Last month's gas bill
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Re: Last month's gas billYes, over the last two weeks of December and first two weeks of January we had a large number of nights that had lows between -10 F (-23 C) and -5 F (-21 C), and that spiked the gas usage. My ceiling is R-60, the walls about R-29 (including thermal bridging), while the crawl space walls have R-19 insulation. In addition, this house is fairly well sealed, with a blower door test giving 2.4 air charges per hour (ACH) at 50 Pa differential pressure.
Wow. That's a lot of insulation.
Size of the house matters. Window area is very important. Our house is rather small, but we have several big windows and two patio doors. We have an unheated barn, which is insulated just the same as a house, but there are only very small windows. It never gets colder than -10C, even if it's -40C outside. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
Moisture will condense when you have warm air that can hold more moisture meeting cold air, and the temperature of the warm air reaches the dew point. In winter time it is common in cold climates (where the air is very dry because it can't hold much moisture) to humidify the inside of the house so the RH is around 30-35%. Insulation is nothing but loose fibers that traps air and inhibits its migration from a warm place to a cold place. Over-insulating the ceilings merely causes a stratification where warm air from the living quarters makes a transition to cold air in the attic, and at the point in that stratification where the moisture in the warm air reaches the dew point the water will condense, wet your insulation, reduce its effectiveness, and cause mildew and molds in the insulation. In extreme cases of over-insulating, the insulation will become wet enough to cause water stains in the ceiling, or if there's a vapor barrier the water will collect on top of the barrier and rot the rafters out.
A properly insulated ceiling will let the warm air thru at the proper rate, and leave the attic warm enough, so the water doesn't condense. The roof or attic vents then let the warm moisture laden air out and the water in it condenses where it leaves the attic or roof vents instead of condensing in the attic.
People who live in a cold climate and insulate to ridiculous levels like R60 are doing themselves a disservice, living in a house that is harboring molds in the attic and insulation, and the insulation will become "dusty" from the molds with time. As contractors and HVAC engineers have learned that over-insulating is not good, they have even gone to eliminating the vapor barrier in new construction to allow the building to "breathe" better and prevent the mold problems and mold dust in the attic insulation.
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Chris -
Re: Last month's gas billChrisOlson wrote: »Sealing houses up too tight is what causes condensation - a house that can breathe will not have condensation problems in the attic or walls.
A house that doesn't have insulation doesn't need vapor barrier. That's why poorly insulated houses do not have condensation problems.
If you have a good insulation (such as thick faberglass batts), it will be very cold on one side and very warm on another. When warm air moves through and hits a cold plywood on the other side, all the moisture condenses on it. Things get worse with time because plywood (and much worse OSB) doesn't have pores in it to let the water evaporate to outside.
Once we built a new room in our house and put fiberglass batts between studs. When we came to install vapor barrier two days later, there was a lot of water behind the batts, and in some places up to 1/4 inch ice. Since then, I believe in vapor barrier.
Other example. There was an internal wall in our house and it had a wire coming through 1 inch hole in the top plate. A warm air coming through that relatively small hole was hitting cold roof and caused condensation - there was 3 inch thick ice covering the entire bay between trusses. When it melted in spring, there was water dripping through the soffit. When we closed the hole, there was no problem any more. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
In new construction, instead of the vapor barrier between the insulation and the living quarters, they've gone to the so-called "house wrap" like CeloTek under the siding, and full-length roof cap vents for the attic, with the outside walls open at the top to the attic and no eave vents. The idea is that warm air always migrates up, and by increasing the amount of "leakage" of warm moist air from the house that moves thru the attic, it keeps the attic warmer so water doesn't condense in it.
Our son-in-law is a licensed contractor and when he fist married our daughter he told us everything that is wrong with the way our house is constructed, according to the newer methods used to prevent condensation in walls and the attic in our climate.
