NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

mtdoc

Interesting to see THIS editorial in the NY times today - by David Crane and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. no less..


Some big asssumptons and somewhat grandiose statements but nonetheless overall good to see such a statement made in the mainstream press.

A few key quotes:

When our power industry is unable to perform its most basic mission of supplying safe, affordable and reliable power, we need to ask whether it is really sensible to run the 21st century by using an antiquated and vulnerable system of copper wires and wooden poles.

Some of our neighbors have taken matters into their own hands, purchasing portable gas-powered generators in order to give themselves varying degrees of “grid independence." But these dirty, noisy and expensive devices have no value outside of a power failure. And they’re not much help during a failure if gasoline is impossible to procure.

Solar panels have dropped in price by 80 percent in the past five years and can provide electricity at a cost that is at or below the current retail cost of grid power in 20 states, including many of the Northeast states. So why isn’t there more of a push for this clean, affordable, safe and inexhaustible source of electricity?

First, the investor-owned utilities that depend on the existing system for their profits have little economic interest in promoting a technology that empowers customers to generate their own power. Second, state regulatory agencies and local governments impose burdensome permitting and siting requirements that unnecessarily raise installation costs. Today, navigating the regulatory red tape constitutes 25 percent to 30 percent of the total cost of solar installation in the United States, according to data from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, and, as such, represents a higher percentage of the overall cost than the solar equipment itself.

And as we rebuild the tens of thousands of houses and commercial buildings damaged and destroyed by the storm, let’s incorporate solar power arrays and other clean energy technologies in their designs, and let’s allow them to be wired so they still are generating even when the centralized grid system is down.

ahemm... storage anyone???

Lastly:

We have the technology. The economics makes sense. All we need is the political will.

Yeah good luck with that last part...:roll:

Cariboocoot

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

We have the technology. The economics makes sense. All we need is the political will.

Wrong, wrong, and good luck with that.
As we have been discussing in several different threads just today.

Maybe these guys ought to read the forum.

BB.

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

11 feet of salt water is not going to do much good for a solar power system plus battery bank.

-Bill

inetdog

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

BB. wrote: »

11 feet of salt water is not going to do much good for a solar power system plus battery bank.

-Bill

What if you Float the batteries?

BB.

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

Off grid solar power for Sandy would have been about as useful as screen doors in a submarine.

In San Francisco, another city with a relatively old infrastructure and near sea level (down town)--We have our fair share of manhole covers blown off when an electrical vault lets go (Google Search).

Installing explosion resistant covers:

Manhole covers in San Francisco will soon get a different look, but it's not a decoration, it's to make sure they don't hurt you in an electrical vault explosion. PG&E is also changing the way it inspects it s underground electrical system. Apparently, persistence pays off. After a series of accidents in San Francisco, PG&E has agreed to change the inspection process of its electrical system and will be replacing many of its manhole covers in the city with a locking mechanism.

The city of San Francisco started pressuring the utility company after a transformer explosion in 2005 blew off a manhole on Kearny Street in the Financial District, severely burning a pedestrian. The victim, Lisa Nash, spent two months in the hospital and years in physical therapy.
And in 2009, an underground cable fire shot a geyser of flames out a manhole in the Tenderloin District. The utility company has agreed to update its underground electrical system, replacing circuits - prone to power outages. It will also replace 125 manhole covers with swivel lock caps, which will prevent the covers from blowing off in an explosion, but simply raise four inches to release any gases.
PG&E is also thinking about replacing the transformers in the city to safer, newer models. All steps to rebuild its reputation and public trust - which was hit especially hard after September's deadly gas pipeline explosion in San Bruno. The investigation into the cause of that explosion is still going on.

Lack of maintenance with any system is just an accident waiting to happen.

Sam Larano, SFPUC Power Enterprise, gave an update on recent power outages on TI/YBI[Treasure Island/Yerba Buena Island--middle of Bay Bridge between SF and Oakland California. -BB] and gave an overview of electric system noting that, the Navy still owns electric and natural gas systems. TIDA is the caretaker of the Islands operation and maintenance while the SFPUC has had the role of operator of utility system since 1997. Mr. Larano reviewed the SFPUC responsibilities.
Sue Black, Manager of Utility Field Services SFPUC, identified the outages from November to January as an unusual condition. Ms. Black noted that the crews she manages are on standby 24/7 365 days a week and are ready to respond within an hour’s notice of an outage. Since 2009 there has been an average of 14 outages per year. Systems are 60-80 yrs. old with a typical lifespan of 30-40 yrs. Ms. Black reviewed reasons for recent outages.
In response to an inquiry from Director Richardson, Ms. Black stated that there are two backup generators that can be activated, with the DIO’s approval, if the Davis substation is down. This process takes over an hour.
In response to an inquiry by Director Chen relating to costs of upgrading the system and budgetary implications, Mr. Larano stated that the PUC is working on a formal utility agreement with TIDA. Currently the facilities are owned by the Navy and the PUC is prohibited from spending city funds on the Island at this point as it can only spend up to the revenues collected from sale of utilities. After conveyance, agreement will be presented to PUC commission and the TIDA Board which will allow for discussion of upgrading system.
Ms. Saez reminded the Board that this presentation is for the purpose of an update on recent power outages. Questions related to the development and future PUC infrastructure on the Island can be addressed at a future meeting. Director DelCarlo asked for fiber optics plans to be discussed at a future meeting as well.

