One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

mahukaawe

I just bought 12 new of these monsters to replace the ones I've had for about 12 years. Good batteries. Unfortunately on the way up to the house one of the pallets collapsed and one battery rode maybe a couple miles up on its side. We didnt notice until we got there and the caps were off and battery was drained. I filled with distilled water and got the bank in place and connected. The new batteries had a full day of sun and held at about 57-58v but at night they dropped way down.
After charging again and checked them with a hydrometer. I found the one that was on its side was dead. After another day I tried equalizing at 62v for an hour then checked again. Still dead...
I dont know what happened but at the same time find it hard to imagine it was a bad battery from the start. The other 11 are fine.

Did I ruin a new $1000 battery?
Is there a way to bring this one back to life? Its dragging down the whole bank.
We have a 48v Outback system with two charge controllers, 4 inverters, and a lot of sun
Any help would be appreciated.

Rybren

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

mahukaawe wrote: »

We didnt notice until we got there and the caps were off and battery was drained. I filled with distilled water and got the bank in place and connected.

I'm far from an expert, but did the battery drain completely? If so, wouldn't you have to fill it with an electrolyte of the proper SG rather than water?

Blackcherry04

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

mahukaawe wrote: »

I just bought 12 new of these monsters to replace the ones I've had for about 12 years. Good batteries. Unfortunately on the way up to the house one of the pallets collapsed and one battery rode maybe a couple miles up on its side. We didnt notice until we got there and the caps were off and battery was drained. I filled with distilled water and got the bank in place and connected. The new batteries had a full day of sun and held at about 57-58v but at night they dropped way down.
After charging again and checked them with a hydrometer. I found the one that was on its side was dead. After another day I tried equalizing at 62v for an hour then checked again. Still dead...
I dont know what happened but at the same time find it hard to imagine it was a bad battery from the start. The other 11 are fine.

Did I ruin a new $1000 battery?
Is there a way to bring this one back to life? Its dragging down the whole bank.
We have a 48v Outback system with two charge controllers, 4 inverters, and a lot of sun
Any help would be appreciated.

It has to be refilled with Electrolyte of the same strength that was in it. Keep what you have in it now until you get the new electrolyte. Re-fill it then Re-charge it, if the SG's are to high you have to take some out and dilute it with distilled water a little. If your not capable, take it to a battery shop.

Actually you may have helped it in a way, the water will take up the sulfate and it'll be clean inside and kept wet.

H2SO4_guy

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

I buy sulphuric acid by the 5 gallon container from the industrial battery place. Just do a search and see what is available in your area and get the correct specific gravity version for your situation, but you may want to get ahold of the battery people you bought it from and purchase it from them so it will match and be the correct mixture.

Good luck and nice new batteries are always great!

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Thanks for the help you guys. I dont know what the capacity of the battery is but I added close to a full gal. of water so now I guess I need to look for the electrolyte.
I cant find anyone locally that sells. Can anyone recommend anywhere on line to look?
Again, Thanks for the help.

solar_dave

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Well getting the correct SG acid is important, but most auto parts stores will have something.

Blackcherry04

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

mahukaawe wrote: »

Thanks for the help you guys. I dont know what the capacity of the battery is but I added close to a full gal. of water so now I guess I need to look for the electrolyte.
I cant find anyone locally that sells. Can anyone recommend anywhere on line to look?
Again, Thanks for the help.

Auto Zone and most auto parts will have it in quarts. You need to dump it all and put at least 1.265 in it. Do not dump it till you have the new ready to put in. It holds around 12 gallons thats a lot, the wet weight is 315 lb and dry weight is 220 lbs, 95 lbs of electrolyte. Guessing it weighs 8 lb per gallon.

If you can get some UN-diluted Sulfuric Acid you can make you own. it's risky to fool with. Find a battery shop. Look on-line for it, you need a bunch.

BB.

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

I think he is somewhere around Kahului Hawaii... If anyone can help him with a supplier.

-Bill

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

I found some at Interstate batteries here in Wailuku.
They only have 5gls but will bring in more.
What I dont get is I only added a little more than a gal of water to cover the cells. Will I need to drain the whole thing again and start with just pure electrolyte?
Also, If leaving this battery in my system for a week until I get enough electrolytes is it going to do harm to the other 11 batteries?

Blackcherry04

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

mahukaawe wrote: »

I found some at Interstate batteries here in Wailuku.
They only have 5gls but will bring in more.
What I dont get is I only added a little more than a gal of water to cover the cells. Will I need to drain the whole thing again and start with just pure electrolyte?
Also, If leaving this battery in my system for a week until I get enough electrolytes is it going to do harm to the other 11 batteries?