Four years ago we had him tear the whole house apart and re-do it the way he said it should've been done. Our house is only 20 years old and it already had some rotted wall studs and rafters. He re-did it without the vapor barriers, put the house-wrap on with new siding and installed a new roof with the full-length vents. What a difference! No more cold corners in the house because the inside heat migrates thru the walls and ceiling and out the roof vents like it should instead of stratifying in the insulation. And absolutely zero frost up in the rafters anymore because the attic stays nice and dry now. The old insulation in the attic was so dusty from molds in it that if you even touched it mold dust would come out of it.
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Chris -
Re: Last month's gas bill
CeloTek and Tyvek are not vapour barriers; they are air blocks. They go on the outside to prevent air infiltration to the inside. Curiously this has a similar effect as vapour barrier on the inside as it stops the air flow through the walls, which is what carries the vapour allowing it to condense when cold enough and causing the damage. Moving air exchanges temperature far faster than heat radiating through a wall will.
Exactly what kind of damage depends on the climate. Where the weather is habitually damp you have more moisture problems, where dry less so. I used to live in the Vancouver area. Stopping mould down there is nearly impossible as the damp is everywhere and goes in and out through every opening. Look up "leaky condos, Vancouver" sometime and see the worst construction farce ever perpetrated.
I spent quite a bit of time, effort, and money fixing the insulation in the house we had down there. The vapour barrier on the inside (where it belongs; the warm side of the insulation) wasn't the problem. It was the exposed surfaces of the insulation on the outside (Tudor style house; space between interior walls/floors and roof upstairs) that did the damage; air could move across the unsealed surface causing and exchange through the fibreglass that brought the heat with it.
At least they didn't put soap in the stucco when they applied it.
BTW, foam type insulation doesn't suffer from these problems as it is in itself a vapour and air barrier, providing it is properly installed. And that is the biggest issue: a bad insulating job can be worse than none at all. -
Re: Last month's gas billChrisOlson wrote: »Four years ago we had him tear the whole house apart and re-do it the way he said it should've been done. Our house is only 20 years old and it already had some rotted wall studs and rafters. He re-did it without the vapor barriers, put the house-wrap on with new siding and installed a new roof with the full-length vents. What a difference! No more cold corners in the house because the inside heat migrates thru the walls and ceiling and out the roof vents like it should instead of stratifying in the insulation. And absolutely zero frost up in the rafters anymore because the attic stays nice and dry now. The old insulation in the attic was so dusty from molds in it that if you even touched it mold dust would come out of it.
Of course, if you keep the attic warm enough, there will be no condensation. But to keep it warm you need to spend much more energy.
If you want to save energy you would need to put more insulation, which will then require a vapor barrier. The more insulation you use, the more problems with condensation. So, you would need an even better vapor barrier, and also much better attic ventilation. But you can overcome all these problems if you think that saving energy is important. Now they frequently use spraid foam, which is insulation and vapor barrier at the same time. The air simply cannot get into it. -
Re: Last month's gas billChrisOlson wrote: »Moisture will condense when you have warm air that can hold more moisture meeting cold air, and the temperature of the warm air reaches the dew point. In winter time it is common in cold climates (where the air is very dry because it can't hold much moisture) to humidify the inside of the house so the RH is around 30-35%. Insulation is nothing but loose fibers that traps air and inhibits its migration from a warm place to a cold place. Over-insulating the ceilings merely causes a stratification where warm air from the living quarters makes a transition to cold air in the attic, and at the point in that stratification where the moisture in the warm air reaches the dew point the water will condense, wet your insulation, reduce its effectiveness, and cause mildew and molds in the insulation. In extreme cases of over-insulating, the insulation will become wet enough to cause water stains in the ceiling, or if there's a vapor barrier the water will collect on top of the barrier and rot the rafters out.
A properly insulated ceiling will let the warm air thru at the proper rate, and leave the attic warm enough, so the water doesn't condense. The roof or attic vents then let the warm moisture laden air out and the water in it condenses where it leaves the attic or roof vents instead of condensing in the attic.
