding the transfer with a 120 VAC gen if you have one, or half the output from a 240 VAC gen. For instance if you have a 240 gen & connector plug that you know works, disconnect one leg from it and see if the transfer still functions.

When you say "Box", do you mean the Gray Manual Transfer Switch? I only posted a picture of the Manual Transfer Switch which is that entire gray box.
The Main House Panel is about 6 inches away and not shown.

The Generator that is known to work with this Transfer Switch (Box) is a Powermate PM0545007.01
It has a 240V female socket that the cord plugs into then goes to the Manual Transfer Switch.

So, I suppose it's safe to say that the "working" configuration is TWO hot leads, One Ground and One Neutral.

But obviously my ProWatt 2000 only has ONE Hot lead, One Ground and One Neutral.

So I assume One of the Hot leads powers one set of circuits (let's say the Left side) and the other Hot lead powers the other column of circuits (The Right side).

So as was pointed out, at best, I will only be able to power ONE side of the transfer switch. Let's say the Left column of circuits.

I need to do a logic flow chart I think.

NorthGuy

Re: Solar Dilemma

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

So as was pointed out, at best, I will only be able to power ONE side of the transfer switch. Let's say the Left column of circuits.

At best (as Bill said) you can connect your wire to both X and Y terminals and it'll power everything since you do not have 240V loads anyway. There's no reason why you cannot do that, so if you can power something, you can power everything.

The problems you might have can only be caused by internal working of the switch.

- If it has neutral bonded to ground, your GFI on Xantrex will trip. You can fight this by not connecting ground wire from Xantrex to anything, but this leaves it ungrounded.

- If, as Coot explained, there's any logic insde the switch that requires 240V to be applied to turn it on. If that's the problem, you can either open it and seriously rewire the internals, or you can simply buy a transformer which will convert 120V to 240V.

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar Dilemma

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

When you say "Box", do you mean the Gray Manual Transfer Switch? I only posted a picture of the Manual Transfer Switch which is that entire gray box.
The Main House Panel is about 6 inches away and not shown.

Yes; the transfer box.

The Generator that is known to work with this Transfer Switch (Box) is a Powermate PM0545007.01
It has a 240V female socket that the cord plugs into then goes to the Manual Transfer Switch.

So, I suppose it's safe to say that the "working" configuration is TWO hot leads, One Ground and One Neutral.

But obviously my ProWatt 2000 only has ONE Hot lead, One Ground and One Neutral.

Correct. So the test here is to try the set-up powered from the generator with one of the gen's output hots disconnected; effectively the same as trying to power it from the inverter (120 VAC). If it doesn't work on any circuit then the transfer box has a built-in relay which requires 240 VAC to activate the connection to the load circuits.

So I assume One of the Hot leads powers one set of circuits (let's say the Left side) and the other Hot lead powers the other column of circuits (The Right side).

So as was pointed out, at best, I will only be able to power ONE side of the transfer switch. Let's say the Left column of circuits.

I need to do a logic flow chart I think.

This is logical that half the circuits are connected to one leg of the 240 and the other half are on the other. It's the best they can do for balancing indeterminate loads.

You could probably use a schematic. But my body temp seems to bee 100.5F right now so I'm not going to try and draw one lest it contain flying hippos and whatnot.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

Cariboocoot wrote: »

But my body temp seems to bee 100.5F right now so I'm not going to try and draw one lest it contain flying hippos and whatnot.

Why the fever? I just finished watching Survivors (where 90% of the worlds population dies from a virus)

IT hasn't "started" has it?.....lol

BB.

Re: Solar Dilemma

OK, if I have the right Prowatt 2000 manual from Xantrex (pdf download)--It does not state that the neutral is ground bonded internally--But it probably is. They say use a standard AC outlet tester for see that the hot/neutral/ground are properly wired.

I would suggest calling Xantrex and asking them if the AC neutral is bonded to chassis ground or not (and the AC outlet is floating, so the DC battery input can also be grounded).

Then--I would open up the output side of the inverter... It has a GFI outlet--And I don't like those for wiring into a sub panel. You don't want a single ground fault (say at the sink) to turn off all AC power (turn off lights, fridge, etc.).

I would remove the GFI outlet and check to see if you can figure out where the Neutral is bonded inside the AC Inverter and disconnect the neutral to earth bond. When you connect the inverter output to the sub-panel, it will pick up the neutral bonding from the homes main panel. And with the GFI outlet removed (or bypassed), you can install GFI outlets where needed (at sinks, outside outlets, etc.).

If you cannot confirm with Xantrex that the AC output is floating (with respect to the battery input--i.e., most sine wave inverters have floating outputs, and most MSW inverters have non-isolated AC outputs and cannot be neutral+earth bonded)--Then this may not be the correct inverter.