If you add mixed electrolyte it cannot get back to the original strength, you'd be mixing a mix. With some pure acid you could. Will it hurt ?? I don't know what your trying to do. At 4 volts if you remove that one you wouldn't have enough voltage, if you took out 3 you could stick a 12 V battery in, but it wouldn't work to well.

Please hold up until you get all the electrolyte in. As long as the plates are wet, they should be ok. You want to dump it all out at once and refill it right away. You have a big problem and a expensive battery. I had the same thing, but I filled it with water on purpose to keep the plates wet, the battery was fine. Check the voltage right after you put the new electrolyte in, make sure the + / - are correct and the voltage should start climbing. You will have to get a charger on it early on don't let it linger at a low voltage to long.

From Rolls Activating Dry Charged Batteries

Special order batteries may be shipped dry (acid shipped separately).

To activate these batteries, start by removing the vent caps. Using approved battery grade electrolyte (1.265), fill each cell half way between the plates and the bottom of the vent well tube. It is important not to over fill the cells as the acid will expand upon charging.

If the cells are too full, the acid will spill out of the top of the cells. Allow electrolyte to saturate into the plates and separators for at least 90 minutes. The temperature of the electrolyte will rise and the specific gravity will drop. Once this is complete, place the batteries on charge at the finishing rate (5% of the 8 or 20 hour rate). The rate may be increased if the battery does not begin to gas. Do not let the cell temperature exceed 115° F (46° C). If the temperature becomes excessive or the cells begin to gas vigorously, reduce the rate of charge. Continue charging until the cell (or cells) reaches within .005 points of the specific gravity of the filling electrolyte corrected for 77° F (25° C). We recommend to continue charging for an additional 60 minutes to insure no further rise in specific gravity.

Top up or remove electrolyte as necessary for proper level. Never add electrolyte (only approved water) after activation. Replace vent caps and remove any spillage of electrolyte. If necessary, clean with bicarbonate of soda and water (100 grams of soda to one liter of water). Rinse with water and wipe dry. Ensure that soda solution does not get into cells.

*Do not place on charge until electrolyte temperature is below 35°C.

For detailed information on Battery Activation, please refer to Rolls Battery User Manual

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

If you add mixed electrolyte it cannot get back to the original strength, you'd be mixing a mix. With some pure acid you could. Will it hurt ?? I don't know what your trying to do. At 4 volts if you remove that one you wouldn't have enough voltage, if you took out 3 you could stick a 12 V battery in, but it wouldn't work to well.

Please hold up until you get all the electrolyte in. As long as the plates are wet, they should be ok. You want to dump it all out at once and refill it right away. You have a big problem and a expensive battery. I had the same thing, but I filled it with water on purpose to keep the plates wet, the battery was fine. Check the voltage right after you put the new electrolyte in, make sure the + / - are correct and the voltage should start climbing. You will have to get a charger on it early on don't let it linger at a low voltage to long.

From Rolls Activating Dry Charged Batteries

Special order batteries may be shipped dry (acid shipped separately).

To activate these batteries, start by removing the vent caps. Using approved battery grade electrolyte (1.265), fill each cell half way between the plates and the bottom of the vent well tube. It is important not to over fill the cells as the acid will expand upon charging.

If the cells are too full, the acid will spill out of the top of the cells. Allow electrolyte to saturate into the plates and separators for at least 90 minutes. The temperature of the electrolyte will rise and the specific gravity will drop. Once this is complete, place the batteries on charge at the finishing rate (5% of the 8 or 20 hour rate). The rate may be increased if the battery does not begin to gas. Do not let the cell temperature exceed 115° F (46° C). If the temperature becomes excessive or the cells begin to gas vigorously, reduce the rate of charge. Continue charging until the cell (or cells) reaches within .005 points of the specific gravity of the filling electrolyte corrected for 77° F (25° C). We recommend to continue charging for an additional 60 minutes to insure no further rise in specific gravity.

Top up or remove electrolyte as necessary for proper level. Never add electrolyte (only approved water) after activation. Replace vent caps and remove any spillage of electrolyte. If necessary, clean with bicarbonate of soda and water (100 grams of soda to one liter of water). Rinse with water and wipe dry. Ensure that soda solution does not get into cells.

*Do not place on charge until electrolyte temperature is below 35°C.

For detailed information on Battery Activation, please refer to Rolls Battery User Manual

Yep. I just found that same pdf on their site.
Interstate is ordering 15gl for me but it wont be in until next week then I'm going to take it to them and let them fill & charge it for me since i live about 2 hours from town.
That means until then this battery will be dragging on my other 11 new ones unless I disconnect it from the bank but that means no power for a week.