People who live in a cold climate and insulate to ridiculous levels like R60 are doing themselves a disservice, living in a house that is harboring molds in the attic and insulation, and the insulation will become "dusty" from the molds with time. As contractors and HVAC engineers have learned that over-insulating is not good, they have even gone to eliminating the vapor barrier in new construction to allow the building to "breathe" better and prevent the mold problems and mold dust in the attic insulation.
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Chris
You are free to have your own theories, but they are not in agreement with what most building scientists currently think. For example, from GreenBuildingAdvisor.com, "In reality, air leaks mean you’ve lost control of air movement. Air and moisture can be forced into wall and ceiling cavities where water vapor condenses and fosters the growth of mold. Warm air exiting the top of the house can draw in cold air to replace it, wasting heat and energy. In many ways, uncontrolled air movement wastes energy and increases the risk of long-term damage to building components." NorthGuy has provided an example of a small hole causing significant ice and moisture accumulation in a house that he lived in. In the GreenBuildingAdvisor.com article referenced above, the title is "Can Houses be 'Too Insulated' or 'Too Tight'?," and they answer that question with, "No. Green homes are insulated well, tightly built, and well ventilated."
Max Sherman, who probably has as many technical publications as anybody on the subject of air infiltration in residential buildings, asks the question, "Houses Need to Breathe...Right?" in this article. In that article, he goes on to title one section with "Leaky houses are not the answer." He explains how heat recovery ventilation systems (HRV) remove stale air, bring in an equal amount of fresh air, and recover most of the energy from the stale air and add it to the fresh air, conserving energy. The HRV that I have in my house does exactly that. It transfers about 70% of the sensible heat from the stale air as detailed here.
The use of air barriers and moisture barriers are two different phenomena. For example, Tyvek house wrap is an air barrier, and a liquid water barrier, but it lets water vapor penetrate the membrane. The issue with moisture is to limit moisture penetration into the structure, but then to allow some amount of drying to let moisture that does penetrate the structure to leave the structure. This is typically accomplished with Class III vapor retarders (greater than 1 perm, less than 10 perm) like latex paint used on the interior and exterior of the assembly, from buildingscience.com. This Building Science Corp. article has good information about the control of moisture in building assemblies. You are correct that Class I vapor retarders like plastic sheeting is now not recommended in the U.S., as it does not allow moisture that gets into the building assembly to easily dry out.
Another example of excellent thermal resistance without moisture condensation problems is the walls of my house. The walls are conventional 2x6 studs sealed to the OSB with foam and filled with wet-sprayed cellulose, followed by Sheet Rock covered with latex paint. Then outside the OSB is covered with 2" of XPS rigid foam. Moisture that does penetrate the latex paint does not reach the condensation temperature until the midway into the rigid foam, which is unaffected by condensation. So it remains as mostly as water vapor in the structure until it has a chance to dry, typically to the interior, or the small amount condensed in the foam can dry to the interior or exterior. The 2" XPS rigid foam has a permeability for water vapor of about 0.55 (from Building Science Corp.), so it is a class II vapor retarder that allows limited moisture movement.
It takes a little planning to get a tight, well-insulated, energy-efficient house with good moisture control and good indoor air quality, but it is certainly possible by paying attention to what is already explained in the home building literature. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
On the bright side if someone has left the vapour barrier out of your house a couple of coats of oil-based paint on the walls and ceiling will work almost as well.
But only almost. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
Except in California--We probably already have had oil based paints banned by now (or if not, well on the way--I guess the California laws started in 2005).
And we now have the Paint Tax (or is it paint fee?).Less than 1 gallon container $.35
1 gallon can $.75 each
5 gallon buckets $1.60 each
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Last month's gas billCariboocoot wrote: »On the bright side if someone has left the vapour barrier out of your house a couple of coats of oil-based paint on the walls and ceiling will work almost as well.
But only almost.
