Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Surfpath

Hi folks,
My L16RE-B batteries arrived 12 days ago at the supplier and are awaiting shipment in 48 hours time (then 10 more days transit time to me).

Just checking on an SG & voltage reading taken a few days ago (?) by the supplier (South Florida, so I guess temps roughly ~77f). Have to trust the suplier SG's, he's been very good with me to date.

Here's what I was told: "All batteries have a voltage of 6.31 - 6.36, SG 1.265 one battery had a slightly higher SG, Dec 2012 date code."

Sorta odd that the batteries arrived in Nov with a Dec date code, but Joe-B who knows these batteries, and has been helpful to me says this is OK.

Important: In March 2012 Trojan changed it's SG's for the RE line so that they matched their standard FLA line, so if you have L16REB's from before March the SG's will be different for these newer RE-B's. Specifically the stated 100% SOC is now 1.280.

I did not find a specific SG testing guide for the RE-B's on the Trojan site. However, when I checked out their standards FLA table on this link (Table 2), to me it looks like these batteries are between 90 and 100 SOC......sound OK?
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Testing.html

Given my timeframe (probably 2 weeks from today until they will next get a charge -an EQ so I am told - done by me). Do you have any other recommendations. On the RE-B spec sheet it states a self-discharge of "up to 4% a week." Also, do you have any other general recommendations about these batteries for the future?

I cannot ship these batteries back once they leave the USA so your measured advice is most valued.
Graciously,
SP

Reference:
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16REB_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=2#Charging
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/RE_BattMain4OffGridPVSys.pdf

Surfpath

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

I guess here is my question in a nutshell....

This batteries 100% SOC is supposed to be 1.280. A week ago they read 1.265, and they are next going to be charged in 2 weeks time after shipment. What woud you do?

What about a boost charge (?), before the shipment?

How would the battery supplier do this? (ie What charger settings)

I'm a little out of my water here. Help.
Thanks,
SP

BB.

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Usually ~1 month or less, then you would not need to have them do a recharge (keep SOC >~75% State of Charge). Also, this time of year, batteries should be pretty cold--which reduces self discharge too.

You could try sweet talking the battery vendor--if the batteries are going to be in his possession for a few more days and ask him to recharge them--Tell him that they could be sitting in a container/in customs for a while and you want to make sure they are well charged for the trip to reduce any chance of sulfation during the process.

They probably would just charge until they are bubbling well (ask them to not top off the cells too high so they they do not spill during shipment).

-Bill

Surfpath

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Surfpath wrote: »

I guess here is my question in a nutshell....

This batteries 100% SOC is supposed to be 1.280. A week ago they read 1.265, and they are next going to be charged in 2 weeks time after shipment. What woud you do?

What about a boost charge (?), before the shipment?

How would the battery supplier do this? (ie What charger settings)

I'm a little out of my water here. Help.
Thanks,
SP

Another update: I called Trojan today. One of the questions I asked their Tech support was: What was done differently to the battery since March 2013?

I got the following reply:

"The specific gravities were changed" [I guess this means something in the battery acid was adjusted], I think he said something along the lines of "more sulphate."

"The rated capacity of the battery may now be higher"...so the 370 amp hour L16 REB "may be closer to 400"

However he said this "won't affect watering" and that it "won't affect battery life."

--Not being a battery expert I couldn't go further into this, but I thought it would be good to post here.

I have heard good things about this battery, and about Trojans in general. So I trust that this model will continue to perform well, and have the same long potential service life that the premium "RE" line advertises.
-SP

ps. I asked my supplier to give the batteries a small boost charge before they are shipped to me. It may take a while for me to get my inverter/generator up in order to give the bank an EQ, and I dont want to have to worry about battery SOC while I get this done.

vtmaps

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Surfpath wrote: »

"The specific gravities were changed" [I guess this means something in the battery acid was adjusted], I think he said something along the lines of "more sulphate."

"The rated capacity of the battery may now be higher"...so the 370 amp hour L16 REB "may be closer to 400"

However he said this "won't affect watering" and that it "won't affect battery life."

I think that unless some other part of the battery chemistry was also changed, that can't be true. You don't get something for nothing... more capacity means shorter life.

--vtMaps

Photowhit

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Surfpath wrote: »

"The rated capacity of the battery may now be higher"...so the 370 amp hour L16 REB "may be closer to 400

I think you can actually have a bit more capacity by increasing SG, but I doubt this is what is going on.

I think reducing the SG, for renewable energy use, has been found to increase the life span of the battery, but the only way that would compute with increased battery capacity, is if they are changing the way they rate the battery. Some battery companies use a 24 or 100 hour discharge rate to measure their battery capacities.

Surfpath

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Hi BB,
I asked and the supplier is happy to charge 'em a little more, nice guy. He said he will "put them on the trickle charger overnight." I am sure I am being a little over protective, but as they say you got to "baby your batteries."

