New Batteries

LOTW

Hi there;

I'm in the process of choosing some new batteries for my off grid system. Just wondering if anyone has had any good/bad experience recently with Trojan or Crown, and what they've liked.

I need a 48v bank, and can work with anything between 400 and 600 AH really. The batteries are cycled virtually every day between 10 and 50% depth of discharge for 4 months through the summer, then floated all winter.

NAWS has a good price on the 430ah Crown l16's which I'm seriously considering, however I know no one who has Crowns…and the local rep is recommending the RE line (the only difference I can see is the water miser caps?), which is considerably more money. Anyone have experience with crowns, RE or just Deep Cycle? Is there a performance advatage to the RE l16?

2 local battery dealers want to sell Trojan L16HC 435ah at 400 each, which seems to be a fair price, but the warranty isn't fantastic, and my current trojan's weren't great.

Any advice on this is appreciated.

Thanks

Cariboocoot

Re: New Batteries

I would favour the Crown batteries at this point.
Had good experience with Trojan in the past, but they are pricey here and recent experiences of others looks like that company is going the way of Surrette and Xantrex in terms of quality and service; down hill.

Have not used Crown RE (not available here) but have used standard Crown deep cycle before with satisfactory results.

Tried Interstate's U series. Completely dissatisfied with them. One failed in the first month (got it replaced). Voltages required were ridiculously high. They did not seem to have the rated capacity right from the beginning. Had some of their auto batteries too; similar results (poor performance and early failure).

Right now I am running East Penn PS2200 (also sold as Deka or U.S. Battery). So far, so good but I just put them in last May. We'll see if they survived the Winter in a couple of months (maybe; lots of snow this year).

Batteries are always something of a crap shoot, unfortunately. Everyone's experiences will be different.

northerner

Re: New Batteries

LOTW wrote: »

Hi there;

I'm in the process of choosing some new batteries for my off grid system. Just wondering if anyone has had any good/bad experience recently with Trojan or Crown, and what they've liked.

I have Trojan batteries the L16H-AC. I haven't had them long, almost 1 year now, but so far so good. No problems with them at all. The only reason I went with the Trojan's over others is I saved big time on shipping costs. Batteries are considered hazardous goods, and shipping can be costly. Their is a distributor in Edmonton that doesn't charge any extra for shipping if along their delivery route.

From what I am hearing from others, the best bang for your buck over all is with industrial fork lift batteries, although may be more capacity than you're looking for?

Blackcherry04

Re: New Batteries

You guys in the North Land should think about you short re-charge days and all the requirements that tall case ( Forklift & Industrial ) batteries present. There seems to be many specialized issues with them and the ability to keep them healthy. All you have to do is look at the issues posted in here, they may not end up being cost effective, there are work arounds, none of them cheap.

NorthGuy

Re: New Batteries

LOTW wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone has had any good/bad experience recently with Trojan or Crown, and what they've liked.

I would strongly recommend against Trojans, at least Trojans RE. The batteries that I've got are complete disaster, and if you got bad batteries there's no chance that Trojan replaces them or otherwise helps you.

Cariboocoot

Re: New Batteries

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

You guys in the North Land should think about you short re-charge days and all the requirements that tall case ( Forklift & Industrial ) batteries present. There seems to be many specialized issues with them and the ability to keep them healthy. All you have to do is look at the issues posted in here, they may not end up being cost effective, there are work arounds, none of them cheap.

Boy oh boy is that ever true!

Besides which, forklift batteries are really big and heavy and not so easy to make use of if only from the mechanical aspect.

Rybren

Re: New Batteries

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Right now I am running East Penn PS2200 (also sold as Deka or U.S. Battery). So far, so good but I just put them in last May.

'Coot;

I just looked at the US Battery branded variety of these this weekend. They're about the only deep cycle that I can find locally (besides a Crappy Tire, no-name brand), but at $200/ea including core charge, that's steep!

Sam's Club in Upstate NY sells a Duracell 250AH battery for $99. When I contacted Duracell to see if I could get those batteries up here, they said no. They also told me to contact East Penn, as these batteries are actually made by them and just rebranded.

Cariboocoot

Re: New Batteries

I didn't say they were cheap.