Oil based paints are considered vapor semi-impermeable, 0.1 to 1 perm, or class II vapor retarders.
Latex paints are considered vapor semi-permeable, 1.0 to 10 perm, or class III vapor retarders.
So oil based paints will let less moisture into the assembly, but will also be slower to let moisture escape from the assembly. Keep in mind that the predominate sources of moisture getting into the assembly are air leaks with moisture laden air, poor flashing around windows, doors, seams in roofs, etc. rather than straight conduction of moisture though the walls and ceiling.
Currrent recommendation in the U.S. is to use latex paint on interior and exterior surfaces. With the colder climate in Canada, polyethylene film might still be required by some building codes, although the building science guys do not agree with those code recommendations. -
Re: Last month's gas billCurrrent recommendation in the U.S. is to use latex paint on interior and exterior surfaces. With the colder climate in Canada, polyethylene film might still be required by some building codes, although the building science guys do not agree with those code recommendations.
The poly works fine, provided it's installed properly. It's very easy to leave a small hole somewhere, such as electrical outlets, that just acts as a conduit for the moisture to travel through. You'll see the result right in that spot.
We actually have a varied climate in Canada; the coastal areas being wetter and usually warmer (depending on latitude and currents) and the inland areas being dryer and cooler for Winter. I live near to the desert, so it's not terribly damp here and moisture control isn't much of a problem. -40 Winter and +40 Summer is.
In the Lower Mainland fighting off mould was a constant battle. One year everyone's car interior got covered in black growth. Never seen it before or since; the conditions were just right then. Black mould growth in buildings is a serious health threat there.
I don't always agree with building codes (or electrical codes) but having seen results from various techniques over the years I'll stick with recommending vapour barriers on the warm-in-winter side for now. -
Re: Last month's gas billCariboocoot wrote: »The poly works fine, provided it's installed properly. It's very easy to leave a small hole somewhere, such as electrical outlets, that just acts as a conduit for the moisture to travel through. You'll see the result right in that spot.
...snip...
Keep in mind that during the summer, the moisture drive is from the outside to the inside (that 40 C air holds lots of moisture), and the moisture cannot penetrate the poly film, so there will be condensation on the studs. Also, any moisture that gets into the wall through holes that let moist air in, leaks that let liquid water in, etc. cannot dry to the interior. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
Having just gone through some of these issue with some classes I have taken, and working with some retro fit insulation contractors, vapor barriers are a true double edge sword. The reality can change over the course of the annual year. For example, the old days rule was to provide a vapor barrier on the heated side. The problem there is that the heated side changes changes over the course of the year. The problem is that with modern sheeting, like ply or OSB, the sheeting can act as a good VB, so now you have a situation where inevitable moisture from either outside the structure or inside, can be trapped in the wall (or ceiling) assembly leading to rot issues.
There are a number of often conflicting assemblies now in the field. It seems that spray foam in new work, and dense packed cellulose are a couple of the better alternatives. Proper dense pack cellulose serves as a very effective air barrier, which in turn reduces the need for a vapor barrier. Like so many things, many solutions create their own problems.
Old, leaky structures seldom rotted, new modern tight ones, while being energy efficient have issues that need to be addressed.
Back on the subject,
Tony -
Re: Last month's gas bill
Air conditioning is the culprit in reverse-flow conditions. Without a temperature difference between inside and out you don't get the vapourized moisture condensing at some point. So if all you do in Summer is open the windows, there's no problem. If you keep the house closed up and crank up the A/C then the interior becomes the cold spot relative to the exterior, and you've just turned the wintertime problem around. In areas where heating & cooling are used they will sometimes put a vapour barrier on both sides of the wall to stop the transmission in either direction.
I should have mentioned in the OP that our gas usage is cooking mainly, with occasional bouts of furnace running when the temp drops too low over night. If we had to heat with gas all the time (instead of wood) the consumption would be much higher, even in this well-insulated small house with its passive solar (which doesn't work when the sun doesn't shine).