-SP

vtmaps

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Photowhit wrote: »

I think you can actually have a bit more capacity by increasing SG, but I doubt this is what is going on.

I think reducing the SG, for renewable energy use, has been found to increase the life span of the battery

I interpreted Surfpath's post to say that effective March 2012 Trojan raised the SG of their RE line.

--vtMaps

Surfpath

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

vtmaps wrote: »

I interpreted Surfpath's post to say that effective March 2012 Trojan raised the SG of their RE line.

--vtMaps

Yes, the SG was raised, per the Trojan RE web site:
" Trojan changed SG values of the Premium Line in March 2012 to avoid confusion over correct SG values for the Premium Line compared to the Signature Line however this change does not have any impact on life cycle performance. Trojan Premium Line batteries manufactured prior to March, 2012 have nominal S.G. of 1.260 while those produced after March 2012 have nominal S.G. of 1.280 [at 80 degrees f]. To determine the date of manufacture, refer to the date code on the negative terminal which consists of a letter and a number. The letter refers to the month and the number refers to the year. A2 = January 2012, B2 = February 2012 and C2 = March 2012 etc."

Vic

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Surrrette states that the Capacity difference between 1.265 and 1.280 SG electrolyte is 5% increase in C, and from 1.265 to 1.250 is a 5% decrease in C. So, I, too, would expect a small C increase and a slight reduction in service life.

The, "this change does not have any impact on life cycle performance", seems a bit obtuse to me. Will try to run it through the Clinton Language Processor to try to glean WHAT "is" really being said.

IMHO, almost all battery manufacturers are in the specmanship game. Many of us buy on numbers. Larger IS better. Am not referring to the OP, just in general more is always better to many of us.

My wish would be that there were RE batteries commonly available with 1.250 SG electrolyte. YMMV, Vic

stephendv

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Vic wrote: »

My wish would be that there were RE batteries commonly available with 1.250 SG electrolyte. YMMV, Vic

Hi Vic,

Most of the OPzS type batteries come with 1.24 electrolyte, like this one: http://www.alpha.com/Media/Documents/AlphaCellOPzSBATTERY.pdf
Enersys have a model that uses 1.255: http://www.enersysreservepower.com/productDocuments.asp?id=220&brandID=1

Blackcherry04

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

You can always order them shipped dry and put what ever you want in them. I have a customer that uses 1.285 aviation electrolyte and swears by it. Whatever floats your boat. Batteries are dying the day you install them, use them or lose them. Someone posted a formula once that Rolls gave them to raise or lower the SG by removing electrolyte and adding distilled water.

inetdog

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Someone posted a formula once that Rolls gave them to raise or lower the SG by removing electrolyte and adding distilled water.

I would guess that you lower the SG by removing electrolyte and adding distilled water and raise it by removing electrolyte and adding more concentrated H2SO4. (It is hard to remove distilled water and add electrolyte. If you figure out how, you can make a lot of money. :-))

Blackcherry04

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

inetdog wrote: »

I would guess that you lower the SG by removing electrolyte and adding distilled water and raise it by removing electrolyte and adding more concentrated H2SO4. (It is hard to remove distilled water and add electrolyte. If you figure out how, you can make a lot of money. :-))

lol.....I knew it when I typed it, good find. I meant to correct it and got distracted. Someone had posted the a Dealer had put in the wrong ( Higher ) electrolyte and he was trying to lower it. Usually when I commission a new set of batteries I will top them up to a known level where it's easy to get back to ( bottom of the vent well ) with electrolyte, whatever I can find @ autozone.

inetdog

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Usually when I commission a new set of batteries I will top them up to a known level where it's easy to get back to ( bottom of the vent well ) with electrolyte, whatever I can find @ autozone.

Sounds like a winner as long as it (the Autozone electrolyte) does not have any magic additives in it. The small amount you are adding will preserve the current SG better than water and the exact SG of what you add will not really be noticeable. Getting concentrated sulphuric acid could be more of a problem (Chemical supply rather than Autozone.)

But for the purist, depending on whether the cells were low because of spillage or initial low fill, or from evaporation, adding electrolyte or just water would the preferred thing to do.
If the manufacturer (or vendor if they get filled there) leaves the electrolyte level low for safer transportation, they may start with a high SG on the assumption that they will be topped off with just water. (I might be attributing too much common sense behavior to them, but it is possible.) And because the initial SOC is unknown, you don't even have enough information to tell what to add if you measure the initial SG. The more I think about it, the harder it gets. I guess sticking to one battery type from one vendor simplifies things. :-) )(or else just not thinking so much....)

Blackcherry04

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

inetdog wrote: »

Sounds like a winner as long as it (the Autozone electrolyte) does not have any magic additives in it. The small amount you are adding will preserve the current SG better than water and the exact SG of what you add will not really be noticeable. Getting concentrated sulphuric acid could be more of a problem (Chemical supply rather than Autozone.)