Four of them obliterated more than $800 here, so about the same price you got there.

Canadians: we always pay more.

Rybren

Re: New Batteries

Hey, I don't feel quite so bad. I do, however, think that I'll grab the Sam's guest membership and grab the batteries down there.

NorthGuy

Re: New Batteries

Rybren wrote: »

Hey, I don't feel quite so bad. I do, however, think that I'll grab the Sam's guest membership and grab the batteries down there.

How are you going to move them accross the border?

LOTW

Re: New Batteries

northerner wrote: »

I have Trojan batteries the L16H-AC. I haven't had them long, almost 1 year now, but so far so good. No problems with them at all. The only reason I went with the Trojan's over others is I saved big time on shipping costs. Batteries are considered hazardous goods, and shipping can be costly. Their is a distributor in Edmonton that doesn't charge any extra for shipping if along their delivery route.

From what I am hearing from others, the best bang for your buck over all is with industrial fork lift batteries, although may be more capacity than you're looking for?

I think it's probably more capacity, but also I have to haul them either by boat or by ice road if I get going quickly, but either way, it will be nearly impossible to move a forklift battery..

Rybren

Re: New Batteries

NorthGuy wrote: »

How are you going to move them accross the border?

I was thinking of just throwing them in the back of the van and driving across. 4 x 6v 250AH shouldn't be too bad weight-wise. I have not yet investigated to see if there will be any special requirements for border crossing.

Sun Dog

Re: New Batteries

There is and it is based on weight. I can't remember the numbers but it was at something like 300 or 400lbs you need a special permit (from Transport Canada) and beyond that amount you need hazardous goods training and certificate etc. Canadian customs likely won't care but depending upon their level of integration with Transport Canada they could rat you out, I have no idea. I planned on moving my 2000lbs worth of batteries myself but decided against it. Frustrating as Canadian made Surrettes were significantly cheaper in the US :grr

Cariboocoot

Re: New Batteries

Wire 'em up, fasten 'em down, make 'em look like part of the van, and don't say a word.

Oops. Did I just say that out loud?

Of course I would never suggest anyone do anything 'illegal' no matter how irritated with brainless bureaucrats I happen to be at the moment. (Go ahead; try and guess what I've been doing today.)

BB.

Re: New Batteries

Depending on how far you want to go... I would get a "cheap battery box" or two (i.e., rubber maid box or similar), wire up the batteries to a cheap 120 VAC inverter with some alligator clips, get some cheap brown or blackish spray paint and "dirty up the batteries and wiring a bit". Put a rolled up sleeping bag next the the battery box. And call it a "camper van"--What this "importing/transporting batteries thing your speak of?".

-Bill

Sun Dog

Re: New Batteries

BB. wrote: »

Depending on how far you want to go... I would get a "cheap battery box" or two (i.e., rubber maid box or similar), wire up the batteries to a cheap 120 VAC inverter with some alligator clips, get some cheap brown or blackish spray paint and "dirty up the batteries and wiring a bit". Put a rolled up sleeping bag next the the battery box. And call it a "camper van"--What this "importing/transporting batteries thing your speak of?".

-Bill

Now that is a well thought out plan, nice 8)

Rybren

Re: New Batteries

Interesting plans, guys. I never would have even considered them myself - honest :-)

I do have a dangerous goods/hazardous materials transport certification from back in my bush-pilot days. Wonder if it's still good, 35 years later

waynefromnscanada

Re: New Batteries

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Right now I am running East Penn .

Doing research a few years ago, I came to believe that East Penn made the 11 year old "Power Battery" L-16's I'm still using.
But sadly, many battery manufacturers seem to be going down hill. I hope East Penn is not one of those going down that road.

westbranch

Re: New Batteries

To "IMPORT" any battery you will need a Certificate of Origin from the Manufacturer. Mine are made in MEXICO but the CofO states US??? go figure??? 53rd state, eh Gringo?

niel

Re: New Batteries

westbranch,
i'm curious as to what the 51st and 52nd states are?

Rybren

Re: New Batteries

State of confusion

and

State of disarray

niel

Re: New Batteries

i'd have thought for sure one of them would've been the state of denial.

