Newbie

System

Hi Guys,

I am a newbie to all this... I want to invest into a windmill or solar panels..
I live in Canada and in the city of Toronto.. I have a pretty big backyard but dont know if a windmill could go in my backyard if its really tall.... I can put it on my roof... my question is...

- which would give me more power and save me more $$$ in my bills in the long run?

- Can someone please point me to some documentation or provide me high level information on how solar panels work from an installation stand point.
ex.. panels connect to a battery that then connects to my fuse box??? also for the windmill is that the way they hook up?

What do you guys think?

Thanks and this is a GREAT site

BB.

Re: Newbie

Short answer, probably none of these system will save you any money on your electric bill...

Solar PV electricity (solar panels) and Grid Tied connected Inverter is the a good source of power... But after all is said and done, it will cost you more than $0.25 per kWhr assuming nothing breaks for 25 years (excluding gov. rebates). Low maintenance, easy to debug/fix problems. The only "wear" part is the inverter which should be good for well over 10 years (an inverter is basically equivalent to a computer power supply in parts and design). And they are not too expensive to replace--if or when it is needed (a 3kW inverter is around $2,000)

Wind--unless you live in an area with very good wind (almost too windy to every enjoy the outdoors), they will not generate that much power, many are noisy, and fail quite often (if there is one for home use that will last more than 5 years without maintenance--crane and rebuilding--I would be surprised). Yes, it costs less than Solar PV panels to install--but unpredictable output (local wind conditions) and mechanical/design issues/maintenance costs make a successful project a roll of the dice.

And you will never want to mount a wind turbine to your home--the noise transfer from the turbine will drive you nuts, and it may shake your structure apart--especially in storms.

Lastly, wind turbines should only be installed in a location where if the tower failed or the blades/turbine fell off the tower, it will not hurt anyone underneath (ideally, including you and your family).

It is a constant refrain here that you spend your money in this order, Conservation (insulation, lighting, energy star equipment, double pane windows, switch from electric heating devices to natural gas or propane, etc.), Conservation again (along with behavioral modification to get kids to turn off lights), solar thermal/hot water, solar panels, then wind, and finally off-grid.

For Solar Grid tie and off-grid--here is a quick explanation from Xantrex (and inverter mfg.). For Wind, you can basically remove the solar panels and connect the wind turbine instead (or in addition for charging your off-grid battery bank).

For solar thermal, take a look at this site www.solarroofs.com for a nice self-installed kit type solution. There are a few other threads here on solar thermal/heating with some links to really nice projects done by others. Solar thermal is nice because it costs much less to install and the collectors are smaller. The down side is complexity and maintenance as there are lots of pumps, tanks, risk of freezing, air locks, leaks, etc.

In the end, before you start any of these projects, you have to conserve (to get the size of your solar installation down, and save installation costs) and know how much power/heat/etc. you need for your home (again, so you do not oversize the system and waste money).

Any of these solar RE systems will work well and give you useful power.

Most of us here try to steer folks away from wind power--except as a last resort (Alaska north slope in winter where there is no sun).

If you want to see the other side of the wind issue--there is an interesting site by owners of SkyStream wind turbines. SkyStream has been getting lots of press and these folks have installed and are using the equipment. Lots of pictures and some information.

Be aware, many of the photos show the turbine not much higher than the surrounding buildings and trees. Normally, the turbine should be, at least, 30 feet (10 meters) above any (up wind, prevailing direction) obstructions. Turbulence and lack of steady wind will kill the output of any turbine. There are no turbines that work well with low wind speeds... You will find many mfg. advertise that they begin producing power at 6mph... But that is 1 watt--not even enough power for a flashlight. And most do not even begin to reach their rated power until around 25 mph winds. And much above that, they have to shut down to protect themselves.

Yes, there are people happy with wind--but you will not find too much "love" for them here.

-Bill

System2

Re: Newbie

so pretty much both are not good for me

BB.

Re: Newbie

B'

Not trying to burst your bubble that quickly... I was trying to level set your expectations. And, again, whether or not something will work for you depends on your location and needs.

For me, flat rate residential power is $0.12 per kWhr... But if I use a lot of power (>900 kWhrs per month) it goes up to $0.36 per kWhr or so...

My Grid Tied solar system is ~$0.25 per kWhr ($cost/25 years of power). With California rebates and federal tax credits, it is down to $0.15 per kWhr)...

So, I am close to breaking even at baseline rates (<300kWhrs per month--which I easily am under), and if I decide to install A/C or use an electric vehicle, I can use my extra solar power to keep my bill from going into the 3x expensive power tariff (we have the remenants of Pres. Jimmy Carter's power policy still in place--the more power you use, the more you get charged--the opposite of every free market/capitalist system out there).

I am thinking of A/C and/or an electric car. And I installed this system as a bet that California will do something incredibly idiotic over the next few years and kill us with high taxes and fuel/utility bills (they brought us the 2000 summer blackouts, Enron and a $25,000,000,000 40 year bond to pay for 1 summer's worth of over inflated electrical charges; with their last set of regulations).

You have hydro up there--and if you have reliable and cheap power, then solar/wind/etc. home generated power is going to have a very difficult time competing. If, you believe power costs will go way up, or you have times with long power outages (ice storms, summer blackouts, etc.) a solar based emergency power system (with generator backup) and/or even a hybrid off-grid/grid tied system may make sense for you.

It really depends on your needs and what you are looking for...

In the end, my 3kW system is supplying over 100% of my yearly electric power bill (my bill is $5.50 per month, every month) and I have extra "power' in the bank where I could use ~250 kWhrs per month for other uses (that EV or A/C). But, it does not come cheap.

Since you are in cold weather, a solar thermal system may be a good return on your money for you (assuming your home is very well insulated). You could go with a hot air system (only heats during the day) as a start, or look at some of the home installed/made solar hot water system in other threads here. Will especially look good if you are on electric heat or fuel oil now.

-Bill

System2

Re: Newbie

Thanks Bill i agree on what you are saying... I Appreciate it... I will start by looking at my bills and seeing how much we spend and compare if i did go with a solar panel or water system heating..

Thanks agian