-Bill

mtdoc

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

BB. wrote: »

Off grid solar power for Sandy would have been about as useful as screen doors in a submarine.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Sure for the relatively small number of people directly affected by storm surge and flooding, ground level batteries, etc would have been impacted and likely made useless. But the vast majority of people who lost power from Sandy had no flooding whatsoever and would have been in good shape, power wise, had they had a system with battery back up.

BB.

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

But, from what I understand (I am not there--So I could be wrong), most of the long term power outages were in areas that got flooded (some by 9' or more of salt water). A solar power system would not have been very useful as most of them would have the electronics and battery bank installed at ground level, or even in basements.

In some cases, like the Long Island Power Authority, severe miss management of maintenance/emergency planning + reduction in tree pruning (probably both "cost savings" and green complaints) certainly added to the problems.

Having every home install a full hybrid/OG capable system for $10,000-$20,000 + backup generator and fuel is probably not practical anyway. And many folks would have use natural gas as the backup fuel of choice--Which was turned off because of the physical damage to the homes in the worst hit areas.

I do believe that a small backup genset and fuel supply would have made many people's lives much better after the storm--But that would have created many problems too--Fires from "fuel bunkers", people dieing from carbon monoxide, electrocution (all the water around), fires from extension cords/bad wiring/flooded appliances, etc. would have hurt quite a few folks too.

I do not know what the answer is--And it will probably be different for each family (home, row houses, condo, apartment, in flood plain/outside of flood plain, etc.)...

It took 3-4 weeks to get light and heat in the major public housing complexes in the region--The 45,000 or so people in public housing probably had no place to evacuate to anyway... And I really wonder how much more work is needed for permanent repairs and renovations from the Sandy and the aftermath.

Not much is being written right now about the problems and costs (about the effects on the population). And I wonder how much it will return to "normal" vs 50% (the "new normal") of original population/business activity (how is New Orleans--in general--After these many years of reconstruction)?

Having a place to evacuate to and not putting all of your money in a home that is in an exposed location--Options are a good thing.

-Bill

mtdoc

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

BB. wrote: »

But, from what I understand (I am not there--So I could be wrong), most of the long term power outages were in areas that got flooded (some by 9' or more of salt water). A solar power system would not have been very useful as most of them would have the electronics and battery bank installed at ground level, or even in basements.

Ah - that's the difference. I wasn't necessarily referring to just the long term outages - you might be right about those being flooded areas - I don't know.

I am pretty sure though that of the many tens of thousands without power in the few days to week after the storm, the vast majority of those were not flooded but lost power because of trees blown across power lines, substations out, etc. They would have been fine with a back up system.

Having every home install a full hybrid/OG capable system for $10,000-$20,000 + backup generator and fuel is probably not practical anyway.

Agreed. Though NAWS and other RE retailers would like it!


Ultimately though, I think that small scale distributed power systems will be the answer to electricity for most (but far fewer!) people. The years are numbered for large scale, centralized, fossil fuel or nuclear power generation (and for centralized, large scale. solar or wind IMHO). Of course the population will have to decrease and society will look much different - but I digress..... For now - party on Garth - power is cheap...:roll:

niel

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

even if the flooded area homes had a solar setup that could survive such a devastating event the rest of the dwelling would not be habitable from the damages. it might take an elevated above ground bomb shelter to survive weather like that.

ggunn

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

My understanding is that there were a lot of long term outages in areas that were not flooded. I know that during the aftermath of Hurricane Ike in Texas there were parts of Houston that were without power for extended periods of time. A good friend of mine who lives there had no power for over seven weeks.

solarix

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

The difference between households having their own solar power system (partially battery backed) and buying power from the utility is: the solar system is paid for upfront, while the utility system is paid for monthly. If you figured the present value of your many future utility payments, it would be more than the cost of an appropriate solar system. Of course, we cannot yet do without the base generation of the utility, but thinking solar is expensive while conventional power is cheap is erroneous. If you count the intangible costs of pollution etc, in many states already it would be cheaper for the utility (with their advantage of access to capital) to install distributed solar, (let the homeowner add on the battery backing if desired) than to install more dirty generation. The real rub comes in maintenance, lots easier to maintain a central facility than a systems all over everywhere subject to vandalizing etc. Bottom line is that independence costs extra. You can share the shortage with the centrally planned society, or you can pay extra, be responsible for yourself, and live in abundance.