Also, if you cannot isolate the neutral+chassis bond at the AC inverter--You have the choice of not connecting the chassis bond (leave the inverter with floating sheet metal--referenced to the neutral bond--Not exactly "safe" if something goes wrong)--Or you have to look at another way of making your inverter backup panel (using an AC transfer switch that can switch neutrals too, etc.)...

If you cannot disconnect the GFI outlet in the inverter--You may have problems with "false" GFI trips on the inverter output...

This is tough to describe just by typing--And not knowing the details of the inverter's AC output makes even more guess work.

-Bill

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

BB. wrote: »

OK, if I have the right Prowatt 2000 manual from Xantrex (pdf download)--It does not state that the neutral is ground bonded internally--But it probably is. They say use a standard AC outlet tester for see that the hot/neutral/ground are properly wired.

I would suggest calling Xantrex and asking them if the AC neutral is bonded to chassis ground or not (and the AC outlet is floating, so the DC battery input can also be grounded).

Then--I would open up the output side of the inverter... It has a GFI outlet--And I don't like those for wiring into a sub panel. You don't want a single ground fault (say at the sink) to turn off all AC power (turn off lights, fridge, etc.).

I would remove the GFI outlet and check to see if you can figure out where the Neutral is bonded inside the AC Inverter and disconnect the neutral to earth bond. When you connect the inverter output to the sub-panel, it will pick up the neutral bonding from the homes main panel. And with the GFI outlet removed (or bypassed), you can install GFI outlets where needed (at sinks, outside outlets, etc.).

If you cannot confirm with Xantrex that the AC output is floating (with respect to the battery input--i.e., most sine wave inverters have floating outputs, and most MSW inverters have non-isolated AC outputs and cannot be neutral+earth bonded)--Then this may not be the correct inverter.

Also, if you cannot isolate the neutral+chassis bond at the AC inverter--You have the choice of not connecting the chassis bond (leave the inverter with floating sheet metal--referenced to the neutral bond--Not exactly "safe" if something goes wrong)--Or you have to look at another way of making your inverter backup panel (using an AC transfer switch that can switch neutrals too, etc.)...

If you cannot disconnect the GFI outlet in the inverter--You may have problems with "false" GFI trips on the inverter output...

This is tough to describe just by typing--And not knowing the details of the inverter's AC output makes even more guess work.

-Bill

Thx Bill.

According to Xantrex the ProWatt 2000 does not have the Neutral bonded to Ground.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

Ongoing saga.....

Today I spoke with an engineer at the facility that manufactured the Manual Transfer Switch. Andy.

Andy had me test several outputs on the INVERTER.
1). Continuity between Neutral and Ground (Yes)
2). Continuity between Hot and Ground (No)
3). Voltage between Hot and Neutral (120)
4). Voltage between Neutral and Ground (Zero)
5). Voltage between Hot and Ground (120)

Then he had me plug in the adapter cord, power it up and test output at the L14R-30 socket

1). Ground on the 5-15P 3 prong plug was properly connected to ground on the L14-30R plug
2). Neutral on the 5-15P 3 prong plug was properly connected to the Neutral terminal on the L14-30R plug
3). Hot on the 5-15P 3 prong plug was connected to terminal X on the L14-30R plug (leaving terminal Y empty)

However, when this adapter plug was plugged in and the inverter powered up, it hummed and did not work properly.

I asked him about the internal workings of the Transfer Switch and he said there were "NO ELECTRONICS" inside the transfer switch. Just straight wiring.

Inside this Transfer Switch are two separate buses. One for the left side and one for the right side.

Andy tried to assist but relented that this was outside the scope of the manufactured purpose and couldn't give additional advice.

I also asked him about floating neutrals and bonded neutrals and grounds.
His reply was that he was unaware of the effect those might have but did say that the configuration
of the adapter plug I had should properly power one side of the Transfer Switch.

So, I'm back to ground zero albeit with a bit more information.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

For clarification and verification.....

On a 5-15P standard outlet
HOT (black wire usually) is connected to the small spade located at the 3:00 position.
NEUTRAL (White Wire usually) is connected to the Large spade located at 9:00
GROUND (Usually Green) is at the 6:00 position.


On a L14-30R plug.....
(Oriented with the tang containing the small 90 deg bend on it to the 6:00 position....)

HOT (there are 2 of them) is located at 9:00 and 3:00
NEUTRAL is located at the 12:00 position
GROUND is the tang with the 90 indexing bend and is located at 6:00

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar Dilemma

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

For clarification and verification.....

On a 5-15P standard outlet
HOT (black wire usually) is connected to the small spade located at the 3:00 position.
NEUTRAL (White Wire usually) is connected to the Large spade located at 9:00
GROUND (Usually Green) is at the 6:00 position.


On a L14-30R plug.....
(Oriented with the tang containing the small 90 deg bend on it to the 6:00 position....)