It sometimes seems like you have to build a place, live in it a few years to figure out what's wrong, then rebuild it to correct the problems. I'm just a tad tired of rebuilding places though. -
Re: Last month's gas billCariboocoot wrote: »Air conditioning is the culprit in reverse-flow conditions. Without a temperature difference between inside and out you don't get the vapourized moisture condensing at some point. So if all you do in Summer is open the windows, there's no problem. If you keep the house closed up and crank up the A/C then the interior becomes the cold spot relative to the exterior, and you've just turned the wintertime problem around. In areas where heating & cooling are used they will sometimes put a vapour barrier on both sides of the wall to stop the transmission in either direction.
...snip...
Note from the Building Science Corp. writeup on "Understanding Vapor Barriers":Avoidance of using vapor barriers where vapor retarders will provide satisfactory performance. Avoidance of using vapor retarders where vapor permeable materials will provide satisfactory performance. Thereby encouraging drying mechanisms over wetting prevention mechanisms.
Avoidance of the installation of vapor barriers on both sides of assemblies – i.e. “double vapor barriers” in order to facilitate assembly drying in at least one direction.
Avoidance of the installation of vapor barriers such as polyethylene vapor barriers, foil faced batt insulation and reflective radiant barrier foil insulation on the interior of air-conditioned assemblies – a practice that has been linked with moldy buildings (Lstiburek, 2002).
Avoidance of the installation of vinyl wall coverings on the inside of air-conditioned assemblies – a practice that has been linked with moldy buildings (Lstiburek, 1993).
Enclosures are ventilated meeting ASHRAE Standard 62.2 or 62.1.
So rather than a vapor barrier (perm < 0.1) like poly film on both sides of an assembly that would trap water in the assembly, the current recommendation is to use a vapor semi-permeable material (1.0 < perm < 10) on both sides of the assembly to limit propagation of water vapor into the assembly, but to still allow it to dry. That is the reason for recommending latex paint on both the interior and exterior of an assembly. -
Re: Last month's gas billOf course, if you keep the attic warm enough, there will be no condensation. But to keep it warm you need to spend much more energy.
That's what we did - put in a bigger furnace - 200,000 BTU for 2,100 sq ft. But the only caveat is that we heat with wood so the energy is basically free (wood harvested from our own land) and carbon neutral, with the power for the forced air blower provided by wind and solar.
The only real downside to the wood heat is that it is the only source of heat we have. We can leave and go someplace in the winter for 2-3 days with no problem and it just gets cold in the house. But longer than that time we have to have somebody babysit the house to keep the furnace going because it will get too cold in the house.
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Chris -
Re: Last month's gas bill
Which is why in some places wood is not allowed as a primary heating source; go away and the heating stops because there's no Iron Fireman to stoke the boiler.
We heat with wood, but there's a gas hot air furnace as well. It comes on some nights when it's very cold (nasty noisy thing) and is there is we have to be away for extended times - like the numerous overnight medical trips to Kamloops. :roll:
I'd like to replace that monstrosity with a gas fireplace and T-stat so that the heating would be quiet. That groaning blower fan could wake up the dead!
We also have passive solar, but it's not terribly effective since it needs sunshine to work. Ain't no sunshine here at night in Winter, only in Summer. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
A great heat option is Rinnai space heaters. They do use - bit of 120 vac, but they are very efficient, very quiet and very reliable. They come in sizes from ~8k-30k BTUs.
Tony -
Re: Last month's gas billChrisOlson wrote: »That's what we did - put in a bigger furnace - 200,000 BTU for 2,100 sq ft. But the only caveat is that we heat with wood so the energy is basically free (wood harvested from our own land) and carbon neutral, with the power for the forced air blower provided by wind and solar.
The only real downside to the wood heat is that it is the only source of heat we have. We can leave and go someplace in the winter for 2-3 days with no problem and it just gets cold in the house. But longer than that time we have to have somebody babysit the house to keep the furnace going because it will get too cold in the house.