Eric L

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

My understanding is that there were a lot of long term outages in areas that were not flooded. I know that during the aftermath of Hurricane Ike in Texas there were parts of Houston that were without power for extended periods of time.

That has been the experience I've had further east on the Gulf Coast as well; areas with no storm surge flooding can nonetheless see up to several weeks without power after a hurricane. When almost all the lines are down from wind and falling trees, it just takes a long time to get everything back up.

By the way, Issac hit about 100 miles west of us this summer. It was an unusually slow moving storm. The day before arrival pv production from my array was pretty good, then we had two days of very poor production as it passed, but then got back to near normal as it moved out. In other words, the lost pv production potential from these systems isn't necessarily worse than any other big mesoscale system.

ggunn

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

solarix wrote: »

The difference between households having their own solar power system (partially battery backed) and buying power from the utility is: the solar system is paid for upfront, while the utility system is paid for monthly. If you figured the present value of your many future utility payments, it would be more than the cost of an appropriate solar system.

In the case of a straight grid tied system you would be correct in many cases, but when you throw autonomy into the mix... not so much. Depending on how much autonomy one wants to purchase, batteries can easily double or triple the cost of a system. Soon after Ike, a guy in Houston approached the company I was with at the time asking for a quote for a system that would power his whole house at normal (for him) usage for an indefinite length of time, i.e., sustainably, in the event of an extended power outage. When we ran the numbers, the estimate for the batteries alone was a couple hundred thousand dollars. A system like that will never pay for itself in real dollars, especially in his case since what he experienced has been an historically rare event in his location.

solarix

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

I saw a SMA webinar recently that showed off an upcoming grid-tied inverter product with limited outage capability. When the grid goes down, you go out and flip a switch and a dedicated outlet turns on that can source up to 10A of AC without batteries! (only when the sun is up of course) Great for emergency situations. That could go a long way while waiting for your utility to repair your neighborhood.

Lee Dodge

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

solarix wrote: »

I saw a SMA webinar recently that showed off an upcoming grid-tied inverter product with limited outage capability. When the grid goes down, you go out and flip a switch and a dedicated outlet turns on that can source up to 10A of AC without batteries! (only when the sun is up of course) Great for emergency situations. That could go a long way while waiting for your utility to repair your neighborhood.

That sounds like a solution that many of us would be interested in. That would provide enough power to run a refrigerator during the day to avoid food spoilage, and to run blowers and/or pumps on a natural-gas, propane, or oil-fired furnace to keep from freezing water pipes in the winter.

solarix

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

From the December SMA newsletter:

As an added benefit to our most valued partners, SMA has invited Sunny PRO Club members to be among the first to get their hands on the highly anticipated Sunny Boy 3000/4000/5000TL TL-US! In the coming weeks, limited quantities of the UL-listed Sunny Boy TL-US will be made available to qualifying SPC installers in advance for immediate installation and monitoring.

Scheduled for full release in early 2013, the Sunny Boy 3000/4000/5000TL-US represents the next step in performance for UL certified inverters. The new Sunny Boy TL-US inverter features a dedicated emergency power supply, dual MPP trackers, flexible design capabilities and reduced weight.

To learn more about how you can participate in this exclusive limited launch opportunity, become a member of the Sunny PRO Club.

Mangas

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

As far as off grid solar plants go, over the years I've had a few starry eyed pols up here looking at but rarely understanding the economics our system not to mention what planning discipline was involved to get there. At first they incorrectly assume we did to be "green". I've had to remind (and disappoint) them that we did it only for lifestyle choices, independence and ranch conservation reasons.

For these folks, after a few hours of off grid reality the "solar fairy tale" evaporates when they realize what they must live without notwithstanding making a sizeable investment to maintain what they want.

For now, mandating alternative energy grid or, off grid as a cure all to our energy woes has as much chance as jackrabbit has at a coyote convention. It's ceratinly in the future but I'm not willing to make more mandatory "uneconomic investments" driving us further into debt when there are existing resources at hand.

