washing machine

petertearaipetertearai Solar Expert Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭
Considering a bosch washing machine . Bosch say they are not designed for off grid. What makes are ok on off grid.
Response from bosch nz as follows.

From: Whitley, Matthew (NZ/SM-SMC)
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 8:31 AM
To: AKL-BSHNZ-AS-Support (Auckland AKL)
Subject: RE: New Customer Query for HN NZ Botany Downs Whitegoods ID: [119317]

Hiya,

We will never advise running any of our products on alternative power supplies as they are not designed for this.

Kind regards,

Matthew Whitley
National After Sales Service Manager
Phone +64 9 477 2880
Mobile +64 27 670 0107
2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . Mate 3. victron battery monitor . 24 volts  in 2 volt Shoto lead carbon extreme batterys. off grid  holiday home 

Comments

  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Me thinks they are covering their butts re warranty issues, know little of off-grid systems, and probably assume off grid means improper voltages and improper waveforms, as in MSW. Rather than getting into where and why problems may crop up, they just give a quick and easy blanket "NO"!
    In reality, if you have a good quality PSW inverter, powerful enough to handle anything the washer can throw at it, and a battery bank powerful enough to supply whatever the inverter demands of it, you should have no problems. However it appears Bosh will use your off grid use as an excuse to reject any warranty claims. I'm not impressed with their response to your question, but obviously they can give whatever answers they please.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    i would pick at him for more answers as to why it is not suitable for off grid. not only could a properly rated pure sine wave inverter handle the washer, but many generators are capable of running the machine too all with quality equaling and most times better than the grid.
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    If you have a pure sine inverter, there's no difference with grid.

    If you have MSW, it can damage the motor.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Probably the electronic controls won't work properly on MSW. The motor may just 'complain' and have a shortened life span. The more complex the unit, the less likely it is to accept MSW input.

    But their blanket "won't work off grid" declaration is pure hogwash and betrays ignorance on the part of the company.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    If you have a pure sine inverter, there's no difference with grid.

    If you have MSW, it can damage the motor.

    fine, then if that's their beef then they should state msw inverters void the warranty rather than, "it won't work off grid", because nearly everyone here would have argument with that statement.
  • peakbaggerpeakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Staber washing mahcines used to be the standard off grid washing machine and folks succesfully used them on MSW inverters. Other washing machines were not as successful. The editors of Home Power Magazine used to talk abou the "list" they maintained of what appliacnes worked off grid, I think they stopped keeping track after PSW inverters became affordable.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,304 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Generators also can cause big problems for processor based appliances. Lack of surge protection. It is a long list and the offgrid portion of appliance owners is small. Kind of makes sense that Bosch might take this approach.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • petertearaipetertearai Solar Expert Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Thanks for your reply's. I did ask about a pure sine wave inverter, But they may well be covering their buts re warranty. Yes in a country situation the inverter would probably be a better cleaner power. People in my area with grid power have brown out and blackouts, normally a number per year. The only loss of power i have had in 7 or so years is when I installed new batterys. The switch over part of the upgrade only taking about 20 minutes.
    2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . Mate 3. victron battery monitor . 24 volts  in 2 volt Shoto lead carbon extreme batterys. off grid  holiday home 
  • alyazalyaz Solar Expert Posts: 114 ✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Our friends up the road have a Bosch washer and dryer. They have had them for the past three years with no issues at all. There is no grid power here on island and their outback system/kubota diesel and the Bosch washer/dryer work harmoniously.
    3.3 kW solar.  3 Midnite Solar controllers; 5 lightening suppressors.  Magnum’s inverter; auto gen start, BMK.  Davidson 2 v FLA’s - 24v bank.  Perkins diesel gen.
  • petertearaipetertearai Solar Expert Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Thanks . On looking up the specs for most front loaders they so far seem to be around 2200 watts, so my 1800 watt xantrex ps inverter wont do, it may be the water heating that has the 2200 watts. Apparently some machines have hot and cold inlets . I will need to do more homework.
    2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . Mate 3. victron battery monitor . 24 volts  in 2 volt Shoto lead carbon extreme batterys. off grid  holiday home 
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine
    Thanks . On looking up the specs for most front loaders they so far seem to be around 2200 watts, so my 1800 watt xantrex ps inverter wont do, it may be the water heating that has the 2200 watts. Apparently some machines have hot and cold inlets . I will need to do more homework.

