Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

bebey
bebey Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
in Solar Water Pumping #1
I am looking for a 110v well pump to run a small 2 bedroom two person cabin off-grid. I currently have a Xantrex MSW 2424 inverter (2400 watts, 40AC surge amps). I'm familiar with the soft-start grundos, but wanted to know if there was any other less expensive option, perhaps a standard 1/2 - 3/4 hp that could be run off the inverter? I've seen some of the threads about a capaciter that can allow a slow start but I'm not certain how that works or how to do it, or even if it is applicable to this situation. The well is 190 feet deep, but the water table starts approx 50-60 feet from the surface depending on time of year and rain. I will want to run it into a pressure tank approx 45-50psi.

I've never installed a typicaly well pump so not sure what is involved in that either, but also wondering if the black flexible tubing I used to connect to my sureflow 9300 would work on a standard well. It is easy to work with. I am also uncertain how to deal with start-up torque, etc.

Appreciate any advice/help/insight.

Regards and have a great day.
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Comments

  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #2
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    Some AC well pumps have problems with MSW inverters, and at the least they would draw from 15-30% more power than from a sine wave source. In many of the "soft start" pumps, the slow start is controlled by digital electronics, which might be confused by the MSW also.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    Actually your Xantrex 2424 would probably start and run most standard 1/2 HP centrifugal pumps. The lack of pure sine wave will mean the pump will work a bit harder.
    I use a standard 1/3 HP pump (these don't seem to be available anymore) on my VFX3524 and it doesn't even notice. The running Watts is over 800, though.

    The thing you really have to do is figure out what pump you need to supply the water, then figure out how to get the power to run it. Once you know your pumping needs you'll be able to look at pump options and what ones will use the least amount of power. The ShurFlo 110 VAC pumps have fairly low start and run power demands, but it comes at a cost of lift, pressure, and flow rate. This is going to be true of every pump: there's no way around the physics. The centrifugal pumps draw big because they flow 10 GPM, can lift 25', and push 50 psi.

    Now about that well. 190 feet is pretty deep. With the water table 60 feet down that is still deep. Having to lift from greater than 50' is considered "deep well" and a standard centrifugal pump will have trouble with this. Things like the ShurFlo are eliminated because they don't have that much lift capacity. However, a standard 1/2HP deep well pump should work.

    If the tubing you're using now is poly of the potable variety that's the same stuff used for most any pump install; no one uses hard pipe these days it seems. But for the pipe, the pump, the well, and the install local rules & regulations are going to come into play and you will have to conform to them.

    No doubt others will have additional insight.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    Most 1/2 hp "off the shelf" submersible pumps produce 100 PSI at their output. So if you have the pressure switch at you're tank set to shut off the pump at 50 PSI, that leaves 50 PSI to lift water from the level of the water in the well (no matter how deep the pump is), up to the level of the tank. Since one PSI will lift water roughly 2 feet, it should be good for up to an 80 foot lift and still have some extra to come and go on.
    You only count from the surface of the water in it's worst case, (as when a lot of water is used and the water level drops). The level of the pump doesn't mapper as long as it's below the lowest water level so it can't suck air when the water drops.
    Also, there are two different motors on these off the shelf pumps. One is 2 wire + ground, the other is 3 wire + ground and has an external starter box that normally mounts near the tank. This latter type with the external starter box, is easier to start on inverters than the two wire type. The surge isn't as great as with the two wire units.
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  • bebey
    bebey Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    The pump I linked to below says it has output of 50psi. I'm guessing that if it is pumping against a 40 foot head (well is 190', I plan on pump at 100', water table at 60') that number will be reduced even less, and would not be able to pressurize my tank to 48psi. Am I misunderstanding something or do I need to be looking for a different pump? Thanks for the help!

    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100168728/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=well+pump&storeId=10051#.UHT7A1H4V8E
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    bebey wrote: »
    The pump I linked to below says it has output of 50psi. I'm guessing that if it is pumping against a 40 foot head (well is 190', I plan on pump at 100', water table at 60') that number will be reduced even less, and would not be able to pressurize my tank to 48psi. Am I misunderstanding something or do I need to be looking for a different pump? Thanks for the help!

    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100168728/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=well+pump&storeId=10051#.UHT7A1H4V8E

    Pumps are controlled by pressure switches. The pump will try to run until the pressure at the switch reaches the 'OFF' set point. The pressure switches are adjustable. 50 psi is excellent pressure for a well system, and not actually necessary. If you have it set there and the pump runs too long, turn the pressure down. You don't gain much water volume/effect from 10 psi but you do use more power if the pump runs and extra 5 minutes to attain it.