Just my two cents.

ggunn

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

Mangas wrote: »

...after a few hours of off grid reality the "solar fairy tale" evaporates when they realize what they must live without notwithstanding making a sizeable investment to maintain what they want.

At a former job, I used to man booths at solar trade shows. When the tire kickers would come by the booth asking about PV, I would ask them what they expected to get from a PV system on their home. The answer I got a very large part of the time was, "I want to get off the grid." My answer to most of them (which went on for a while) can be distilled here down to three words - no, you don't.

Cariboocoot

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

Unfortunately there are too many hyped "news stories" out there misleading the public into believing that solar is "ready for prime time". As has been accurately described many times on this forum, it simply isn't. It doesn't do the industry any good if people are told one thing and then reality turns out to be another (regardless of subject matter).

Mangas

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

The serious part especially for our kids is these guys are throwing billions of taxpayer dollars at it without being honest with the public. They don't want to invest quality time with many of you folks before they start borrowing money.

Solar in some form is the future but you've got to cross the fossil rope bridge to get there.

mtdoc

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

Mangas wrote: »

Solar in some form is the future but you've got to cross the fossil rope bridge to get there.

Great line!! And absolutely correct. The problem of course is that rope bridge has frayed ropes and missing planks and there is no way that 7 + billion people are going to get across it....

Lee Dodge

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

ggunn wrote: »

At a former job, I used to man booths at solar trade shows. When the tire kickers would come by the booth asking about PV, I would ask them what they expected to get from a PV system on their home. The answer I got a very large part of the time was, "I want to get off the grid." My answer to most of them (which went on for a while) can be distilled here down to three words - no, you don't.

Some of you are equating going to solar power and alternative power as going off-grid, and then discussing the shortcomings of that approach. How about thinking of it from a World War II perspective of "you folks are going to have to live without rubber and metal while we are in this war," except in this case the doing without is conventional energy sources? Do you just say that it is just too difficult, and turn over and die? Let us say the specific problem that you are given is, "you must design an energy system whereby very limited petroleum resources are dedicated to the slowly developing 'war effort,' whatever that is, and you must operate homes and industries on renewable fuels to include water, wind, and solar."

So is your first step to abandon the grid? I think not. It would seem that grid-tie solar systems distributed on houses and industrial buildings are not currently economically competitive, but they are not too far away, maybe a factor of 2 to 4, which could be a sacrifice for the "war effort." Hydroelectric, including pump storage, is a great source to help sustain the grid in that it is easily variable in output. However, hydro has limited geographic availability, mostly in the northwest U.S., western Canada, and some in the eastern parts of both countries. Wind often nicely augments solar, and is available in the central part of the U.S. and Canada, and also along much of the coast.

The other thing that would be needed is a way of storing solar energy. I think the German effort called ADELE (Adiabatic Compressed-Air Energy Storage for Electricity Supply) http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/mediablob/en/391748/data/364260/1/rwe-power-ag/innovations/adele/Brochure-ADELE.pdf represents an excellent approach to try out (along with many others). Of course, if we had to switch over to a high proportion of electric vehicles with their limited range and other problems, we could also use their batteries as part of the grid.

So going solar does not imply going off-grid in my opinion. Many people who are currently off-grid would remain off-grid, but they are a very small proportion of the overall energy effort. Maintaining the grid may help to incorporate large-scale energy storage, which may be more practical than current small-scale, battery storage approaches.

Eric L

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

It would seem that grid-tie solar systems distributed on houses and industrial buildings are not currently economically competitive, but they are not too far away

I think many here would agree with you in principle Lee, but the article that the OP was discussing was an NY Times editorial which suggested that pv arrays could be "wired so they still are generating even when the centralized grid system is down."

This made it seem as if having renewable power available during grid outages is just a matter of "wiring", which as we all know is completely false. So the emphasis on off-grid came from that, I think.

Lee Dodge

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

Maybe I am changing the focus from the article, but it just seems too easy to be negative about how to solve energy problems. solarix pointed out earlier in this thread that, in fact, the soon-to-be-released Sunny Boy 3000/4000/5000TL TL-US is able to provide limited emergency power during daylight only that could be a real benefit when the grid is down.

Both my daughters lost power during Hurricane Sandy, but neither of them had flooding. So their two homes are examples of houses that could benefit from grid-tied solar that could also have limited off-grid capability.

Cariboocoot

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

I rather think the point of the thread is pointing out that solving the outage problem is not quite as simple as the proponents in the original article think. Clearly they don't understand how the technology functions. How many times have we explained to people here that you can't get power out of a standard GTI without the grid? This article sort of perpetuates that misconception.