Rybren

Re: New Batteries

Isn't that some place in Egypt?

westbranch

Re: New Batteries

Had to leave some leeway for Puerto Rico and ..... the GWN...:-)

Mangas

Re: New Batteries

I've got 64 Trojan L16REBs'.

No problems with mine.

northerner

Re: New Batteries

NAWS has a good price on the 430ah Crown l16's which I'm seriously considering, however I know no one who has Crowns…and the local rep is recommending the RE line (the only difference I can see is the water miser caps?), which is considerably more money. Anyone have experience with crowns, RE or just Deep Cycle? Is there a performance advatage to the RE l16?

You can install water miser caps on any FLA battery. That's what I've done with my Trojan L16H-AC's. There is a company in the USA that sells them (come in 3 heights). They help reduce the amount of gassing and water loss and are highly recommended!

vtmaps

Re: New Batteries

northerner wrote: »

You can install water miser caps on any FLA battery. That's what I've done with my Trojan L16H-AC's. There is a company in the USA that sells them (come in 3 heights). They help reduce the amount of gassing and water loss and are highly recommended!

They do NOT reduce the amount of gassing, or the water loss due to electrolysis. The do reduce the amount of electrolyte mist released from the battery (which reduces corrosion). I also recommend them.

--vtMaps

northerner

Re: New Batteries

vtmaps wrote: »

They do NOT reduce the amount of gassing, or the water loss due to electrolysis. The do reduce the amount of electrolyte mist released from the battery (which reduces corrosion). I also recommend them.

--vtMaps

So are you saying that the manufacturers claims are false. They claim a reduction of water loss by 50 to 60%. I talked to a fellow that installs systems and he said they help reduce water loss. But I may have misinterpreted the reduction of gassing. They do say it reduces the risk of explosion from escaping gasses (ie hydrogen and oxygen) But, in any case, the batteries should never be exposed to a source of ignition. So a correction on my part, they don't reduce the amount of gassing, but manufacturers claims are a reduction in water loss.

http://www.flowsystemsusa.com/water-miser-vent-cap.html

Blackcherry04

Re: New Batteries

Personally I don't like them. They are messy when you flip them open and get acid everywhere and even the shortest one makes it hard to see the level of the electrolyte. I guess it all depend on how you feel about them. I am sure they condense the droplets and cut the water usage some, it's a hard thing to measure.

How about a De-Sulfater, they make all kinds of claims about them.

northerner

Re: New Batteries

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Personally I don't like them. They are messy when you flip them open and get acid everywhere and even the shortest one makes it hard to see the level of the electrolyte. I guess it all depend on how you feel about them. I am sure they condense the droplets and cut the water usage some, it's a hard thing to measure.

How about a De-Sulfater, they make all kinds of claims about them.

Could the water loss extent be dependent on temperature and more specifically on temperature of the surrounding air. In tropical environments such as the southern US, the water misers may not be cool enough to allow for much condensation. Up here in a northern environment, I would tend to think that there would be more condensing happening.

Not really a big issue, but it could be the explanation for some users not seeing very good results.

inetdog

Re: New Batteries

northerner wrote: »

So are you saying that the manufacturers claims are false. They claim a reduction of water loss by 50 to 60%. I talked to a fellow that installs systems and he said they help reduce water loss. But I may have misinterpreted the reduction of gassing. They do say it reduces the risk of explosion from escaping gasses (ie hydrogen and oxygen) But, in any case, the batteries should never be exposed to a source of ignition. So a correction on my part, they don't reduce the amount of gassing, but manufacturers claims are a reduction in water loss.

http://www.flowsystemsusa.com/water-miser-vent-cap.html

Some caps are just mechanical vapor traps to allow water vapor boiled and splattered off along with the gassing to flow back. They can prevent an acid mist from heavy gassing from getting out into the battery enclosure and the battery top, but some of that acid may remain in the cap and cause problems when opening.
Others claim to contain a catalyst that re-combines the hydrogen and oxygen as they escape out the vent and drops the resulting water back into the battery. But the catalyst gets used up (strange thing for a true catalyst!) or poisoned by atmospheric gasses and so lasts for a limited time (years?). Then the caps need to be replaced. Needless to say the ones with catalyst are more expensive. And no idea how efficient they are at recombination.