Settings double check on new system

kd7irm

Morning folks, just going over the settings of my new system and found some errors that I may have made, would like anyone to read over my new settings and see if you have any suggestions or comments or if I've made errors in my thinking. Thanks in advance for your help.

System-
8-220amphr Crown 6volts (24volts @ 440ah), interconnected and connected to a Outback VFX3424 with 4-00 cable. Epanel and mate. Outback MX60 being feed by 36 Photowatt 55watt, and 4 35 watt panels for a total array wattage of 2120 watts, but these panels are old and really put out about 1680 watts on a good day. Have a 17kh gen set connected as well.

Settings-
Mx60 and fx- Absorb 29v, float 27v, and eq 31volts all per Crown specs.

Mx60- Charge @60 amps max. Absorb time min @ 1hr and max @4hrs. End amps at 13 (3amps for every 100 ah of system capacity per crown, 3x4.4=13.2) auto eq @30 days for 3 hours. (Mx manual says default end amps setting is 00 and is not needed for most systems, so should I use it or not? Are the batteries being cooked going to zero amps, and if so are they cooking when the vfx charges them? and it has no end amp setting choice at all!?

VFX- charge @17AmpsAc (crown spec is 10-20% of system ah input amps dc, so 440ah @20% is 88amps dc, 17ax120v=2040w/24v=85amps DC) for 2hrs and then float. EQ for 3 hours. (No option for end amps on the VFX, so why is there one on the mx?) why not one on the VFX? LBCO @24volts

When charging from vfx with almost no load and panels disconnected, it takes about 30-45 min of bulk before it starts the absorb, then after about 1.5 hours its within about 5-10amps at 29volts. So I kind of loosely used this infor to set times on the vfx and mx.

The first mistake I found was my vfx charge amps set at 20aac. 20x120=2400/24=100amps = too much. Had just done simple 20x2.5=50 amps, like I used to do for my old 48 volt system, error!

Again any comments of suggestions are welcome.
Thanks

vtmaps

Re: Settings double check on new system

kd7irm wrote: »

Mx manual says default end amps setting is 00 and is not needed for most systems, so should I use it or not? Are the batteries being cooked going to zero amps, and if so are they cooking when the vfx charges them? and it has no end amp setting choice at all!?

The MX will not go to zero end amps. When you set end amps to 0, the MX just uses a timer.

As far as your other settings... you are following the manufacturers recommendations. If your SG indicates 100% SOC, everything is OK.

--vtMaps

Vic

Re: Settings double check on new system

'Morning,

Regarding the exact voltage settings, using the exact settings from Crown is a great place to start.

On the End Amps on the MX, in order for EA to be used, the Min time should be set to 000 mins, otherwise the EA setting will be ignored.

Hope that you have a Hydrometer, which will allow you to actually monitor the SG and know how well you are recharging the batts.

Believe that your estimate of how to set the Inverter's charge current is correct.

Often, on off-grid systems, the inverter is run from a genset only to Bulk the batteries, and perhaps a bit into Absorb, but PV is used to finish the charge. This is probably why these Inverters lack an EA setting.

More later, BTW, had guessed that your name is George, and that you are a Ham (??) Vic

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

Thanks guys, yes I have a hydrometer. Have not checked as I've not had time to yet, system only a week or so old, but need to very soon. Should have already. Hey Vic, yes I am a ham and your guess is correct that my name is George, are you a ham as well?

On a side note, if the end amps are at zero and timers are at max it could get to zero input amps right? Or is there some kind of safety to switch to float at some internal amp set point before zero or does it just keep on absorbing at a few amps and bar it from going to zero but go to the max time set. This seems like a grey area in the manual. On the mx you can set the max at 4 hours and the min at 3hrs50min, and as I understand it a timer counts up as it bulks and it starts counting down when it hits absorb, so if it took over 4 hours to bulk and you had the min set at 3hrs50min, it seems like it the mid day full sun it could absorb faster than that min and then what? Would it absorb to 0 amps and harm the batteries? Not trying to not use SG, just curious about these areas that seem grey so to speak. I'm sure I'm missing something.

Vic

Re: Settings double check on new system

Hey George,

Yep am also a Ham -- K6IC. Nice to see you here.

Setting the MX EA to 00 means that the timers will be used. I have only used EA on the MXes here. But, my understanding is that with both Min and Max times set, that the Min time will always be the Minimum time for an Absorb, and if the Bulk happens to take longer than this Min time, then the Absorb time will equal Bulk time, unless the Max time is satisfied. In this case the Max time setting will be the length of Absorb. That is to say (as I understand it), that with EA at 00, the Absorb time will be equal to the Bulk time only if the Bulk time is more than Min time and less than Max time.

