New to solar exploring my options

sigsby
sigsby Registered Users Posts: 2
Hello everyone

I am looking for advice as to where I should begin with solar energy and how to proceed towards achieving my goal of being off the grid.

My name is Don and I would like to no longer be dependent on utility companies.

I live in northwestern Pennsylvania. I think my location is important because I live in the part of the USA where we can generate the least amount of solar energy. At least that's what I've read. Another of my concerns is snow. We get an an average of between 90 and 100 inches of snow every year. I don't think I want to climb on the roof every morning to remove snow from solar panels.

In my life so far the amount of experience I have with solar power is owning a solar calculator and an eco drive watch. Extensive I know.

My thought is to start small and grow. My wife suggested buying small solar charging devices for our electronics as a first step. Yes, I have my wife on board with this idea but she is skeptical and doesn't want to spend $50,000 for a $500 benefit. I have to agree. So, I am considering this a hobby for now. At least for now, until I have acquired a real working knowledge

So please give suggestions and ideas. Thank you in advance for your reply.

Comments

  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    Not to burst your bubble Don but off grid solar is expensive. First you have to determine the loads you want to replace. Is this for off grid emergency usage? Scaling solar is hard to do without a design to cover your loads. Grid tie solar is much more affordable but doesn't allow for power when the grid is down. Conservation is a great first step as well. Lowering you load profile will make your solar dollars much more effective.

    So your first step should be to determine your loads, perhaps your existing utility bill might be a place to start. This will allow you to determine how much battery you will need. From that you can determine how much solar you will need. People usually design for 2-3 days of no sun autonomy on sizing the battery. With off grid you then need a generator to backup the solar for those longer periods of low sun. You can look here to determine what you can get out of a solar system at your location.
    http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    Welcome to the forum, Don.

    There's good news and then there's bad news.

    The good news is you won't have to be climbing on the roof to clear snow off panels.

    The bad news is this is because it's probably a big waste of money to install solar. :p

    It's important to explain this right at the start: totally off-grid solar power is going to cost a lot in comparison to utility rates almost anywhere in the world. Think $1 per kW hour, possibly more. It can work in Pennsylvania; there's folks further North who use it year-round. The snow-on-panels problem is solved with having enough angle on them that it slides off. Some even put panels vertical to be sure there's something to charge with when the sun goes low in the sky (up here we drop to 6 hour days by Dec 21).

    Here's something you can do that will benefit you no matter what choices you make afterwards: buy a Kill-A-Watt meter and measure the power consumption of everything you plug in during normal operating conditions. You'll get a good idea how much power each thing uses and be able to identify any hogs in the house. Conservation will pay you back more per $ invested than anything else. And then if you do go solar, either grid-tie or off-grid, you benefit from not having such large power demands to satisfy to begin with.

    I'll hazard a guess you're one of those who sat in the cold and dark for a while after Sandy passed through the area.
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    Off-grid is what we would all like, but alas, is not practical for all but the most determined. One new option I think is great is the SMA on-grid inverter that has a separate off-grid output that can power one outlet (maybe 10 amps) during an outage. It does this without batteries! Only works while the sun is up of course and I gather you have to go out and flip a switch or something. But even this limited capability would be wonderful during a crises. Could keep a fridge going as well as a lot of miscellaneous loads. Significant outage capability at virtually no additional cost. I predict all inverters will be offering this eventually. Somebody at SMA is to be congratulated for thinking outside the battery box!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    Off grid solar power will never save you money over grid power--Roughly, you are looking at ~$1 to $2+ per kWH for off grid solar (cost of installation, maintenance, battery replacement every 5-10 years, inverter/charge controller replacement every 10+ years, etc.)... Compare with $0.10 to $0.20 per kWH for many locations in the US, off grid power is ~10x the cost.

    You best bet is extreme conservation--It is almost always less expensive/ a "better investment" to spend conservation (insulation, energy star appliances, heat pump AC/Hot Water, etc.) than to generate your own power.

