Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

I have 2 48v outback inverters connected to a fm 80 with 18 sharp nuu235f1 panels and

48 2v sun xtender agm PVC-9150t batteries connected 24/24. For this kind of setup what should the low battery cut off be?
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Comments

  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    48 Volts is my preference. That pretty much assures the batteries aren't pulled under 50% SOC.
    The absolute lowest you can go is 42, which pretty much assures the batteries will be toast.

    BTW, that battery bank is about 1830 Amp hours @ 48 Volts. It wants like 12kW of array to charge it. Eighteen 235 Watt panels is 4230 Watts. Way under the minimum. Do you get about 67 Amps out of it? You need like 180.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Castilloj, you say you have 2 inverters, what are they?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Westbranch- they are 2 outback 48 v inverters.

    Cariboocoot- yeah I get about 64 amps out of them .
    Do you guys think I should unplug one series of 24 batteries?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti
    castilloj wrote: »
    Westbranch- they are 2 outback 48 v inverters.

    Cariboocoot- yeah I get about 64 amps out of them .
    Do you guys think I should unplug one series of 24 batteries?

    If you can get by with the lowered capacity.
    You'll have to remember to switch between them to keep them both charged, otherwise a set left on its own will deteriorate.

    The set-up should be good for about 10 kW hours AC per day. That's about 500 Amp hours on 48 VDC, which would fit better with 915 Amp hours @ 50% DOD.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    OR get another FM80 and 18 more panels for the second bank
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • stephendvstephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti
    castilloj wrote: »
    Do you guys think I should unplug one series of 24 batteries?

    It depends on how much you're drawing them down every day. If you only use 10% of the capacity on a typical day then I'd imagine that a 4kW array in Haiti would keep that bank charged just fine. But if you're drawing the bank down considerably every day then you may not have enough panel to recharge it. Have you noticed any issues with charging? Do the batteries recharge to 100% every day?
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Looking at my FM80 it shows -
    In-74v. 45.3a
    Out-49.5 v. 64.2 a
    3,190 kw. 8.8 kwh

    Mate says inverter current 8.0 AAC
    Battery actual 49.2
    Battery temp compensated 49.6 vdc
    Absorb set point 57.6 vdc
    Float set point 54.4vdc
    Refloat set point 50.0. Vdc
    Equalize set point 57.6 vdc
    Battery temp 115
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    The question of whether or not you can use a smaller battery bank has little to do with the power supplied by the panels. It's an issue of the power being used in terms of Watt hours which neither the FM80 nor the MATE can record.

    The array reading of 8.8 kW hours production is one clue of what it is capable of producing. But it is not the whole story. That is approximately 184 Amp hours on 48 Volts. As long as the actual usage isn't above that you could get by with 736 Amp hours @ 25% DOD. That would be very good indeed.
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Another thing guys is that i have a backup generator hooked up to it but as soon as i turn the generator on, the generator breaker trips. Attachment not found.
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.



    another pic
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Couple of possibilities with that:
    1). The Outbacks are programmed with too high a number for AC Amps in, causing their chargers to overload the gen instantly.
    2). The AC IN wiring is Voltage mismatched for the gen (pretty complicated stuff in that respect depending on exactly how the inverters are stacked and if there's an autotransformer involved either for 240 VAC output purposes or for load balancing).

    What are the gen specs? That's the first thing to look at.
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    It's a southwest products
    model-8rf22dwlp/q
    1 phase continuous duty 8kw
    8kva 33.33 amps
    60 hz
    rpm 1800
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Just went to adv/fx/gen2 po1
    Ac2/gen input limit 48.0 AAC

    Is this where I need to lower it?
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti
    castilloj wrote: »
    Just went to adv/fx/gen2 po1
    Ac2/gen input limit 48.0 AAC

    Is this where I need to lower it?
    Yes, you can start at say 20 Aac and see how it does. You should be able to get the specs on the charger max draw. I guess both chargers will be outputting so if it's both you may have to lower it more, I don't know how it works when it's slaved.
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.
    also does the inverter automatically switches 220v to 110v?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    A note on Outback's odd way of setting the maximum charge Amps (different from AC IN Amps); it is in Amps AC, so you have to use a "correction factor" to figure the approximate DC Amps. 10X for 12 Volt systems, 5X for 24 Volt systems, 2.5X for 48 Volt systems. It is not 100% accurate, but it's close.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti
    castilloj wrote: »
    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.
    also does the inverter automatically switches 220v to 110v?


    No. You can not feed 240 VAC into an Outback's 120 VAC IN. If it's wired right, though, two OB's will accept 240 as it splits one leg to each. There's some pretty complex wiring diagrams for OB on their web site showing the many (perhaps too many) possible configurations.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    your generator should supply ~ 16A per 110v leg (33.33 @240) so each inver/charger should be set at max ~ 15 amps AC
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Could I just run a 110 v line from a breaker into line 1 of inverter?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Okay this is at the guessing game stage as I don't know/can't recall how your inverters are stacked & wired. There are too many possibilities. They can be set to use 120 VAC parallel in (or 120 VAC in on one inverter only) or 240 VAC in with series stack and either could have an autotransformer on the output which complicates the AC wiring further (if it's used for balancing output legs of 240 VAC it has to be bypassed when the gen is running or else it tries to balance the gen - not good).