HOT (there are 2 of them) is located at 9:00 and 3:00
NEUTRAL is located at the 12:00 position
GROUND is the tang with the 90 indexing bend and is located at 6:00

Yes.

Worst case: you connect the hot and neutral from the inverter across ground and neutral of the panel (which are bonded) shorting the inverter output. Got a fuse in line?

As I mentioned before if the transfer panel requires 240 VAC in to switch it won't work. What it looks like is a selection of individual transfer switches, one per circuit half on one leg half on the other. That would be best.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

Cariboocoot wrote: »

As I mentioned before if the transfer panel requires 240 VAC in to switch it won't work. What it looks like is a selection of individual transfer switches, one per circuit half on one leg half on the other. That would be best.

The engineer at the manufacturers facility assured me I could operate each buss individually with 120V.
All the 240 L14-30R plug does is supply 120 to each of the two buses. No relays, no electronics.

ggunn

Re: Solar Dilemma

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

1). Continuity between Neutral and Ground (No)

3). Voltage between Hot and Neutral (120)

5). Voltage between Hot and Ground (120)

How can that be?

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar Dilemma

Can't.
In order for there to be 120 VAC between Hot and Ground there must be bond between Ground and Neutral. Without an N-G bond Ground should read zero Volts in reference to any other point. If it doesn't, there's something odd with the wiring.

BB.

Re: Solar Dilemma

When measuring for voltage between Neutral and Ground; Hot and Ground, etc... You should get a 4 watt Christmas light and connect between H-G and N-G and then measure the voltage.

If the inverter has no N=G connection... The Christmas light will not light. If there is a N=G connection, the H-G will light and N-G will not (note, this inverter may have a GFI outlet--so the GFI should trip if there is a H-G connection and may trip if there is a N-G connection at the AC outlet).

Just using a standard digital meter will not draw enough current to show if there is a "hard ground" connection or not.

If this is a MSW inverter--Then, most likely, both H-G and N-G will dimly light the Christmas light (and/or trip the GFI).

-Bill

NorthGuy

Re: Solar Dilemma

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

However, when this adapter plug was plugged in and the inverter powered up, it hummed and did not work properly.

My guess is that you connected inverter to one side and tested the other side.

During the test, would a load connected directly to the inverter work?

Did the manufacterer tell you this:

Is there any Neutral-Ground bond inside the switch?
These little transwer switches, do they switch only a hot wire or the ground wire too?

BB.

Re: Solar Dilemma

My (older/cheaper) transfer panel only transfers the "Hot" leads.

If this was a genset, then it would work find if the generator was ~3.5 kW or less--They generally "float" the AC H/H/N leads. Carrying the green wire through won't hurt anything.

And with gensets >~3.5 kW, a person should go inside the generator electrical box and find the N=G bond and remove it. Then connect as normal to the transfer switch.

The same thing would be done with a TSW inverter (find/lift the N=G connection).

And with MSW (Modified Square Wave inverters), these are not really suitible for use to supply emergency backup power to a home (they should not ever have a grounded AC Neutral bond--This makes both +/- terminals of the battery bank "hot" with respect to ground).

Now--With small gensets that have GFI outlets--Do they bond N=G inside the Genset to make the GFI operate correctly?

If there is a GFI outlet, I would remove the GFI outlet and wire the transfer switch directly to the inverter (or generator) wiring. And lift then N=G bond if present inside the inverter (genset). The home will already have a N=G bond (typically the main panel) already.

-Bill

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

ggunn wrote: »

How can that be?

I made a mistake. I reversed the Hot and Neutral blades in my thinking. Hot is the smaller blade. Neutral is the larger blade (5-15P)

I think it's correct now.

1). Continuity between Neutral and Ground (Yes)
2). Continuity between Hot and Ground (No)
3). Voltage between Hot and Neutral (120)
4). Voltage between Neutral and Ground (Zero)
5). Voltage between Hot and Ground (120)

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar Dilemma

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

I made a mistake. I reversed the Hot and Neutral blades in my thinking. Hot is the smaller blade. Neutral is the larger blade (5-15P)

I think it's correct now.

1). Continuity between Neutral and Ground (Yes)
2). Continuity between Hot and Ground (No)
3). Voltage between Hot and Neutral (120)
4). Voltage between Neutral and Ground (Zero)
5). Voltage between Hot and Ground (120)

That is exactly right.

KnowledgeSponge

Re: Solar Dilemma

NorthGuy wrote: »

My guess is that you connected inverter to one side and tested the other side.

During the test, would a load connected directly to the inverter work?

Did the manufacterer tell you this:

Is there any Neutral-Ground bond inside the switch?
These little transwer switches, do they switch only a hot wire or the ground wire too?

I'll have to call back to ask that specific question tomorrow.