    In California, and a few other states, we already have utility rates for heavy summer power use (Time of Use/Tiered billing) where we can pay $0.50 per kWH--And grid tied solar (solar array + GT inverter, no batteries or backup power if utility mains fail) can actually save money (if your utility supports customer friendly 1 year net metering or other such billing plan). If your utility does not support a good billing plan or even allow GT Solar--Then you are pretty much out of options to save money with solar.

    To help you measure loads--A small Kill-a-Watt type power meter is very handy to measure "plug in" loads (computers, kitchen appliances, TV/DVR/Digital Receivers, etc.). And you can get whole house type meters too.

    Add you are in an area for poor sun (and, even worse, if you have shading from trees/buildings/mountains in the 9am-3pm range)--Solar PV power is not usually a great option.

    There are some solar thermal projects (home heating, hot water pre-heat) that can be great Do It Yourself type projects (even in snow belt at times).

    For many people, if they have never looked at comprehensive power conservation before on their home, it is possible to save upwards of 50% on their utility bill with such measures--And have a more comfortable home too (better insulation means less drafts, less heat in home from appliances/lighting means cooler home in summer without A/C, double pane windows can reduce noise, etc.).

    Regarding electricity--For short term outages, conservation (i.e., minimum loads to survive--a fridge+a few lights+TV/Radio) can allow you to use a small generator (like a Honda eu2000i) and if you can store 20 gallons of gasoline (fuel stabilizer+rotate into car once a year) can give you upwards of 10 days of backup power (more if you siphon from family vehicles or use the stored gas to "bug out" in an emergency). If your issue is power failures from ice storms and such--And you have reliable natural gas--You could get a natural gas ready genset and skip the fuel storage issues.

    Small generators may use only a couple gallons of fuel per day--Large gensets can use upwards of 0.5-2 gallons of fuel per hour (or propane/natural gas equivalent). Besides the issues of storage and ability to find alternative fuel sources with a regional power failure, is simply the costs of fuel usage ($8 per day for efficient genset, vs $2-$8 per hour for a large 5-10kW genset).

    For longer outages (weeks to months), off grid solar can be a big help (with backup genset support). But, it can be an expensive solution. In all things power--It really depends on your power needs. If you have central heat/oil heat, you need power to keep the home livable/pipes from freezing, then you need to look at how much power your heating system draws (say 500 watts * 10 hours per day = 5kW per day). Add a refrigerator at 1-2 kWH per day and a desktop computer at another 2kW per day--You are looking at nearly 10kWH per day (300 kWH per month)--That is a pretty good sized solar power system in an area with lots of sun. If you have natural gas/propane wall heaters (or even just as a backup), you needs can be much less.

    To set expecations, a "small solar" system to supply lights/radio/TV/small water pump is around 1kWH per day (30 kWH per month). A large enough system to supply a near normal electric home (fridge, washing machine, well pump, laptop, lightning, TV, etc.--But using natural gas/propane for cooking/hot water/heating) is around 3.3 kWH per day (100 kWH per month). A "normal home" with lots of conservation around 10 kWH per day (300 kWH per month)... And "the average" North American home is around 1,000 kWH per month.

    Power usage is highly personal. We do not push conservation to "be green"--We push it as a way to reduce power costs (most of us are pretty cheap here).