So again it comes down to needing storage to make it work when the grid doesn't, and whereas that will work for some locations during an emergency it is by no means the panacea some would have the public believe it to be.

BB.

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

Did not somebody here say that off grid solar was still not going to help (a lot) them with Sandy--They had two weeks of bad weather after Sandy which still required a generator/fuel to get by.

In the end--Solar Power For Every Home (NYT article) is never going to be possible... I would be surprised if 10-20% of an urban population had good solar exposure (power lines, trees, shading from buildings, etc.)/storage space for battery bank+generator+fuel in major urban areas (let alone the difference in sun between the US Southwest vs the "rest of the country). Add apartments and other high density housing where 1% would probably be able to "independently" install solar (vs some sort of building owner/owner association action).

It is just not possible as presented.

-Bill

Lee Dodge

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

BB. wrote: »

Did not somebody here say that off grid solar was still not going to help (a lot) them with Sandy--They had two weeks of bad weather after Sandy which still required a generator/fuel to get by.

-Bill

Weather recorded at Trenton NJ around time of Hurricane Sandy:
Date Rainfall (in) Visibility (mi) Max sustained wind speed (mph)
28-Oct 0.00 10 15
29-Oct 0.14 5.8 35 Sandy
30-Oct 2.14 9.14 42.9 Sandy
31-Oct 0.05 10 12
1-Nov 0.00 10 11.1
2-Nov 0.00 10 11.1
3-Nov 0.01 10 10.7
4-Nov 0.00 10 11.1
5-Nov 0.00 10 12
6-Nov 0.00 10 8
7-Nov 0.00 7.9 15.9
8-Nov 0.35 8.1 19
9-Nov 0.00 10 15
10-Nov 0.00 9.3 5.1
11-Nov 0.00 6.5 6
12-Nov 0.00 6.1 11.1

mtdoc

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

Pretty typical of big storms. Large low pressure system brings rain and big winds for a few days. Power outages due to trees down. Storm passes and clear skies but still no power ....... sometimes days, weeks...

Bill - I spent the first 34 years of my life in coastal California (the last 7 in the Bay area). I did not really understand the reality of big weather systems until I lived in Vermont, Montana, and now NW Washington.

My power usually goes out several times a year during big storms here. For example winds gusts here today up to 42 mph so far. Rain, clouds and no solar production. But after the storm blows itself out I can count on a few days of clear skies. Even during the storms - here yesterday for example, there was a break in the clouds and i was able to harvest a few kwh or power.

niel

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

rainfall at 0.0 does not indicate if it was cloudy or not.

lee dodge
interesting that in that same time period as you have shown that i got 3.29in, but it was more spread out over time and the worst was on the 30th with .9in. the hurricane exited the coastal area much quicker than out here. i believe the cleveland area got hit very hard with rains during that same time period with about 6.5in.

btw solarvic, youngstown got 3.45in in that same time span.

inetdog

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

niel wrote: »

rainfall at 0.0 does not indicate if it was cloudy or not.

And the visibility does not necessarily tell you much either, since it is at a low altitude. I find the combination of 2 inches of rain with nine-mile visibility interesting though.
10 seems to be the max they list regardless of air quality.

mtdoc

Re: NY Times - Solar Power for Every Home

niel wrote: »

rainfall at 0.0 does not indicate if it was cloudy or not.

But 10 mi visibility means it was certainly not totally "socked in"

I recall several videos, pictures, etc of the days after the storm passed of clear skies while people waited in line for gasoline, waiting to have their cell phone charged.

There were some stories - I think one may have been discussed here - of portable solar stations on trailers being used to keep power on for a local hub, store, gas station, etc.

Certainly while the storm is happening solar power is useless. The big point is that power outages can last for days or weeks after the storm has passed. So - a back up system designed with 2 days of autonomy will likely provide your power needs through the storm and the extended post storm power outages. Sure, you may need to run a generator to bulk your batteries on occasion - as does almost anyone who lives off grid - but it does not negate the benefit of having such a system for a storm like Sandy IMO.

But gong back to the article in the OP - of course their analysis of just needing to take peoples grid tie solar and "wire it up right" to allow back up power is silly and just reflects lack of understanding of the realities of off grid or back up solar systems.

Still - I was encouraged by the fact that a mainstream paper like the NY times ran an editorial that at least gets people thinking about the vulnerability of a centralized grid and the possibility that distributed power production could help people to "weather" outages better. But yes, of course - storage is the issue and the reality is that we will never have 50 million households with battery back up systems..