    As westbranch said the AC IN Amps should be limited to 15, because the gen's 30 Amp rating is based on 240 VAC. Using half the Voltage means half the power.

    If the inverters are wired for 240 VAC in this would be the same setting, just one leg feeds each inverter and both chargers runs (make sure the combined charger Amps isn't too high for the battery bank).

    Caveat: I am very ill today and may not be thinking clearly.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Since you are tripping the breaker on the Genset it is feasible that your inverters do NOT need to be rewired ...
    What you do need is an adjustment to the Amps IN on each inverter, which will test if the genset can handle the instantaneous load of BOTH chargers kicking in Simultaneously.

    You will have to disconnect the AC from them individually (throw breaker?) in order to adjust each charger (separately) ...

    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    I noticed on the output breaker 2 wires come from transformer then on top if breaker 2 wires go to line 1 output line 2 output.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    can you post a picture or 2?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Ok i was able to finally call outback, and they said because the power from the generator is 3 phase , its a problem trying to power up the inverters. they suggested i run 120 to the master and turn off the slave when i run the generator.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    :confused: When did the power from the generator become 3 phase? I thought you said it was 1 phase (i.e. 240 VAC).

    If it is 3 phase the only thing you can do is as Outback suggested; tap 120 and use only one inverter for charging, shutting down the slave unit. This also means you lose output power (either half the Voltage if it was configured for 240 VAC out or half the Watts if 120 VAC).

    I still don't know if you have a transformer on the inverter output or not. There's just too many possible configurations, and since your gen breaker keeps tripping we can't discount the ones that would be totally wrong.
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    Sorry about the mis-info. I have a small generator next to the aqua phonics farm that is 240 vac phase 1 . I also ran a line from a breaker box that the main campus 150 kw generator which i just found out is 3 phase. When i tried to run the small generator direct to inverter the generator breaker would always trip. so i wanted to try a different way to charge the batteries when we had no sun and also when the big generator was on.
    On the little generator i noticed the breaker has a wire that started burning so thats why i figured i had to work on getting power from the big generator, because of no sun for the last couple of days . I had fish that started dying because of no power for the pumps.


    Also there is a transformer.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    If a wire started burning it was carrying too much current, which usually means it is too small for the job. Switching to a generator that has more power will definitely not help that.

    Once again we come back to the issue of making sure the inverters are not programmed to accept more current than the generator can supply, and that both the wiring and breaker are sized to accommodate that current.

    So with the small gen the AC Amps in should be limited to 15 per inverter. That gen's 240 VAC single phase is capable of feeding both inverters, but how is dependent on which way the inverters are set up. The wire here has to be at least 14 AWG, and 12 is better. Either there will be a double 240 VAC breaker or two single 115 VAC breakers, again depending on the inverter set-up.

    This is where it gets complicated. :p

    One method that might be used:
    Inverters parallel for 120 VAC output @ 2X the rated Watts. In this case the AC IN and AC OUT are parallel with hot tied to hot and neutral tied to neutral. The gen input Voltage is limited to 120, but at 2X the normal rating because it feeds two inverters not just one. Both inverters can contribute to charging the batteries if programmed to do so. Output becomes more complex because of the presence of the autotransformer. This should be wired to provide 240 VAC backed by the dual inverters.

    Another method:
    Two inverters series stacked to provide 240 VAC at 1X the Wattage rating. This would have the neutral AC lines connected but the hot lines separate, each hot fed from one of the 240 VAC lines from the generator. Where this gets troublesome is that an autotransformer may be used on the output to provide current sharing between the two 'legs' of the 240 VAC, enabling either 120 Volt 'side' to take up to nearly the full capacity of both inverters. This is the version where the transformer must be bypassed when generator power is supplied otherwise it will try to 'balance' that.

    At this point the only thing I can do is refer you to the mass of wiring diagrams provided by Outback:
    http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/documents/wiring_diagrams/

    Some of them will apply. You need to determine which most closely resembles your system. I can't do that for you and at this point I think I'm only adding to the confusion.
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    No problem, i appreciate all the info. One last question- would getting a 3rd inverter help?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti
    castilloj wrote: »
    No problem, i appreciate all the info. One last question- would getting a 3rd inverter help?

    Help what?

    With 3 inverters you could have 3 phase output from them, but if you don't need 3 phase to run the loads there's no gain save making it easier to connect a 3 phase generator. Not really the point here.

    Or you could wire them up for 3X the current @ 120 VAC, but again if it's not needed why do it?

    It would only make things more complicated and confusing in my estimation.
  • castillojcastilloj Solar Expert Posts: 208
    Re: Inverter system in aqua phonics greenhouse in haiti

    hey guys, just wanted to update . it seems the reason the breakers kept tripping was because a ground wire was touching a bus bar. I also just noticed that one of my batteries is very hot.
    could i just replace the battery and put a new one?
    im also noticing that power is not lasting like it used to.
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