    So--A suggested plan:
    • Measure your current loads and power costs (Kill-a-Watt meter, whole house power meter, etc.)
    • Conservation (reduce power costs, turn of stuff when not used, etc.)
    • Identify how much power you need in an emergency (by season--winter/summer, both for power usage and based on amount of sun available)
    • Design system on paper (perhaps several different solutions to cost out and figure the best for your needs). 1kW per day to experiment. 3.3 kWH per day if you want to supply fridge and a few other heavier loads.
    • Install battery bank+off grid inverter+AC battery charger (AC mains/Generator powered backup). Get small backup genset+fuel storage (if needed)
    • Add solar array (as time/money/need permits)
    • Once solar array is installed, you can move some loads (computer, TV, etc.) to solar array (as capacity, seasonal sun permits) and get experience
    • Rinse, Repeat

    Note that "growing/expanding" an off grid power system is quite difficult and can be expensive... Need new/larger batteries and inverter(s) usually if there is a significant increase in power needs (roughly, expanding a system from 1 kWH to 3 kWH per day system usually needs a higher voltage battery bank, so new batteries, new higher votlage inverter and backup AC Battery chargers, etc.).


    For conservation/solar thermal projects and other general information/links, this thread has a lot to read:

    Working FAQ for conservation/solar power


    All of this is just a shot in the dark and my humble opinion--Just intended as a starting point for discussion and overlay your expectations.

    Your questions/observations?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    hi don,
    i am familiar with the situation as far as sunshine goes in your area. it isn't quite as bad near the shore as it is further inland like around interstate 80, but it is still viable to do even there as solarvic can attest. pittsburgh isn't noted for its abundant sunshine either, but tends to be a bit better than up there and i saw a rarity recently when i saw a 10 day forecast that did not include rain.

    anyway, if you would like to charge some items up that will be a good use of it, but understand that solar generally will give around 5hrs of good charge time (give or take with weather and time of year) and many items to be charged typically want upwards of 16hrs to charge. some items will also require higher voltages to charge, such as a 18v power drill, and a typical 12v solar arrangement will not suffice to charge that so it comes to be that many opt to use an inverter to do this and it should be a sine wave inverter as some of the ac adapters do not like the cheaper modsine inverters.

    i guess what i'm trying to say is that some research and planning would be needed to do this even for a hobby. i do hope you aren't in a hurry because this research and planning takes time and usually involves a degree of learning on your part along the way. in all cases you have to know what the load requirements are, ie for the things you need to run requirements of power and for how long. also accounting for days of bad weather must be taken into account and we often term this as days of autonomy or the number of days you can continue to operate your designated loads without solar charging. keep in mind that for lead acid batteries you don't want to drain them beyond 50% as they aren't meant to be drained all of the way as many think rechargeable batteries to be.

    anyway start with what you may want to power by solar and find out the power required for them and for how long they would need to be run for. if the items are dc and not ac then there are ways to determine more accurately what the power requirement is, but we will cross that bridge later if need be. for ac power requirements the killawatt meter is invaluable as it can show not only the power required in watts, but also voltamps and kilowatt hours when the meter is left on the load over a time period which helps determine the power you would need over a typical 24hr day.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    Don, Who is your power co.? I live in western Pa. west of I-79 and about 25 miles north of I-80. I wouldn,t go off grid. Grid tie is the way to go. First Energy only charges me $10.32 per month with no energy use. I make enough solar electric to cover my use. was only 2 months last winter I had too buy about $30.00 worth in total after I used what I had credited to my account. I added a few more panels so I should have all energy use covered. Since I live in a double wide I didn,t want solar panels on my roof. I have top of pole mounts. Can get to them easy to clear off the snow with an extendable pole with a window washing brush. There is a solar system a couple of miles from me that has 72 185 watt panels mounted on ground mounts. I know of a few other systems in the area but all of them are grid tied. Solarvic
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    Simply out, off gird will cost twice as much to install, and produce half the usable power, resulting in low that is ~4 times as expensive,, and even the grid tie is more expensive than grid powe per kwh.

    Don't spend a nickle on PV until you have done EVERYTHING to reduce your loads. Just now, LEDs are coming into thier own price and quality of light wise. We changed out all our CFLs for LEDs and reduced our lighting load by over half for example (down by over 90% compared to conventional bulbs!)

