could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

StealthyNinja

Hello.

We have a Gould JRS10FR 1.0 HP Jet Pump wired for 230 AC

Our well is 80'. Pipe diameter seems to be 3" (i've noticed a standard of 4" so I'm confused as to why it's 3"... maybe to make the shallow well pump reach a deeper head?)

We have a large barn coming up and are looking to invest in transferring the pump to solar power.

As I've read through other posts, I've noticed that I'll need a controller, inverter, panels and a battery bank.

We are going to make our own panels with tabbed cells (still deciding on 3x6 or 6x6) and spare/scrap materials we have for the frame and mounts.

Battery bank...
with the 230v AC it uses lower amperage compared to 115 ... I'm guessing I'd need a paralleled series to get this to work with 4 batteries? (we were considering gel cells as we have a couple 12v already for marine equipment we no longer use/have)

Panels...
I get the calculations on adding cells in a series to produce more volts, then in parallel for watts/amps (at least I hope I do) I have no problem creating whatever sized panel(s) we need to get the job done. although I have some more research into making a panel.

Controller/Inverter... really confused on what I'd need as far as ... well either of them.

So, we live in Old Town, FL 32680... almost on the same line as Daytona Beach
There are 4 people in the house... dishes every day... 4x the use of toiletries... about 5 months out of the year we have some veggies growing that we water (1/4 acre garden) in the morning. If I had to guess we use the pump about 3-4 hours a day on a heavy day.

So what would yal recommend as far as power of the panel(s), depth of battery bank, and the controller/inverter needed to pump us water with the pump stated above.

I'm really a newbie, as if you couldn't tell. I've only been doing research for a few weeks now... I've been reading forums galore trying to learn the in's and out's ... not sure if it's just information overload or bad study habits but figuring out what I need for the AC powered pump vs. the DC powered pumps is seeming to be a bit more difficult to figure out what I need.

A big Thanks! in advance for any help, pointers, other posts or advice you are willing to give.

StealthyNinja

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

ok so i just found another page on http://www.freesunpower.com/system_sizing.php#Explanation

P=E*I (duh)

so 230V * (max rating of) 10.2 Amps = 2346Watts worth of solar panels?

Ken Marsh

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

You have a tough one Stealthy.

I suspicion you have a surface mounted deep well jet pump.
And I hope your stated amperage is for the 120 volt connection since that is too much amperage for a 1 hp 220 v motor.
The well probably is a 2" with an adapter head for the two pipe system since this looks like a 3" pipe at the top.
This system uses the well casing for the return flow and a center pipe for the water going down to the jet
which is at the bottom of the well.

If the system actually is a shallow well jet like you say you are not too bad off.
But for the last several years, shallow well jets are not allowed code wise in most areas.

Deep well jets are very inefficient.
You would be better off to convert to a submersible pump than buy the solar components to run a deep well jet pump.
This means a new 4" well.
I know,... but it still would be less costly than installing a solar system to supply a deep well jet.
A third hp submerged pump will throw more water that a 1 hp deep well jet.

BB.

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

Welcome to the forum.

I will take a fit hits at your questions (I am Grid Tied with city water--So I cannot give you a whole bunch of information):

StealthyNinja wrote: »

Hello.

We have a Gould JRS10FR 1.0 HP Jet Pump wired for 230 AC

Our well is 80'. Pipe diameter seems to be 3" (i've noticed a standard of 4" so I'm confused as to why it's 3"... maybe to make the shallow well pump reach a deeper head?)

In general, Jet Pumps are not very efficient but are cheap and good for shallower wells.

How deep is your well, and how many GPM/Gallons per day do you need to pump.

Regarding 3" well--It would probably be better if it was 4"--it is possible to get a pump stuck in a smaller well if the power cable or lifting rope gets dropped down the well and wrapped around the pump.

We have a large barn coming up and are looking to invest in transferring the pump to solar power.

Solar power is not cheap (10x your current power costs per kWH are not unusual for an Off Grid power system (panels, controllers, battery bank, inverters, etc.) if you include maintenace (electronics last ~10+ years, battery banks ~5-15 years depending on quality of batteries and how well you treat them--and there is the occasional "oh darn" when somebody left a bunch of loads on and killed the battery bank).