During the day its under charge and I'm showing about 54-57 most of the day then at night if I just run the generator will that be okay to keep the others from stressing?
Right now with typical use at night I'm reading about 49.3 or so by sun up which I know is low. So maybe running the gen at night will help keep the cycle shallow?

I'd hate to bypass the whole system and just run on gen power for a week. For that cost I could damn near buy a new battery and have it shipped.

Y'all have been very helpful. There aren't a lot of folks running a sys like this around here or just living completely off the grid for that matter.

westbranch

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

there is a very recent thread by some one with a 24v system and one bad cell , he took it out, reset the charge parameters until the replacement came. Inverter worked as within the Outback LVD settings. see page 16

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?18372-Rolls-Surrette-S-1590-cell-death/page2&highlight=Surrette+battery+dead+48v

Blackcherry04

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

mahukaawe wrote: »

Yep. I just found that same pdf on their site.
Interstate is ordering 15gl for me but it wont be in until next week then I'm going to take it to them and let them fill & charge it for me since i live about 2 hours from town.
That means until then this battery will be dragging on my other 11 new ones unless I disconnect it from the bank but that means no power for a week.

During the day its under charge and I'm showing about 54-57 most of the day then at night if I just run the generator will that be okay to keep the others from stressing?
Right now with typical use at night I'm reading about 49.3 or so by sun up which I know is low. So maybe running the gen at night will help keep the cycle shallow?

I'd hate to bypass the whole system and just run on gen power for a week. For that cost I could damn near buy a new battery and have it shipped.

Y'all have been very helpful. There aren't a lot of folks running a sys like this around here or just living completely off the grid for that matter.

I don't think your hurting it, It's just not going the give you much. The charging will not hurt it because it's not able to have much reaction to the charge. Like I said, the more sulfur you remove the better and it will recombine easier in the lower mix.

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Hi mahukaawe,

Sorry to hear of the battery problem.

With 95 Lbs of electrolyte in the two cells, there will be about 47.5 Lbs per cell. The correct target SG of the electrolyte has always been 1.265 for these and most Surrette RE batteries. 1.265 SG electrolye should weigh about 10.12 Lbs per gallon. SO, there should be about 4.7 gallons of electrolyte per cell.

So ten gallons should do you for the refill. Although your plan of 15 is a good idea, and perhaps you can return the unused 5 gal container if it is unopened.

In my experience with these batteries, and those Surrettes that are similar, the Jar (the container for the individual cell) has a top piece thermally welded to the bottom container. The walls of the jar are very thin. THis weld is somewhat fragile, and can break if it is subject to mechanical stress.

I would recommend that you, or the Interstate batt folks remove the top cover of the 4 V battery, and look carefully for any sign of this weld being damaged, or any other damage to the jars.

These batteries are tall, so you will need to strap it in the upright position, so it will not fall over during transport ... but you do know this.

You might also want to confirm with Surrette Battery that the correct SG of the electrolyte is still 1.265.

The Thread that WB referenced is for a system of 2 V batts IIRC, and the removal of these two cells might cause a low voltage situation. We do not know the Inverter model, or that of the CC.

This is a fairly large batt, with considerable capacity, so, the batt V might welll ride through the night just fine if the inverter can take being short by 4-ish volts from running on 11 batteries. YMMV.

Good Luck, Vic

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

mahukaawe wrote: »

Yep. I just found that same pdf on their site.
Interstate is ordering 15gl for me but it wont be in until next week then I'm going to take it to them and let them fill & charge it for me since i live about 2 hours from town.
That means until then this battery will be dragging on my other 11 new ones unless I disconnect it from the bank but that means no power for a week.

During the day its under charge and I'm showing about 54-57 most of the day then at night if I just run the generator will that be okay to keep the others from stressing?
Right now with typical use at night I'm reading about 49.3 or so by sun up which I know is low. So maybe running the gen at night will help keep the cycle shallow?

I'd hate to bypass the whole system and just run on gen power for a week. For that cost I could damn near buy a new battery and have it shipped.

Y'all have been very helpful. There aren't a lot of folks running a sys like this around here or just living completely off the grid for that matter.

Thanks.. that was very helpful. I will post what happens next week once it is done.

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

OK mahukaawe,

Curious just how you are doing at getting this one battery back into full service.
Any news?

Vic

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Vic wrote: »

OK mahukaawe,

Curious just how you are doing at getting this one battery back into full service.
Any news?