But for the purist, depending on whether the cells were low because of spillage or initial low fill, or from evaporation, adding electrolyte or just water would the preferred thing to do.
If the manufacturer (or vendor if they get filled there) leaves the electrolyte level low for safer transportation, they may start with a high SG on the assumption that they will be topped off with just water. (I might be attributing too much common sense behavior to them, but it is possible.) And because the initial SOC is unknown, you don't even have enough information to tell what to add if you measure the initial SG. The more I think about it, the harder it gets. I guess sticking to one battery type from one vendor simplifies things. :-) )(or else just not thinking so much....)

I'll ask them at Sam's Club next week when I pick up a set....... They don't even know what end the electrolyte goes in, most Battery people are at the low end of the scale, in case you haven't noticed.

inetdog

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I'll ask them at Sam's Club next week when I pick up a set....... They don't even know what end the electrolyte goes in, most Battery people are at the low end of the scale, in case you haven't noticed.

Noticed what? :-)

More seriously, if they add the electrolyte at Sam's Club to batteries which were shipped to them dry, then you can assume that they fill them all from the same supply of electrolyte and just are not very careful about how high they fill them.
And if separate containers of electrolyte are shipped with each battery, they probably just empty all of them into one tank and fill from there.

If they are shipped to them wet, then the place to ask would be at the manufacturer.

Rngr275

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

I also talked to the Trojan Tech's a couple times over the last couple months. Neither mentioned any SG of 1.280, but both did say that mine (which I think are the same as the ones we are discussing) should have an SG of 1.277 (which is between my 1.275 and 1.280 lines Obviously... so it will be a guess). Both of them told me that the batteries typically ship at ~80 %SOC. They chrge them up to that level just to make sure that they are functioning and that it is up to the customer to top them off. It has been said here often (and I did not heed their advice) Buy a hydrometer now and check the batteries immediately. It is truly the best way to know what the %SOC is.

inetdog

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Rngr275 wrote: »

Both of them told me that the batteries typically ship at ~80 %SOC. They chrge them up to that level just to make sure that they are functioning and that it is up to the customer to top them off.

Makes perfect sense for them. The 80% SOC will minimize sulphation for a few weeks to months. And the first 80% of charge goes in a lot faster than the last 20%. I am sure they do not want their production line bottlenecked by batteries sitting in chargers. :-)

Rngr275

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

inetdog wrote: »

Makes perfect sense for them. The 80% SOC will minimize sulphation for a few weeks to months. And the first 80% of charge goes in a lot faster than the last 20%. I am sure they do not want their production line bottlenecked by batteries sitting in chargers. :-)

I really wish I had known that up front and I take full responsibility for it also. My installer simply said that the battery voltage was at 50.8V which is a full charge. The voltage was at 50.8V but now I know that the SG could and probably was not at the specified 1.277.

Surfpath

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Rngr275 wrote: »

I really wish I had known that up front and I take full responsibility for it also. My installer simply said that the battery voltage was at 50.8V which is a full charge. The voltage was at 50.8V but now I know that the SG could and probably was not at the specified 1.277.

A small FWIW: My batteries were ordered from the supplier directly from Trojan and appeared to have ~ a 90% SOC a week after they arrived, as tested by the supplier.

Per the supplier (again, have to trust him):
"All batteries have a voltage of 6.31 - 6.36, SG 1.265 one battery had a slightly higher SG, Dec 2012 date code"

When I contacted Trojan tech the 100% charge values for this battery was discussed as being:
100% SOC 1.277 SG

ASIDE:
I'm picking at threads, and maybe I am not going to the right areas on the Trojan RE web page, but there seems to be inconsistency regarding the 100% SOC SG for the Trojan line of RE batteries:

It appears the Trojan RE website has not updated their "premium" charging specifications (see table 1 on this link)
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Testing.html

Persons who buy RE batteries after March 2012 who go to this web site may get confused and charge their batteries to 1.260 (~ 90% SOC in reality) when really they need to go higher. This is probably not the end of the world, but over the long run it may affect battery life.


Also Trojan RE FAQ #6 says:
"A hydrometer reading of 1.285 or greater indicates full charge for most Trojan batteries however for the Premium Line 1.280 or greater indicates full charge"

Then Trojan Tech as well as my battery supplier points me to the chart (#2) that states a 100% SOC is 1.277 (at 80 degrees f) ??

Again, picking at threads, and I believe this line of batteries have a great reputation, but it just feels a little off when the manufacturer does not have their figures straight.

They should be the ones with it correct from the start.
-SP

Vic

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Surfpath wrote: »

A small FWIW: My batteries were ordered from the supplier directly from Trojan and appeared to have ~ a 90% SOC a week after they arrived, as tested by the supplier.