Others here who use Min AND Max time settings on the MX can tell us if this is correct. Also, there have been a number of revs to the FirmWare for the MX, which might have some effect on this behavior (??) ... dunno this.

Just be ceratin to use your Hydrometer to check SG of each cell. Number each cell of each battery with a unique number, and record these SGs for each cell in your battery Log Book, when the bank is fully charged. You have been at this for some time, so this is porbably what you have been doing in the past. Also, just to make sure, please be certain to rinse the Hydrometer several times after each SG measuring session, with real Distilled Water, and before each use if it has been days/weeks since it was last used. The internal rinsing helps reduce the sticky gunk that builds up on the guts of the Hydro, allowing air bubbles to stick to the float and tube, causing erronious readings (usually too high).

In my opinion the Hydrometer should have a glass tube and glass float, and have NO colors indicating SOC, but, rather, real numbers for SG readings.

More later, 73 GL, Vic

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

Hey guys thanks for the input, much appreciated!

A few weeks ago the old 2 cylinder china diesel 17kva gen set bit the dust. After lots of research and reading the "choosing a good generator" thread, I picked up a new Honda EU6500iS. Very very happy with this choice, very impressed with the genset. After two weeks without a working genset and two weeks of heavy clouds, the hours on the new one have added up quickly the last few days. Ran through a complete bulk, absorb cycle the first day then today a 3 hour eq cycle, they needed the stur after no full charge for two weeks.

On a side note, I filled me water tank today and found something I wasn't expecting. The pump is a 1/2 hp deep well 230v, was expecting a big surge and lots of load on the genset, but surge seemed short and only about 1800-2000va and then settled at about 450va, took the normal few hours to fill the tank but all seemed fine. Does that wattage seem normal?

Cariboocoot

Re: Settings double check on new system

kd7irm wrote: »

Hey guys thanks for the input, much appreciated!

A few weeks ago the old 2 cylinder china diesel 17kva gen set bit the dust. After lots of research and reading the "choosing a good generator" thread, I picked up a new Honda EU6500iS. Very very happy with this choice, very impressed with the genset. After two weeks without a working genset and two weeks of heavy clouds, the hours on the new one have added up quickly the last few days. Ran through a complete bulk, absorb cycle the first day then today a 3 hour eq cycle, they needed the stur after no full charge for two weeks.

On a side note, I filled me water tank today and found something I wasn't expecting. The pump is a 1/2 hp deep well 230v, was expecting a big surge and lots of load on the genset, but surge seemed short and only about 1800-2000va and then settled at about 450va, took the normal few hours to fill the tank but all seemed fine. Does that wattage seem normal?

Perfectly normal and very good. Obviously the pump doesn't have to work too hard. A 240 VAC pump will be more efficient than a 120 VAC one (for the same rated HP) and a submersible will not have to work as hard as an above-grounds for the same lift/flow/pressure.

One electrical horsepower is 746 Watts, so a 1/2 HP pump pulling 450 makes sense and the start-up is about 4X the running which is right in line with expectations too.

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Perfectly normal and very good. Obviously the pump doesn't have to work too hard. A 240 VAC pump will be more efficient than a 120 VAC one (for the same rated HP) and a submersible will not have to work as hard as an above-grounds for the same lift/flow/pressure.

One electrical horsepower is 746 Watts, so a 1/2 HP pump pulling 450 makes sense and the start-up is about 4X the running which is right in line with expectations too.

Thanks cabiboocoot!

Charging batteries, powering typical house loads and running well pump all at the same time pulls about 3700 to 4000va from the honda, but it purrs right along and rpm slows as the amps to the charger drop saving lots of fuel, love it! Love being able to use both the 110 and 240 volt at the same time, very well suited for this application. I do agree with you that a inverter generator is matched nicely in our solar setups.

vtmaps

Re: Settings double check on new system

kd7irm wrote: »

was expecting a big surge and lots of load on the genset, but surge seemed short and only about 1800-2000va and then settled at about 450va, took the normal few hours to fill the tank but all seemed fine.