As I've read through other posts, I've noticed that I'll need a controller, inverter, panels and a battery bank.

Really depends on your needs. Yes, you can do the Full Off Grid Solar Power system (panels, inverter, controllers, battery bank) if you want power 24x7... However, you can also buy solar pumps that run directly from solar panels (no batteries/inverters/charge controllers). Generally you pump to a tank/holding pond, and then pump from there to point of use with a small DC or AC pump from a battery system.

Grundfos and others make pumps that will run from "anything" (solar panels, DC battery bank, AC power, AC genset, etc.). They are not cheap (probably north of $1,700 for submersible pump) each... But the cost of Solar Panel only power is about 1/4 the cost of the battery/inverter/etc. power--So if you can store the water for use--You can save a lot of money.

We are going to make our own panels with tabbed cells (still deciding on 3x6 or 6x6) and spare/scrap materials we have for the frame and mounts.

I am all for DIY type projects--But DIY solar photo-voltaic panels usually do not last when exposed to weather. It is very difficult to solder and seal the cells. And many folks try to use Plexiglas and wood construction--Which is a fire hazard (as well as very unreliable).

Also, many of the bare cells people buy are rejects from solar fabricators... There can be problems with cells (defects) that can cause local overheating and such.

Battery bank...
with the 230v AC it uses lower amperage compared to 115 ... I'm guessing I'd need a paralleled series to get this to work with 4 batteries? (we were considering gel cells as we have a couple 12v already for marine equipment we no longer use/have)

Watts is Watts... 1,200 watts is 100 amps at 12 volts, 50 amps at 24 volts, 10 amps at 120 volts, 5 amps at 240 volts... All the same power, all the same "weight" of lead acid batteries to run.

However, running higher voltages does allow you to use smaller diameter copper wire and send the power longer distances.

But, don't get ahead of yourself yet. Do a paper design before you buy any (more) components. It takes a fair amount of planning to build out a "useful and reliable" solar power system (and cost effective too).

Panels...
I get the calculations on adding cells in a series to produce more volts, then in parallel for watts/amps (at least I hope I do) I have no problem creating whatever sized panel(s) we need to get the job done. although I have some more research into making a panel.

If you want to try and build a panel to learn--By all means, please do (and we can supply some links that may help).

If these panels are intended to be functional, used where fire/reliability is important (unattended operations, mounted on a roof, etc., and to save money)--I highly suggest you walk away from that project. With solar panels at less than $2 a watt this days (vs $10 a want a decade ago)--It is usually not even worth buying the bare cells, glass, backing, making an oven/vacuum fixture, etc....

Controller/Inverter... really confused on what I'd need as far as ... well either of them.

Wait.

So, we live in Old Town, FL 32680... almost on the same line as Daytona Beach
There are 4 people in the house... dishes every day... 4x the use of toiletries... about 5 months out of the year we have some veggies growing that we water (1/4 acre garden) in the morning. If I had to guess we use the pump about 3-4 hours a day on a heavy day.

We need details... Depth of well (and water level), GPM pumping rate, can you pump only when the sun is shining (cheaper/more reliable system vs pumping 24x7/anytime battery based system).

And, are you planning on running your home from this system too (lights, laptop computers, TV, washer/drier, etc.). Is this an emergency backup system or a 12 months a year off grid "going green" project?

So what would yal recommend as far as power of the panel(s), depth of battery bank, and the controller/inverter needed to pump us water with the pump stated above.

In the end, full off grid power is around $1-$2+ per kWH, or almost 10x the cost of power from your utility.

So if you want off grid power, conservation is going to be your friend (it is almost always cheaper to conserve a Watt than to generate a Watt).

Using very efficient in well pump vs an induction motor jet pump, using a VFD (variable frequency drive) and a two or three phase pump (adjust pump RPM to needed GPM, also provides soft start--reduce starting surge current of your pump), etc.