    2200 watts is HUGE for any domestic washing machine, but for a front loader, it's nothing short of obscene! It must be for the in-washer water heater or steam generator, both of which are unnecessary and extravagant (Lacking restraint in spending money and using resources.) and very wasteful in so many ways. But hey, they put bonus money in retailers pockets.
    My Sears front loader uses roughly 200 watts in wash mode, and then skyrockets all the way up to 460 watts in hi-spin mode! The little Morningstar pure sine 300 watt inverter has no trouble running it in wash mode, but does shut down on overload when the washer goes to spin. My xantrex pure sine 1800/12 on the other hand, loads down with the washer in spin mode about the same as the roof of my house loads down when a crow lands on it. :D
  • petertearaipetertearai Solar Expert Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Thanks Wayne. Sounds like I may find a washer that my 1800 watt xantrex ps will run. Someone suggested an Asko, but they are very expensive. ( maybe you get what you pay for). The energy star ratings are not straight forward as they don't mention the water heated by the machine or the house supply. Looked at the Asko site and cant find the rated watts.
    2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . Mate 3. victron battery monitor . 24 volts  in 2 volt Shoto lead carbon extreme batterys. off grid  holiday home 
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    "You get what you pay for" is a well warn phrase. Sometimes it applies, but through the years, I've learned it can also be used to help move highly overpriced junk. Too often we learn the true quality of an item not from the sales team, but through our own experience as users. Too often, we are so to speak, purchasing unseen, a pig in a bag. I got lucky, very lucky with my Sears front loader. My Uncle purchased a similar looking Sears front loader, obviously made by a different manufacturer than mine was, and he hates it. I've seen it in operation, and I'd hate it too! But would it run on my 1800/12 inverter? It sure would! So where does all that leave us as consumers?
    By the way, my washer's electrical tag states "12 amp". In reality it uses half that even less under heaviest load, which is in hi-spin. So even those ratings cannot be trusted! Unless a neighbor or friend has one we can check out while it's in operation - - we're purchasing blind.
  • SCharlesSCharles Solar Expert Posts: 123 ✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    We are just about to the 3-year point on our Staber. We run it off our PV-power through an Outback inverter. When we first bought it, we were using a Trace modified sine wave inverter, and the machine did just fine, no issues.

    I haven't owned any other make or model of washer, so I cannot give a comparison with the Staber. I can say that the water and electrical usage are well below those of the other makes/models I checked out prior to buying the Staber.
  • SkippySkippy Solar Expert Posts: 308 ✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Speaking of blanket answers, when I purchased my on demand water heater (for backup use) , before purchasing, I asked the dealer "can you run the tempra 12 water heater on a 100 amp service ? " his answer was a definate "NO." I then went into great detail about how my washing machine draws this much power, my oven draws this much power, and my heat pump draws this much power . . I then asked him again, "can I run this on my service ? " and he replied - "since you know more than the average person, yes, it will run on a 100 amp service . . it's just that most people would start the washing machine to do a load of laundry , turn on the oven to make dinner, turn up the heat to heat up the house, and then step into the shower for a nice hot shower - so for them, it won't work ".

    Listen to the experts . . but which ones are the experts ? :D
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 45 MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine
    Skippy wrote: »
    "can I run this on my service ?
    It is all in how you ask the question, all right. :-)

    If you look at the actual Siibel documentation, you find that their Tech Data does not require 200A service until you get to the Tempra 24. Which makes perfect sense, since in a 240 volt installation that model will pull exactly 100A.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • silvertopsilvertop Solar Expert Posts: 155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    A word of caution with Staber; we had one back in the 90's, and unless the design has changed, if you have any loose change or anything small in your pockets, it can become lodged in the rubber hose fitting before the pump. The whole machine would have to be taken apart to get it out and with children in the household, this is a given. Would never own one again.

    We currently have a Frigidaire Affinity front loader that only pulls 660 watts in high spin, and it is run on a Cotek 1500 watt PSW inverter while the rest of the house including the fridge is running. No problem.
  • MarkPMarkP Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Regarding Bosch appliances: A year ago or so I replaced my top loading builder grade washer and dryer load center with a Bosch front loading washer and dryer set that fit perfectly in the space required, being a smaller size. I love them. I then found a larger Bosch front load washer used for $100 because the previous owner said it had taken to sometimes not doing the final spin. He was right but I am always able to get the final rinse by running a "Refresh" cycle (wets stuff down and spins it dry). I love it. I shipped it to the wilds of Puna on the Big Island of Hawaii where it runs flawlessly on my 2,700 watt PSW APC SmartUPS 3000 as long as I let the UPS do all the work. I have a small Honda EU1000i that is not strong enough and when I try to run the little Honda through the UPS to power the washer it lags so badly that the UPS declares a power failure and takes over. Of course at that point the little Honda revs up just fine, the UPS sees good power again and switches back to the Honda, the Honda bogs down again, and it will go on like that indefinitely with the switches in the UPS clunking away, the Honda revving and bogging down, and the lights getting brighter and dimmer on a 1-second cycle. Meanwhile the Bosch Nexxt washer just keeps on truckin' except that rarely I have to run the refresh cycle to get that last spin done.