Yes, it is a very nice and quiet genset. Do you run your pump with the eco-throttle turned on? --vtMaps

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

vtmaps wrote: »

Yes, it is a very nice and quiet genset. Do you run your pump with the eco-throttle turned on? --vtMaps

Yes I do, but was at first worried about the pump start surge and if the eco throttle would respond quik enough, so I tried starting and running it with it off first then again with the Eco throttle on, did not see any difference between the two. The eu6500 was able to respond to the start surge quick enuff to start the pump and then run it at its lowest idle, not sure if a smaller honda inverter would be able to respond to the surge as easily, but I'm guessing the 5000i would do it just as easily.

niel

Re: Settings double check on new system

welcome george,
i too am a ham, n3ghx, and we do have many more out there. keep in mind that when your pvs are pumping their power full blast through the mx60 that it is near a good charge rate. 60a/440a=13.6%. now if the charger in the vfx3424 also is active that it will also add to the charge current coming in from the pvs. you can stand more current to the batteries, but you must watch that it doesn't go too far. i'm not positive what they call for a max charge rate to the batteries, but i seem to recall 20% and somebody can correct me on this if they have the info for these batteries. now about 6% from the vfx would be .06 x 440a = 26.4a. this would bring the total roughly to 86.4a or 19.6%. keep in mind these are not ac amps, but dc amps. i believe the mx is programmable on its output current also, but i'm not sure what is required for that programming equipment wise or if the cc can do it on its own should you elect to take some off of it.

this can be good if there's any cloud cover, rains, snow, etc interfering with pv production as the added power fed from the grid to the batteries can top them off from what the solar failed to meet and the 6% rate of charge would be above the minimum we usually recommend for charging which is 5%.

Cariboocoot

Re: Settings double check on new system

Normally with an Outback system you use either the solar or the built-in charger, not both at once. There's no way for the system to know the combined current so battery max can be exceeded. It is possible to devise a work-around that shuts off solar with a relay activated by AC IN (gen on = solar off). Also remember that the FX's charging is shown in AC Amps, which is annoying and has to be converted to approximate DC Amps to make sense.

Niel is right about the max rate: for most flooded cells sustain 20% is enough of a peak current.

You can program current max in either/both but one doesn't know what the other is doing.

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

Morning guys, thanks for the reply, Yes on these batteries charge rate, per crown is 10% to 20%.

Great information and reminder about the charge controller and the inverter/charger not working together to know input amps to the batteries, I forget that sometimes, well most of the time.

I try to do any charging with the genset in the early morning, with pv amps very low and monitor closely, just a quick bulk and let the pv finish the absorb and float. If charging mid day for some emergency reason, I just flip the breaker on the Epanel coming from the pv until I shut down the generator and then the pv can take over if there is any, this time of year in AZ is hell for getting a full days sun with monsoons every afternoon .

Side question: is bonding the neutral to the ground inside the Epanel a good idea or not? When I installed it I placed a jumper from the neutral to the ground. Also the ground and neutral connections on the top of the vfx inverter are common respectively, so I only ran one ground and one common for both the incoming and outgoing ac on the vfx, will the cause any issues?

Cariboocoot

Re: Settings double check on new system

kd7irm wrote: »

Side question: is bonding the neutral to the ground inside the Epanel a good idea or not? When I installed it I placed a jumper from the neutral to the ground.

This would depend on whether or not there are any other N-G bonds in the system. It's "one only", but it doesn't matter too much where that one is.

Also the ground and neutral connections on the top of the vfx inverter are common respectively, so I only ran one ground and one common for both the incoming and outgoing ac on the vfx, will the cause any issues?

When wired this way the hot line to the VFX (AC IN) will carry current for the loads and the charger. The hot line from the VFX (AC OUT) will carry the current for just the loads. The neutral line on the AC IN will carry the current for just the charger; the neutral line for the loads will be connected elsewhere (service box). When AC IN is not active the full power of the inverter will be carried on the hot line on AC OUT and the neutral on AC IN. So long as the hot line on AC IN is large enough to carry both currents it will work.

I'd wonder why you wired it this way, as it is likely to cause confusion.

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

I'd wonder why you wired it this way, as it is likely to cause confusion.

I basically followed the directions included with the Epanel, it explained that the ac in and ac out common on the vfx are common and running the extra wire is not necessarily necessary, so I didn't. Everything seems fine but I would like to insure that when charging with loads that the vfx can control/limit the total amps from the genset and change current to the charger and loads to balance the total to my preset, this is to insure I'm not overloading one of the legs on the genset. If I can be sure I can truly limit the draw from the genset via vfx I can tweak the settings to use the available amps from the honda more efficiently.