Vic

Nothing Vic.
Still waiting for the 15 gls. of electrolytes to get in to Interstate battery. was hoping they would get in by the end of last week. Now they tell me it will be this week.... hoping.
Once the work is done and its recharged I'll post what happens.
Right now I'm just running gen at night til lights out. By morning I'm down to about 49.8-50 vlt. and days have been very sunny so I'm back up very fast in the morning. I notice the batteries aren't using much water at all over the last 2 weeks.
We will see....

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Thanks mahukaawe, for the update. Mainlanders like me are a bit spoiled, as the distribution centers are often much closer to us than to you.

Do hope that you get the electrolyte very soon! Good Luck, Vic

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Hi mahukaawe,

Hope that the electrolyte has come in, do wonder just how you are doing.

Any news? Thanks, Vic

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Aloha Vic
Just got back from off island. Sorry for delay.
I actually just got it today. From Napa since Interstate seems to have no concept of urgency.
Anyway I'll be filling tomorrow and charging so hopefully I will know if things are A OK by Friday.
I will let you know how it goes.

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Hi mahukaawe,

Thanks for the update. Am sure that you will check the SG of the new electrolyte with a Hydrometer, if it is not labelled on the container.

You had mentioned that when you filled with Distilled water to original level, that only about one gallon was required. Would expect that there would have been more water required, as well.

This battery really needs to be fully drained of all of the fluid that is in it. Inverting it is one of the few ways that come to mind. The refill should be done within a short time of the draining.

Previously, had suggested that the red top cover of the 4 V battery be removed, and the Jars inspected for damage from being tipped over, but, if you will not need to transport this battery in the future, this step may be unnecessary.

Do you have a plan of how to drain this battery ?? It might be simpler to drain each cell by removing each from the outer container by removing the top and unbolting the cell/cell connection and hoisting each cell out, and tipping horizontal, and then inverting to drain completely. If you choose to do this, do NOT fully refill a cell before they are back into the outer conatiner, as they will require less electrolyte when in the outer container, FWIW. Good Luck, Vic

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Thanks Vic.
I was told it was 1.265 but I will check before starting. As for draining I really kind of thought of just slowly inverting into a tub as it drains and then refiling. I have one 5gl box for each cell and a quart extra just to be sure. Hopefully its is just under 5gl for each cell.
Any idea how long after refilling I should wait until hooking up to charge? Will it be alright to hook it back up to the others to charge it or do I need to take it to someone that can do an isolated controlled slow charge on it?

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Hi mahukaawe,

Regrding draining ... well, as you know, this is a 315 lb battery. It is difficult to see how two people could man handle such a beast so it is fully inverted, and wait for all the fluid to drain. The battery is small enough that more people would have trouble assisting. And expect from the amount of water you added, that the fluid in the batt is still acidic, so some attention to safety is also important.

These batteries are a bit sensitive to how forces are applied to them. You might be able to strap the battery to a pallet (carefully with several ratchet tie-downs -- trying to avoid putting too much pressure on the battery case with any one tie down). Then, perhaps a hoist or come-along could be used to hoist it and invert it.

Have changed cells in this battery type, but have never had to drain one. For changing cells, carefully used a chain hoist.

On placing this battery on charge; realize that all of this work will probably mean that your inverter is off-line. I would suggest that you fill with electrolyte, and let this battery sit for a while and allow the electrolyte to diffuse into the plates. But would bet that this is not required.

Personally, would try to charge for the first day at the Float voltage, by Forcing Float ... forget just what CC you are using. Then it would probably be good to watch the terminal voltage of this battery during this process, comparing it with others in this newish bank.

Just guesses of what I might do. Have no experience with this situation. Perhaps all of the above is too cautious.

There is some chance that the individual jars could have been damaged when this battery tipped over (??), and if this is the case, inverting the battery could make a mess inside the outer container. I have seen a 4KS25 with the jar-to-cover "weld" broken, allowing electrolyte to leak from the jar into the outer container when it was hand trucked from a pickup. This damage occurred in transit from rough handling by the Freight company ... it can happen. In this case, the damaged cell was hoisted out of the container, trussed with some plastic, and guled together with Epoxy.