We also burn wood from our land. We have lots of pines infested with mistletoe. They often die and provide endless supply of wood. However, our main heat is from our gas furnace.
It's funny, but with the gas furnace we cannot leave for too long too. It's a new 98% efficient kind which produces few gallons of condensate every day, which is dripping into the septic tank. The supply is so slow that the syphon doesn't flush, but the water slowly drips through the system. This is not a problem if we live in the house and use water because the syphon does get flushed often. But, if left unattended, the slowly dripping water freezes at the end of the pipe, the septic tank eventually overflows and we get a sewer backup. I'll have to do something about this. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
A question might be, why are you taking the condensate drain to the septic, rather than just to daylight? I don't beleive that it is required to go to septic or sanitary sewer, just to daylight, (and be prevented from freezing.)
Tony -
Re: Last month's gas billA question might be, why are you taking the condensate drain to the septic, rather than just to daylight? I don't beleive that it is required to go to septic or sanitary sewer, just to daylight, (and be prevented from freezing.)
It simply goes to the floor drain, which eventually leads to the septic tank.
Taking it outside will definitely help. It may freeze by itself at -40C, but it may be easier to deal with than the septic. I'll need to think about that. Thank you Tony. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
We select cut mature trees to get them out of the way before nature claims them. Getting the mature hardwoods harvested also allows sunshine to get to the new trees and undergrowth that they have seeded for a hundred years or more so it can get a chance to grow. The cottonwoods and popple trees will come first and grow fast - I cut those down and run them thru my chipper to make more room for the hardwoods to grow. I sell some chips to people that have chip burners, and also use the chips to heat my shop. We also burn chips in the house furnace sometimes but they burn very hot so we only use them if it gets pretty cold out.
We also use some anthracite coal in our house furnace when it gets really cold out. But the coal fire is so hard to get going and tend it that we don't use it as much as we used to.
Both my wife and I grew up in homes heated with wood. We lived in a house heated with LP gas heat for a short time when I worked for Cummins. We had a gas explosion in that house due to a bad water heater valve. When we built our new house we planned around wood heat because better than 95% of rural homes in this area are heated with wood, and it was what we grew up with and are used to. We have no need for a "backup" heat source because wood heat never fails. It is the oldest and most reliable heating fuel known to man, and it is carbon neutral. Our new furnace has a catalytic recombustor on it so there is no smoke from the chimney and no creosote buildup in it. Even though the wood heat does require a little work, we like it and wouldn't use any other source.
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Chris -
Re: Last month's gas bill
Typically a floor drain shouldn't go to the sewer/septic, especially if it doesn't hve a trap. Floor drains typically run to weeping tile drains and footing drains, out to daylight. It is possible to have one Plumbed to the sewer, but that would be rare. I have seen folks put thier condensate drains on a small pump to pump to daylight. If you wish to keep it simple, drain it into a five gallon bucket, with a Rule bilge pump to pump automatically. Proper pitch and higher volume would eliminate freezing.
Tony -
Re: Last month's gas billYou are free to have your own theories, but they are not in agreement with what most building scientists currently think.
They are not my theories and building scientists have already been proven wrong in the past, so then they come up with a new thing that becomes the latest "fad".
The only thing that is proven is 100+ year old buildings with heating and insulation systems that have stood the test of time. Everything else is just the latest theory. Our house was built according to the latest building scientist theory in vogue at the time, and it didn't work. Building scientists are like politicians - go with the latest unproven theory and if it don't work, switch to plan B and act like Plan A never existed - but at all costs avoid using what has been proven over hundreds of years because it's too simple.
A house is just like a human. If you were forced to wear one article of clothing all year round, 24 hours a day, what would it be? A rubber rain suit poly barrier under your clothes, or a waterproof breathable Tyvek jacket over your clothes?