Even for a modest size pump/pumping requirement--This is not a "simple" project to do well. It will require a lot of reading on your side, and perhaps some help with a knowledgeable local well company, etc...

I'm really a newbie, as if you couldn't tell. I've only been doing research for a few weeks now... I've been reading forums galore trying to learn the in's and out's ... not sure if it's just information overload or bad study habits but figuring out what I need for the AC powered pump vs. the DC powered pumps is seeming to be a bit more difficult to figure out what I need.

A big Thanks! in advance for any help, pointers, other posts or advice you are willing to give.

Start by knowing your loads (measuring kWH usage, peak watts, etc.). Then conservation (reduce power use, get the most efficient versions of appliances/well pumps). Finally, we can then start talking about the supporting equipment (solar power system).

It is like buying a backup genset--You can get a 20kW unit that will power everything in your home--But it will use 2-4 gallons of fuel per hour (at $4.00 per gallon--Yikes). Or you can reduce your loads, make sure that some loads run alone (microwave and water pump not on at the same time), and you can get a 1,600 watt genset that will run 4-9+ hours on a gallon of gasoline.

There are easy tools to use to measure the loads of appliances (Kill-a-Watt type meter for ~$30). Unless you have a smallish well pump (120 VAC on 15 amp branch circuit), you probably will need the next larger (and $$) class of power meter to measure those loads.

I would suggest getting the Kill-a-Watt meter just so you can measure AC loads around your home and see how much you use and what affects the power usage (and get used to the Watts, Watt*Hours, kWH, volts, amps, VA, Power Factor, etc.).

Up to this point--most people have "outsourced" that knowledge to their power company. If you are going to generate your own power, you need to learn the basics very quickly to move forward (the math is pretty simple--just learning the terms).

-Bill

waynefromnscanada

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

Having lived my life with domestic water pumps, I have to totally agree with the others. Going solar to run a 1 hp jet pump is going to be a huge undertaking, and a very expensive one. If you must run a pump on solar, then definitely look at other pumps etc, but it will still be very expensive.

Ken Marsh

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

"Using very efficient in well pump vs an induction motor jet pump, using a VFD (variable frequency drive) and a two or three phase pump (adjust pump RPM to needed GPM, also provides soft start--reduce starting surge current of your pump), etc."

Bill,
We really appreciate your resourceful replies.
Note your reference to 2 phase VFDs.
Is this a VFD for the regular PSC well motor?
I was wondering why nobody made such but maybe it is here.
If this is the case, I would appreciate a reference to the people supplying these.
Have an immediate application.
Thanks, Ken

BB.

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

To be honest, I am not sure.

The "two phase motor" is really a motor with an external (top of the well) motor start (run?) capacitor. The capacitor causes the one leg to have a ~90 degree current lead.

You need access to at least two windings (three wires for "two phase" or "three phase" motors) so the VFD can create the rotating field for starting. Once the motor is turning, you can run a three phase motor on a single phase (less power of course--I used to make rotating phase converters by taking a three phase motor, pulling the shaft with a "rope starter" to get it turning, then hit it it with single phase power to get it up to speed and generate the other two phases. You can buy/build capacitor start units with "potential relay" and a capacitor too).

A pump with two wires and the starting cap at the bottom of the well--you cannot access the third lead. I believe one or two people here find the external capacitor units also have less starting surge too (and you can "adjust" the capacitor size for you needs).

I was trying to be very "short" in my first answer because there was a lot of information and, depending on the original poster's needs, we could have further discussions on which path they may like to follow.

Ken, I am not sure how to answer your question--Here are two threads--The first one, you commented in--so you are probably already aware of that one:

WELL PUMP and Inverter QUESTION
Wind/solar for large scale pumping etc (out of my depth!)

-Bill

BB.