Guessing over for now. Vic

Blackcherry04

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Vic has come up with some good ideas. Here is what Surrette's says about activating dry shipped batteries. All of it won't apply to what your doing. You will have to check the SG's in the end and may have to adjust them after the first charge or two, if anything they should be higher than the electrolyte you put in because of any sulfate left behind. I'd be tempted to fill so the plates were covered, a little on the low side so if I had to add some distilled water to bring the SG's down, I'd have some room.

http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf Page 8

Activation of a Dry Battery (Lead Acid)
Special order batteries can be shipped dry (acid shipped separately). To activate these
batteries, start by removing the vent caps. Using approved battery grade electrolyte
(1.265), fill each cell halfway between the plates and the bottom of the vent well tube.
(See Figure 4 on page 11.) It is important not to over fill the cells as the acid will expand
upon charging. If the cells are too full, the acid will spill out of the top of the cells.
Allow electrolyte to saturate into the plates and separators for at least 90 minutes. The
temperature of the electrolyte will rise and the specific gravity will drop. Once this is
complete, place the batteries on charge at the finishing rate (5% of the 8 or 20 hour
rate). The rate may be increased if the battery does not begin to gas. Do not let the
cell temperature exceed 115° F (46° C). If the temperature becomes excessive or the
cells begin to gas vigorously, reduce the rate of charge. Continue charging until the cell
(or cells) reaches within .005 points of the specific gravity of the filling electrolyte
corrected for 77° F (25° C). We recommend to continue charging for an additional 60
minutes to insure no further rise in specific gravity.

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Draining will be easy with my little backhoe and sling setup I have. Should be nice and gentle. I also have a chain hoist.
Any idea of total liquid capacity with electrolyte AND distilled water ? Just realized I only have 5gls of water here so if that wont do it
I may need to wait until this weekend as its a long way to town.

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Hi mahukaawe,

Great that you have a good way to drain the battery of its contents.

Well, if my math is correct, the total volume to refill the battery with 1.265 SG electrolyte, then the approx fill is 4.7 gallons.

The distilled water that you are referring to may be from bc's thoughts. I dunno about that. I could well be fairly difficult to force remanining sulphates into solution with normal charging, when there is 1.265 SG electrolyte in this battery. An EQ might help do it.

It would be good to cycle the bank some number of times before trying to adjust the SG level. As you know, Surrette recommends a comissioning EQ for a new bank, and this may not have yet been done.

What CC are you using on this system?

If you have bought 1.265 SG electrolyte, you should need very little distilled water, if at all ... there wil be some of the water that you added to this battery that will remain, saturating the plates, envelopes and separators. This should tend to dilute the electrolyte that you are adding.

If this battery were mine, I would fill the cells with electrolyte a bit short of full, perhaps noting how short the fill is -- as you know, the spec fill is 0.25 - 0.5" below the bottom of the fill tube. IMHO, It is quite possible that additional acid may need to be added later, if there is very much dilution of the 1.265 (if that is what you have).

After a normal cycle or two, if this battery looks to have reasonable SG and terminal voltage. compared to others in the bank, would suggest that you do a comissioning EQ, even if you have done one before (which seems doubtful). Then do some cycles to 60-ish% SOC, fully recharge, then look at the SGs of the entire bank, and record them in the Log book. These batteries are forgiving, and appear to love to be cycled, if you have the ability to recharge from the 60-ish % SOC within a couple of days deepish cycles early in the bank's life should be good.

You have a long history with these or similar batteries, and have gotten good life from them, so it seems that you know what you are doing. The 4KS25 banks here have only been service for 7.5 years ... knock, knock. So you are ahead of me. Let us know how you are doing.

Good Luck! Vic

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Thank Vic. Wasn't sure if more water was going to be needed for charging and all I have is in the water reservoir. Sounds like I'll be good for a few days/cycles.
I'll see how it acts after filling and if all goes well may try to eq. It will be the first real one since these were hooked up.
They are good batteries. The original ones sat in a parking lot for over a year with no charging at all. I hooked them up and cycled them some and they held voltage fine. That was 10+ years ago. They lasted long cause we avoided deep cycles, kept them watered, and equalized regularly.
You're wrong about one thing though, I don't know what I'm doing.
At any rate I'll let you know how it goes. If I don't post anything after a day or two I prolly blew myself up.

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

mahukaawe,

Good luck, just be careful with the acid, and you should be fine. Let us know how you are doing. Vic

mahukaawe

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Well so far so good. The bank seems to be holding a full charge pretty well. Unfortunately we have not had a day of sun since the battery was refilled so I havent been able to eq them yet. Hopefully in the next couple days I can.
Vic, you were right on at 4.7 gl of electrolyte so I returned the 2nd one unopened. Nice

Vic

Re: One of my Surrette 4-KS-25PS 4V batteries wont hold a charge

Hi mahukaawe,

Thanks for the report. Sounds great that you were able drain this battery and refill without incident.

Hope that you have sun soon. Good luck, and hope you can stop by here and report how things are going after a week or so. Thanks, Vic