Per the supplier (again, have to trust him):
"All batteries have a voltage of 6.31 - 6.36, SG 1.265 one battery had a slightly higher SG, Dec 2012 date code"

When I contacted Trojan tech the 100% charge values for this battery was discussed as being:
100% SOC 1.277 SG

ASIDE:
I'm picking at threads, and maybe I am not going to the right areas on the Trojan RE web page, but there seems to be inconsistency regarding the 100% SOC SG for the Trojan line of RE batteries:

It appears the Trojan RE website has not updated their "premium" charging specifications (see table 1 on this link)
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Testing.html

Persons who buy RE batteries after March 2012 who go to this web site may get confused and charge their batteries to 1.260 (~ 90% SOC in reality) when really they need to go higher. This is probably not the end of the world, but over the long run it may affect battery life.


Also Trojan RE FAQ #6 says:
"A hydrometer reading of 1.285 or greater indicates full charge for most Trojan batteries however for the Premium Line 1.280 or greater indicates full charge"

Then Trojan Tech as well as my battery supplier points me to the chart (#2) that states a 100% SOC is 1.277 (at 80 degrees f) ??

Again, picking at threads, and I believe this line of batteries have a great reputation, but it just feels a little off when the manufacturer does not have their figures straight.

They should be the ones with it correct from the start.
-SP

Hi Surf..

Did look at the linked info @ the Trojan site, and FAQ 6. The site needs Table 1, because users of the REBs made prior to 3/12 need this table.

The difference between 1.277 and 1.280 is small, AND the difference twix the two is very, very difficult do discern as read from the Hydrometer scale. IMHO, a careful person can see this difference on the Hydro, but it really this variation makes NO difference in the operation or health of the battery bank. It is good that you DO care.

Both 1.275 and 1.280 on most good quality Hydrometers have scale marks, and are easier to read consistantly. Variations is electrolyte levels, and the inability to consistantly add make-up water to a consistant level will probably have a similar effect of SG readings.

This battery bank should serve you well. FLA batteries are fairly forgiving, and the person maintaining the bank who cares about the fine points of this maintenance is often the most improtant aspect of continued battery health ... and so on. Good luck with the new bank. Beleive that Trojan recommends an EQ as a part of commissioning a new bank. And, of course, note electrolyte levels and RECORD SG and resting voltage readings before any charging in your Battery Log Book. YMMV, Vic

Surfpath

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Vic wrote: »

Hi Surf..

Did look at the linked info @ the Trojan site, and FAQ 6. The site needs Table 1, because users of the REBs made prior to 3/12 need this table.

The difference between 1.277 and 1.280 is small, AND the difference twix the two is very, very difficult do discern as read from the Hydrometer scale. IMHO, a careful person can see this difference on the Hydro, but it really this variation makes NO difference in the operation or health of the battery bank. It is good that you DO care.

Thanks Vic. After re-reading my post I realize that I am being too picky. I am being that protective Mother-hen battery owner, and I haven't even seen them yet. I'm looking forward to setting up the battery 'nest' though.

The 'good' news is that I pretty much maimed (maybe murdered) my first deep cell battery already. Got that out of the way.

A friend gave me a 5 year old 200+ amp/h 12v Trojan from his boat. I was going to set up some 12v lights to supplement the 2.6 amp drill battery. I set it up on a trickle charger at his house 2 months ago to keep it ticking. OCV was decent (12.41) when I set up the charger. I didn't take an SG (because then I really did not know how to take one).

Forward to tonight...I opened up the caps and saw that water was lowish in all of the cells with 2 cells having 1/4 inch of plate exposed. I had no idea that it would use up so much water (also perhaps my 1 amp trickle charger doesn't need to be on 100% time). Anyway the reason why I didnt hook it up to the 12v lights was that I don't have a charging mechanism set up yet at home.

What I'm thinking of doing is taking the charger off, waiting 6+ hours to do an OCV and take SG's to see the true state of charge. It'll be a nice practice run before the new batteries get here. It all underscores how important it is to take periodic time to check out those batteries.
-SP

BB.

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

Exposing plates is not a good idea either...

You either have to buy an expensive ($100+) trickle charger or put your present trickle charger on a lamp timer set for something like 1 hour per day of "on time"... I have done both and I don't boil batteries in storage anymore (basically cars that are not driven very often).

-Bill

Surfpath

Re: Anybody own Trojan L16REB's (esp. since March 2012)? Some tips?

BB. wrote: »

Exposing plates is not a good idea either...

You either have to buy an expensive ($100+) trickle charger or put your present trickle charger on a lamp timer set for something like 1 hour per day of "on time"... I have done both and I don't boil batteries in storage anymore (basically cars that are not driven very often).

-Bill

Bill-good, simple idea about the timer. Thanks for that.