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

Don't know anything about these guys--But here are some more links for PSC motors:

http://www.invertek.co.uk/product_optidrive_e21.aspx

Vacon, Inc. - Variable-speed AC drives (US site?)
Vacon - a leading supplier of variable speed AC drives

Here is one site that may have some useful information--especially for somebody new to the subject:

www.phaseconverterinfo.com

-Bill

Ken Marsh

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

Thanks Bill,
It looks like Invertek is doing the 2 phase thing.
Even though they are calling it single phase.
Standard VFDs use three phase motors with equal phases spaced 120 degrees.
PSC motors are designed with a main phase and one other phase spaced at 90 degrees.
This is since the capacitor shifts the phase 90 degrees.
The capacitor phase usually runs 30% to 50% the current of the main phase.
Exceptions to this are PSC motors made to be easily reversed such as Garage door motors or TV antenna rotator motors.
They use two equal windings spaced 90 degrees.
It would be nice if somebody would make a VFD for PSCs.
There are billions of PSC motors out there.
Most all refrigeration and well pumps are this way.

I will give them a call tomorrow.

BB.

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

Good Luck Ken. And please let us know what you find out... My own knowledge in this area (VFD's) is very limited and I would like to have more information to supply to the next folks that ask about well pumps.

-Bill

PS: I know that two phase is not the correct way to name the motor--But I wanted to be clear how this worked compared with three phase motors.

By the way, there should be a heck of a lot of fractional 3 phase motors out there too... Would any work for you?

Ken Marsh

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

Don't cut your self short Bill.
We all have enough knowledge to get our selves in trouble.

As for the number of phases, It seems simple.
You either have poly-phase or you don't.
If you don't, you call it single phase.
If you do, the next thing you need to know is how many phases and phase spacing.
Keep in mind that 180 degree phase spacing is not poly-phase.
Two circuits with 180 degree phase relationship are the same phase.

You would think that there would be a lot of three phase motors available.
But in reality it seems to be getting harder and harder to get them.
Since Copper and Iron got valuable they are being scraped out big time.
Same thing with distribution transformers.
Craigslist.com has been the place to get motors since they are local.
But I just about depleted our local cragslist in converting one small shop.
I am trying to score a half Hp three phase pump motor.
Right now there is only one on ebay and they want $250 + shipping.
A couple years ago there were dozens available.
Just try to buy a three phase refrigeration compressor now.
Again, a few years back they were all over the place.
This is why it would be nice to get PSC versions of the VFD.

I did call Invertek. That was an exercise.
Don't know why they bother to have reps that don't know their product.
They say they will get back with answers.
Will let you know if this happens.

Ken Marsh

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

More on Invertek:
Tim Perfetto did call back.
He is very knowledgeable and nice.
What they are doing is supplying the motor with variable frequency and variable voltage.
This is being done single phase.
You still use the same capacitor if the motor has one.
Some non-cap motors such as shaded pole will also work.
It is two wire in and two wire out.

This is a couple of steps improvement on the old SCR motor controls we used to use with universal motors.
They are changing both effective voltage and the frequency.
They start the motor with no, or at least low inrush which would be more compatible with solar systems.

You get no efficiency improvement at full power but if you do not need full power you can dial it back and pick up energy savings that way.
He says they are selling "boat loads" of these devices.
Still no info on where to get them or on prices.

Texas Wellman

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

If that goulds pump is like all the others I'm familiar with it takes a 56-J nema motor which is a 56-C with a 5/8"s shaft with I think 7/16" threads. For comparison the regular motor is an AO Smith T1102 (don't know what they call it now that Century bought out AO Smith). Every goulds jet pump that I am aware of takes that 56J motor. Good luck finding a 3-phase 56J motor or similar. I ran into the same dead end RE: a jet pump run from solar.

Texas Wellman

Re: could use knowledge - using Gould jet pump - transfering from 230vAC to ? DC

Oh, and by the way, since you may have a 3" well I highly suggest you abandon any notion of using the jet pump and go with the Grundfos SQ Flex. The pump/motor unit will cost you about $1800-2200 depending on the model and source. You'll need at least 3-~30V panels of your choice wattage to get 90VDC to the pump. I prefer the 180-200 Watt variety. The model and power requirement really depend on the conditions (depth to water, pressure required, etc). Also the grundofs is plug and play for A/C power so you can install it and run it like a regular pump until you are ready for the solar conversion.

Good Luck!!