I may not be understanding it correctly but it seems that some of the load is being supported before the vfx, I can see about a 400 to 500 VA difference between what the total the vfx is asking for and what the imonitor on the honda is telling me its sending, maybe line loss? Not sure but it's only about 40 feet from the two with 10/3 soow.

niel

Re: Settings double check on new system

being i believe you have grid power there, the service breaker panel is usually the point that the neutral and ground get bonded at and a ground lead off to a ground rod. if tied elsewhere this can create problems and even ground loops.

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

niel wrote: »

being i believe you have grid power there, the service breaker panel is usually the point that the neutral and ground get bonded at and a ground lead off to a ground rod. if tied elsewhere this can create problems and even ground loops.

Total off grid. No grid tie.

Cariboocoot

Re: Settings double check on new system

When the inverter is in charge mode it doesn't do anything with the loads; it operates as a battery charger and the loads are supplied by the same AC source that powers the charging.

The only thing that does affect it is the programmed AC IN current limit, which tells the inverter when to drop the generator to prevent overloading it.

So you have an AC IN limit of, say, 12 Amps.
Maximum charging current set at, say, 5 Amps (it's in AC, not DC :roll: ).
Honda supplies up to 12 Amps, not knowing/caring where that current goes.
If the battery demands less than 5 Amps for charging, more is available for loads.
If the loads demand more than the 7 Amps difference, battery charging is reduced.
If the load demand increases suddenly and the inverter can't adjust in time the generator will be dropped as the 12 Amp input limit is exceeded.

Okay so far?

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

Ok I think,
the way I have it set up and the way I understand it, in the vfx settings ive set charging current at 17amps ac and generator max at 17amps ac. So that if there are not loads then the full 17 amps goes into charging but when the loads increase the charging current drops, but the max the vfx pulls from the genset it the 17 amps. The honda will do 22.9 on that outlet, but some of that is shared with one leg of the 240v outlet. Leaving five amps for the operation of the pump(on that leg, the other leg gets 22.9 available to it as well at the same time)

I think I'm on the same page now:)

I'm afraid that the way I wired it the vfx does not control the total to the loads, Say if loads wanted more than my preset of 17 it would allow the loads to pull it from the genset and over load it? That's what im afraid of it doing.

Cariboocoot

Re: Settings double check on new system

Okay, first of all 17 Amps AC on the charger is about 85 Amps DC to the batteries. That's a lot more than you probably need to charge 440 Amp hours worth. You could dial that back I think.

17 Amps on the AC IN does mean that all current going in to the VFX regardless of what it is used for is limited to that; more will drop the generator. The gen shouldn't suffer from overload because it is capable of >20 Amps. If the loads ramp up slowly to 17 Amps the VFX will decrease the charge current to keep the total draw below the maximum rating. if the load go up suddenly (like a big motor coming on) the input current could momentarily jump above the 17 Amp limit causing it to drop the gen and go to invert. It should not overload the gen. It will then "re-detect" Voltage on AC IN and sync up again, switch back to charger mode. Note that if the load are over the 17 Amp limit it will do this over and over and you've got to change something.

In no way does the VFX control the current to the loads. It merely switches to invert mode if the total exceeds the programmed input maximum.

niel

Re: Settings double check on new system

my bad as it isn't gt, but a genny will mimic the grid as far as charging goes.

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

Ok cool, I think I understand now and what I thought I understood was correct, . Thanks cariboocoot!

I have the 17 amp charge set just to save some genset time by charging them a little quicker. What amp setting would you recommend to safely charge while limiting gen time?
Thanks in advance!

kd7irm

Re: Settings double check on new system

niel wrote: »

my bad as it isn't gt, but a genny will mimic the grid as far as charging goes.

No worries niel

Cariboocoot

Re: Settings double check on new system

kd7irm wrote: »

Ok cool, I think I understand now and what I thought I understood was correct, . Thanks cariboocoot!

I have the 17 amp charge set just to save some genset time by charging them a little quicker. What amp setting would you recommend to safely charge while limiting gen time?
Thanks in advance!

I would turn it down to 13, which would be roughly 65 Amps DC or about 15% on your 440 Amp hours. The actual charge rate will fall off from their fairly quickly, especially if the batteries are not deeply discharged.

You can watch the charging Amps on your MATE and see what happens with it. Look for a "plateau" rate; the current it spends the most time at. You typically see a quick drop in current from a high rate, followed by a slower drop, followed by even slower drop. The first change indicates a waste of charging power, the second is where most of the action is being done, and the third will be into Absorb stage and looking for End Amps. Unfortunately the VFX does not have an EA setting.