    Tony
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    guys,
    he indicated a wish to experiment at this time as a kind of hobby, but if he ever gets serious about it, i do agree with you guys for him to not go off grid. gt selling with battery backup is what he may want if not a straight gt system if he can tough it out in other ways during outages.
  • sigsby
    sigsby Registered Users Posts: 2
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    I think I came to the right place. Thanks to everyone who responded.

    I've already learned a lot.

    1. The first step is measuring my power consumption. First at a global level and then getting specific data on individual appliances.
    2. Make changes to conserve energy
    3. Grid systems are different than off the grid systems and off the grid costs more
    4. There are systems in this region of the country that are working

    A little bit more about my situation. My current residence is meant to be temporary. We live here for the schools. In four or five years we will be selling our current home and purchasing. One more suitable to our needs. I always make pretty major changes to my new homes before I move in. So, I will have the luxury of being able to choose a location suitable to solar/wind power at that time. Since I do all of my own renovations I am hoping to be able to install my new system at that time.

    I am encouraged by the feedback I've received. If I modify my goals slightly this can become a reality.

    This interest is not in response to power outage caused by Sandy. We got a little bit of wind but those storms lack any real punch once they get to us. Getting off the grid has been an interest of mine for years. My first area of research was natural gas. We are sitting on top of one of the largest deposits of natural gas in the world. I don't like how they are getting to it. They are using fracking methods that I really believe pollute water supplies. It would really be a shame to buy a nice piece of land and move off of public water only to lose that resource.

    Thanks again. I am certain I will be asking more questions as I continue with my research.

    Don
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    in #3 there is a hybrid system that i mentioned and may have gone misunderstood by you. it is a grid tied system that has battery backup. this has the ability to sell to the grid and still run things during an outage regardless of the outage cause. there are many things that cause outages besides hurricanes.

    anyway, the straight grid tied system is the most efficient and will not employ batteries for power backup so when the grid goes down, so do you. this is also the cheapest route.

    going all the way off grid is the highest cost to you and the least efficient as you now need to insure under all circumstances that you will have power.

    that is for when you are more serious about your endevours into solar. for a smaller off grid thing such as a few hundred watt hours powering whatever loads employing a smaller pv and battery system with cc and inverter is fine to do. you could start off with the pwm type cc and modsine inverter and then upgrade these items to mppt and sine wave to show yourself the differences. after this upgrade you may wish to add another pv and go for the same make and model so as to employ series or parallel showing you the advantages and disadvantages of both.

    as to the next house you should also look for good southerly views, especially low to the horizon for the winter, to insure some solar benefits, but the wider the unobstructed views the better the solar production that can be harvested. if you have or will have a gas well then you may opt to discuss this with solarvic as he may be able to give you some pointers.
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    Don, I do have a gas well that is about 5000 foot verticle. When I got my well a few years ago no one knew about the Utica shale and the company that leased my land only paid $10 an acre. So my nei ghbors that din,t have a lease got about $4000.00 an acre and 18.6% rolality for signing a lease. I get nothing for sign up bonus because I have a well that is in production and the original leaseholder sold the lease rights under his wells. If they drill I will still get 12.5% and he will get anything above that. Tou might have a hard time buying any land around here and get the lease rights. There are investers that buy up farms, keep the minrtal rights and resell the land. The conventional wells like I have give you free gas for your own use. The utica shale wells have wet gas and you cant use it at your home. My gas well is only 300 feet from my house. It didn,t affect my water any. Most of the fracking stories are fabricated by the EPA. So I wouldn,t worry too much about fracking, I,m not. Solarvic
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New to solar exploring my options

    Sigsby,

    You really hve come to the right place. Since you are planning on moving and perhaps building in a few years, spend the time wisely learning as much as you can,, without spring a dime. This way you avoid the single most expensive pit fall of solar,, that is the "ready, fire, aim " syndrome. That is, buying stuff before you really know how and why you are going to use it.

    Keep in touch, and ask lots of questions,, there are some vey smart folks here who are more than willing to help,

    Tony