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Chris -
Re: Last month's gas billTypically a floor drain shouldn't go to the sewer/septic, especially if it doesn't hve a trap. Floor drains typically run to weeping tile drains and footing drains, out to daylight.
We don't have a storm drain. Everything goes to the septic tank. Of course, there's a trap on every drain. I think it's typical for rural houses. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
Not to be argumentative, but IMHO adding storm water to a septic system is a recipe for septic problems,, and over loading the drain/leach field. To me the idea of adding additional water to the system is a bad idea. (not that a condensate drain is much water, but if you have gutters or footing drains adding to the septic I would not think that is a good idea.) Your local codes/standard practices might be diffent from my experince.
Tony -
Re: Last month's gas billWe don't have a storm drain. Everything goes to the septic tank. I think it's typical for rural houses.
That has been my experience, for everything but a sump pump which would be too much water for the septic system and avoids freezing problems by being a pump-driven "drainback" system.
I suppose you could put in a reservoir and a pump to daylight for your gas furnace condensate. Or just a reservoir that tipped into the floor drain whenever it got above a certain level. The reservoir would be have to be large enough to trigger the siphon.SMA SB 3000, old BP panels. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
Having lived rural most of my life I agree with Tony; don't put anything down the septic that isn't necessary. That said I also agree the condensate volume is unlikely to be significant or hazardous. Not the same as running gutters or cellar sumps into it. In most municipalities it is not allowed to put "storm water" into the septic system for the very reason it adds unnecessary volume and possible contaminants.
I have seen some systems where a sump was used, complete with float switch and pump. Kind of a complicated way to go, and eats more energy.
See what were proving with this thread? Two things: solving one problem often creates another, and not all solutions apply everywhere.
It's a funny ol' world. And of course by "funny" I mean "peculiar", although sometimes humorous as well. -
Re: Last month's gas bill
And then we would all need 250,000 Btu/hr furnaces like you are using. Can you imagine the impact on natural gas and oil supplies, carbon footprint to the atmosphere, and air pollution? Or if we all used wood, can you imagine the loss of forests?ChrisOlson wrote: »...snip... but at all costs avoid using what has been proven over hundreds of years because it's too simple.
The technologies required to build efficient, tight homes have been developed. Why not take advantage of them? The old technologies were the best available in their day, but the inhabitants did not try to heat their homes to 72 F (22 C) on those cold winter nights like people often want nowadays. If you want to live in a leaky house, fine, open the windows and enjoy the fresh air. Just don't waste the earth's resources trying to heat it to today's comfort standards.
If you are implying that I was suggesting using polyethylene vapor barriers on the inside of houses, you need to reread the posts above, in particular the exchanges with Cariboocoot, and all the links that I provided to the reference materials on control of water vapor in house structures. There is no suggestion about using polyethylene vapor barriers by me, or in any of the reference material. What I did suggest is using class III vapor retarders, also known as semi-permeable materials, like latex paint on the interior, and latex paint and/or Tyvek on the exterior. These materials limit the transport of liquid water and water vapor into the assembly since the perm rating for most latex paints is less than 10, but still allow some drying of the assembly, which is roughly analogous to your "breathable Tyvek jacket."A house is just like a human. If you were forced to wear one article of clothing all year round, 24 hours a day, what would it be? A rubber rain suit poly barrier under your clothes, or a waterproof breathable Tyvek jacket over your clothes?
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Chris -
Re: Last month's gas bill
How would you keep the condensate from freezing at the point where the drain reaches the outside air? And to make the problem more challenging, you want to dump water well away from the foundation. My condensate pump for the furnace and HRV drains to the sewer line, which I believe is required by code in this (cold) climate....snip...
I suppose you could put in a reservoir and a pump to daylight for your gas furnace condensate. ...snip...
When I lived in New England, I hooked up a sump pump drain to dump the water outside the basement, but occasionally the water in the hose would freeze, leaving the pump running full time.
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