BTW, one 'trick' that can be done to guard against too much current from combined solar & gen input is to limit both to 10%, knowing the batteries can take 20% if both sources are connected and outputting their maximum.

vtmaps

Re: Settings double check on new system

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Normally with an Outback system you use either the solar or the built-in charger, not both at once. There's no way for the system to know the combined current so battery max can be exceeded.
<snip>
You can program current max in either/both but one doesn't know what the other is doing.

Under some circumstances that is true. However if you have Outback's flexnet DC battery monitor you can limit the maximum current to the batteries when the VFX and the FX are both charging.

The way it works is that the FX has a global current setting and it will reduce its charging current if other sources are charging the batteries. Too bad the VFX does not also have a global current setting... I would rather have the system reduce the current from the generator than reduce the current from the solar.

read more: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=152925#post152925

--vtMaps

Cariboocoot

Re: Settings double check on new system

vtmaps wrote: »

Under some circumstances that is true. However if you have Outback's flexnet DC battery monitor you can limit the maximum current to the batteries when the VFX and the FX are both charging.

The way it works is that the FX has a global current setting and it will reduce its charging current if other sources are charging the batteries. Too bad the VFX does not also have a global current setting... I would rather have the system reduce the current from the generator than reduce the current from the solar.

read more: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=152925#post152925

--vtMaps

But the OP does not have the Flexnet and probably doesn't want to shell out $300 and rewire the system in order to get this capability.

Really when they designed the FX series they had no notion someone would want to charge from both at the same time; the idea was "solar first, gen if necessary".

People keep coming up with applications the engineers never thought of, and as soon as the engineers have a "solution" someone else comes up with a new "problem".

Gotta keep 'em thinking, eh?

kd7irm

Update and info needed...

 After a cell melt down in the crown batteries and resulting issues and now error warnings on the Honda eu6500, I have gone to a Deka 95-25 1140 AH (8hr rate) 24 volt battery pack as a replacement and a champion (100210) 3800/4750 watt generator until the Honda is fixed. Solar set up is working very nicely and the generator powers our 230 volt 1/2 horse well pump perfectly for storage in our tank. But....

 When I connect the generator to the inverter and test it's ability to provide power/charge I find a few issues. 

Now first off off I have limited the gen limit setting to 15 amps, to be on the safe side and limited charge amps to 8. I also have experimented with additional lower amp settings but the results are the same.

Things start off smoothly but then randomly it seems I hear a huge draw on the generator and a spike in battery volts with coresponding "batt full" display on the outback solar charge controller. The mate display seems not to change, at least that I've noticed while trying to reach the generator breaker quickly to shut its power flow down. The outback inverter never drops the gen. 

I know now I need more amps to charge the batteries fully, I'm not concerned with that now as much as the issue with the wild amp draw. The system seems to be doing a good job of keeping the batteries full daily so I would only need to connect the gen on heavy watt use days like laundry and vacuum day or during ongoing days with little or no sunshine to provide power. 

Any my ideas on what or why this wild amp draw may be happening? 

Vic

Hi again George,  I think it is (?),

So,  you still have a single VFX 3424 (is that the number?) ?  If so,  you must have the Autotransformer?

The Honda EU6500isa in use at one site here,  is a very early one.  It has difficulty handling the SW+ 5548 inverter pair,  as each inverter,  when charging batteries is asynchronous in yanking AC current from the generator.   This,  plus,  all of these Hybrid inverter/chargers are Bidirectional,  and seem to dump some current into the genset via the AC input,   sometimes,  in order to try to regulate charge voltage.   Having significant input to the battery from RE sources,  like Solar seems to make this issue worse.

In any event,  with the Xantrex sw and SW+ inverters,  this current dump into the ACinput  side of the inverter/chargers,  can easily yank the EU genset out of voltage regulation.  So much so,  that the AC input voltage rises above the Hi AC Vin limit  --  the inverter then DROPS the genset's AC input,   and again begins re-qualifying it for 30 - 40 seconds,  and the process begins,   yet again.

The above only happens when the in a voltage-regulating charge stage,  like Absorb.

Your OB 3424 is,  of course a bit of a different animal,  and you may not be seeing this exact scenario,  but,  perhaps there are some similarities.

These EU gensets  have relatively high impedance outputs (for lack of a better word).  A larger genset with the traditional Alternator,  seems un phased by this action of the 5548s.   More modern inverter/chargers seem to not upset the recent EU 6500 and EU 7000s  --  at least there have not been reports of this behavior on this site when using EU gensets with a Schneider XW inverter/charger.  Perhaps the voltage regulation on the more modern EU gensets has improved,  or perhaps the way recent inverters handle generator AC input has improved.

Just FWIW.  73,   Vic