Main Service Panel

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quique
quique Solar Expert Posts: 259 ✭✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
This is not my Main Service Panel, its the one at my office. I have been getting a lot of help from some people in this forum about fixing my home one and one of the topics is Grounding.

I want to know if Letter A is the Ground Bar? Even though its blue coloredAttachment not found..

Letter B is alone and white, so logic says its the Neutral, right?

Letter C is both Hot lines then.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    I am not an electrician but it would appear you have it correct. Who ever wired that is color blind.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Main Service Panel
    solar_dave wrote: »
    I am not an electrician but it would appear you have it correct. Who ever wired that is color blind.
    They used what they had......lol. I work on Boats, and that's always what they tell me when everything is the same color.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    The ground is in the dark and hard to see, but I think you're right.

    Where are the wires that we've seen in the aux panel?
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  • quique
    quique Solar Expert Posts: 259 ✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    No, just to clear things up. This Main Svc Panel is from my office. The Aux Load Panel in the other post is from my house. Im here with my electrician and Im explaining everything and he concurrs about the Neutral from Grid that should not be crossed with the Neutral from Load Aux & Inverter at the switch. He is telling me he did this because originally there was an ATS ITS-30 Transfer Switch and it wasnt working properly. They wrote to ATS who instructed them to cross the Neutrals in that way (for some reason)...or perhaps they misunderstood what ATS said. In any event, we are on our way to fixing this.

    I will keep you posted. Thx
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    What I'd like to know is why a typical mess like this MSP is ok with the electrician and inspector world but when solar steps into the game, oh no - a whole new level of regulations comes into play. Grounding up the whaazoo, label everything with special engraved custom made plaques, special colors, duplicate disconnect switches, multiple inspections....
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Main Service Panel
    quique wrote: »
    This is not my Main Service Panel, its the one at my office. I have been getting a lot of help from some people in this forum about fixing my home one and one of the topics is Grounding.

    I want to know if Letter A is the Ground Bar? Even though its blue colored


    Letter B is alone and white, so logic says its the Neutral, right?

    Letter C is both Hot lines then.
    Ye gods, what a mess! Green, white and red wires as branch circuit feeders? Black, red and green neutral wires (in the block to the right of C)? Double lugged breakers? Down at the bottom it looks like water has gotten in there.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    Looks like something from one of my nightmares. :p

    Yes, 'A' would be the ground terminal strip. 'B' is the neutral. 'C' is the two hot lugs. It looks like there is a "horseshoe" neutral bar around the upper connections; to the left of 'B' and far right side as well, with a connecting strip across the top. This appears to be independent of 'B' but close enough for connecting. There also seems to be a missing heavy lug on this horseshoe; upper right corner. Nice thing about this sort of design is that is allows neutral connections on either side with lugs for each side's corresponding breaker.

    Any inspector here would either die laughing looking at that mess, or get very angry. Either way it wouldn't get approval. :p

    P.S.: There seems to be some corrosion visible at the bottom on the wires. Is this outside? It does not look like a box suitable for exterior use.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Main Service Panel
    quique wrote: »
    No, just to clear things up. This Main Svc Panel is from my office. The Aux Load Panel in the other post is from my house.

    In the aux panel that you posted before there were two wires (#1 and #2) which as you said came from the main panel. However, we don't see them in the main panel, do we?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Main Service Panel
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    In the aux panel that you posted before there were two wires (#1 and #2) which as you said came from the main panel. However, we don't see them in the main panel, do we?

    Different location. That sub-panel was at his house. This is the main panel at his work.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    Something else - on the right lug of the "C" wire pair, it looks like they trimmed back some of the strands to make it fit the lug.

    To call this "redneck engineering" would be an insult to rednecks.

    DISCLAIMER: Some of my best friends are rednecks. :D
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #12
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    Remember this is Honduras... So this is not based (necessarily) on US/European codes.

    Could be very humid where poster lives/works.

    This is a 120/240 VAC split phase service (appears to be)? (could be 115/230 VAC--depends on your local standards). 60 Hz?

    Note that there can be several options for ground bus bars and neutral bus bars.

    In the US, your two blacks (in US would normally be Black and Red) are the outer two legs from the pole transformer. And the White Wire is the Neutral or "center tap" of the transformer:
    [FONT=fixedsys]

====)|(====Black
    )|(
    )|(==Neutral
    )|(
====)|(====Red[/FONT]

120 VAC from Black to Neutral
120 VAC from Red to Neutral
240 VAC from Black to Red

    The Neutral in the US is grounded (to a cold water pipe and/or ground rod driven at the main panel (and usually at the pole transformer too).

    In the Main Panel, there may be one or two "metal bus bars".

    One bus bar may be connected to the metal box--This would be the safety ground connections.

    A second bus bar may be insulated--This is the Neutral bus bar.

    Or, you may have one bus bar connected to the metal box. This is the common Ground/Neutral Bus bar.

    Or you have have an insulated bus bar (neutral) which has an option to ground to the metal box (removable "green screw").

    In the US, the Neutral Bus and the Ground Bus (or other ground to water pipe) connection is made at one location. Typically in the main panel.

    In many other countries, the neutral bus is simply floating or grounded elsewhere (at the pole, or not).

    Floating or Ground in one location is probably acceptable in your region. Generally, tying Ground to Neutral in two or more locations can cause "ground loop" problems--This is where the current in the Neutral Wire is shared with the Ground wire (parallel current paths). Usually the White/Neutral wire is heavier than the green/ground wire--So it is possible to burn out the green wire with too much current in certain conditions.

    Then you have the whole issue with the UPS/AC Inverters--But lets get the above "right" first.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • quique
    quique Solar Expert Posts: 259 ✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    Because solar installers rock!

    :)
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Different location. That sub-panel was at his house. This is the main panel at his work.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #14
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    Re: Main Service Panel
    BB. wrote: »
    But lets get the above "right" first.

    -Bill

    Bill, we might have to rewire the whole country to do that. :p
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  • quique
    quique Solar Expert Posts: 259 ✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    Well

    The country has bigger problems than this. Although attitudes like the one who installed this msp are what has taken us to the economic and social turmoil we are in now. I don't like shortcuts. So I'm getting this fixed :)

    Thx guys

    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Bill, we might have to rewire the whole country to do that. :p
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #16
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    I intended to say--Get the understanding of how things are wired "right" first.

    Roles of colored electrical tape may be a help too (if you are going to start marking stuff.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #17
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    Re: Main Service Panel
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Different location. That sub-panel was at his house. This is the main panel at his work.

    Oops ... I thought the "office" was a room at the house. That's where my "office" is :D

    It's interesting that wiring techniques are similar in both panels. The black conduits (plastic?) are stuck directly through the walls of the panels. Wires are run in these conduits. This is somewhat more throrough approach than simply running wires through the walls.

    Iteresting that multiple wires are connected to the same breaker (on the left), even though there are 8 free spaces for more breakers.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: Main Service Panel
    BB. wrote: »
    Roles of colored electrical tape may be a help too (if you are going to start marking stuff.

    Silly spell checker! If the role of electrical tape is to distinguish the wires, then you will need rolls of it to do that. :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #19
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    We all have a roll to fill. :p

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    I like cinnamon roles! (but not iced ones!)

    Tony
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
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    Re: Main Service Panel
    icarus wrote: »
    I like cinnamon roles! (but not iced ones!)

    Tony

    I personally think of the witch in Hansel and Gretel as a cinnamon role. :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
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    Re: Main Service Panel

    uh oh, beer belly roles.
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