    Somewhere in there shortly after I bought the new set of washer and dryer for my place back in civilization, I spotted a Bosch Aquastar 1600HP tankless water heater for cheap at Lowes. The H means it has a little hydrogenerator to provide the electricity for the controls to run on and the P means it runs on propane. Exactly what I needed! And its a Bosch! Score! I kinda wondered why it was marked down to 1/3 price and put out front with the other orphans. Well the reviews on it were very mixed. A few said it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Many said they had trouble getting it running properly and Bosch customer service was no help. Well, that could be because most people are helpless cripples when it came to installing their own stuff. Not me!

    Long story short it came out of the box broken. The little gray electronic control box was defective. The flame sensor wouldn't sense flame. I (licensed Proff. Eng.) could see it. The girl behind the counter at Hilo Propane said "Oh. A Bosch. It's the control box". Michael of Michael's Repair, the professional installer I contacted at the insistence of Bosch customer service could see it. Bosch would not send me a new box. Because I am foolish and because it would cost me just as much to junk it and go with another unit, I went ahead and spent $208 to buy the part from Michael. Yup, that's right. Michael's Repair is the outfit that stocks their parts in Hawaii, but no, they wouldn't trust him unless he made a personal visit which I would have had to pay him for and which might still have resulted in my having to buy my own parts. Michael knew all this. You should have heard him coaching me before I talked with Bosch, like an attorney prepping a crack whore that was going to testify against the mayor. Bought the part, it works like a charm, and I love it.

    Meanwhile back in civilization someone in my household managed to break a little plastic nub off of the plastic handle on the door to the washer, probably trying to open the door while it was still locked. Fortunately I had bought the extended warranty. Or so I thought. I took the door apart to make sure I knew what part to ask for and while I was in there I "temporarily" fixed the handle by gluing the nub back on. I ordered the parts. They did not include the part I needed and in fact did not look at all familiar, that is until I got to the Big Island and saw the latch on the older machine. Bosch service has no idea I have the other machine. Just dumb luck. Luck on my part in case I ever need those parts. Dumb on their part since they have once again failed to honor their warranty obligations. Well, I am going to give them another go on the new washer but it looks to be an uphill struggle. They don't send just the part that broke, which I had to identify by cruising the appliance parts sites on the net. They do list the whole door but won't send it because it costs too much. I have to have a tech come out and see for himself. Fortunately they will pay for all that supposedly.

    Love Bosch appliances but you are on your own when it comes to service.

    I posted already about the washer/UPS/EU1000i. Basically the EU1000i can handle 800 watts, the washer draws 500 or so watts, there's a few lights on, and the UPS is also feeding off it to charge the batteries. It does OK until the spin but then it is just too much for the little guy.
    15 Panels (about 3,000 watts), Schneider Conext 60-150 MPPT Charge Controller, Schneider Conext 4048 Inverter, 8 x 6-volt Costco GC-2 Batteries.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Did you run the 1000i with ECO in the OFF position? If Not, give it a try , you may have better success as the electronics lag a bit when needed to go full tilt...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
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    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: washing machine
    MarkP wrote: »
    Basically the EU1000i can handle 800 watts, the washer draws 500 or so watts, there's a few lights on, and the UPS is also feeding off it to charge the batteries. It does OK until the spin but then it is just too much for the little guy.

    I assume that you have turned off the eco throttle as per Westbranch's suggestion.

    There may be a startup surge that the honda can't handle even with the eco-throttle off, but your generator ought to be able to pick up the load once the machine has started:
    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=162022#post162022

    If your honda can't handle a 500 watt load, it may be because the power factor of the washer is too low. You may need more than 800 VA to run the washer. Do you have a kill-a-watt?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • MarkPMarkP Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Yes I turned the eco throttle off. No, I don't have a kill-a-watt, although I do know someone who does. It would be interesting to see the load on the generator vs the load at the washer plug. That would tell me how much the UPS is consuming either as loss or from battery charging. I assume though that you are curious about the peak load and power factor imposed by the washer. I got the 500 watt figure while spinning because there are load LEDs on the UPS.

    The UPS keeps the washer running so that the Honda should be able to keep up once the surge is past but that is not what happens. It really does not appear that there is much of a starting surge with these newer front loaders. The spin ramps up slowly and the load peaks when the speed peaks.
    15 Panels (about 3,000 watts), Schneider Conext 60-150 MPPT Charge Controller, Schneider Conext 4048 Inverter, 8 x 6-volt Costco GC-2 Batteries.
  • MarkPMarkP Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    Re: washing machine

    Got an EU2000i. It will run the washer even on the sterilize cycle (turns the internal heater on) although you need to turn eco throttle off under those conditions. The EU1000i would falter during the spin cycle even with the eco throttle off.
    15 Panels (about 3,000 watts), Schneider Conext 60-150 MPPT Charge Controller, Schneider Conext 4048 Inverter, 8 x 6-volt Costco GC-2 Batteries.
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