    My system at the cabin is set for 45 psi off. It fills the 80 gallon pressure tank in six minutes. For me, this works fine (opportunity load run midday when batteries are full and the sun still shining).
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    If you're max pump output pressure is 50 PSI, it will take roughly 30 of those PSI to bring the water up the 60 feet to the surface. That would leave a total, max of just 20 PSI for you're pressure tank, with absolutely nothing to spare and you could easily run into a situation where you're pump couldn't get the pressure up to the 20 PSI at the tank where the pressure switch is normally located. You might have to reduce the pressure switch setting to 10 PSI max to be sure the switch will always shut off the pump. At just 10 PSI, the flow at your kitchen faucet isn't much, and it won't work with washing machines, or most toilets either.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    It is more likely that is the maximum operating pressure for a system using that pump, rather than the last gasp of pressure the pump is able to put out.
    At least I sincerely hope so.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    10 PSI at your kitchen faucet isn't much, won't work with washing machines, or most toilets either.

    I have gravity water to my basement and use a shurflo to pump water to a 35 gallon open tank in the attic. Gravity from that tank proides about 4.5 psi at the toilet (which works fine, but takes a couple of minutes to refill). Pressure is about 4 psi at the washing machine (which works fine, but takes almost 20 minutes to fill). All faucets, showerheads, etc have their flow restricters removed and work fine.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I have gravity water to my basement and use a shurflo to pump water to a 35 gallon open tank in the attic. Gravity from that tank proides about 4.5 psi at the toilet (which works fine, but takes a couple of minutes to refill). Pressure is about 4 psi at the washing machine (which works fine, but takes almost 20 minutes to fill). All faucets, showerheads, etc have their flow restricters removed and work fine.

    --vtMaps
    You're lucky, as many of the newer washers and toilets share similar fill valve designs that use water pressure to operate a pressure assisted diaphragm valve, and require more pressure for proper operation. I guess it might also depend on if one is OK with 20 minutes to fill a washer. :D
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    You're lucky, as many of the newer washers and toilets share similar fill valve designs that use water pressure to operate a pressure assisted diaphragm valve, and require more pressure for proper operation. I guess it might also depend on if one is OK with 20 minutes to fill a washer. :D
    And don't even think of trying to use an automatic ice maker. You will get incredibly small cubes. :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    I think the info in that chart means that the pump can pump 816 gallons per hour at 50 psi. I have the 2 wire 3/4 hp version of that pump with a 40/60 psi switch. My magnum 4024 has no problem starting the pump. Pump is 5 years old now.with no problems. solarvic
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    solarvic wrote: »
    I think the info in that chart means that the pump can pump 816 gallons per hour at 50 psi. I have the 2 wire 3/4 hp version of that pump with a 40/60 psi switch. My magnum 4024 has no problem starting the pump. Pump is 5 years old now.with no problems. solarvic

    The info in the chart seems self-contradictory. I would try to find the actual data from the manufacturer instead.
    Note that the maximum head is listed as 40 feet, while the pumping depth is listed as 150 feet! But an output pressure of 50 psi at the pump would correspond to a static head of about 110 feet with zero pressure at the discharge.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    Here is chart from flotec. http://www.flotecpump.com/ResidentialProduct_fl_hw_4S_FP3212.aspx Solarvic
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  • bebey
    bebey Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    solarvic wrote: »
    Here is chart from flotec. http://www.flotecpump.com/ResidentialProduct_fl_hw_4S_FP3212.aspx Solarvic

    So the home depot lists it at 110v while the link you provided says 230v. It's a mass conspiracy by the political elite to confuse us. Well played shadowy elite, well played... :)
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #16
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    They appear to have both a 2 wire 110 pump and several 2 wire or 3 wire 230 volt pumps.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    BB. wrote: »
    They appear to have both a 2 wire 110 pump and several 2 wire or 3 wire 230 volt pumps.

    -Bill

    The 3 wire pumps are definitely easier to start on a limited power supply/inverter. The difference is the 3 wire units have capacitor start, capacitor being located in the external control box. Shame they don't have a 3 wire (+ground) 115 volt unit. I was lucky and got one years ago, used to use it at the cottage with a 1500 watt MSW inverter. Worked OK, but was taxing the inverter to it's very limits when starting. Even so, used it that way for a few years. Kept the pump as a spare when the cottage was sold.
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  • bebey
    bebey Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #18
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    I've been searching the web, but except for the home depot flotec ad (which I suspect is mislabeled) I have not found a 115v 3 wire pump. Guess I'm either going to consider getting a transformer (thoughts) or have to consider something else.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    I find it hard to see why anyone with off-grid power would ever consider pumping to a pressure tank. 60% of the power used is used to start the pump and to create pressure in the tank. The yield on a 40 gallon bladder tank is only about 13 gallons before the pump has to come on again to create pressure in the tank. Put in a vented storage tank ( sized to your use ) and use a 5 GPM @ 50 psi demand pump for your water pressure system. You can power it with 12 V, 24V or 120 Vac. Find the pumping curve chart for the pump you are considering and figure it with 0 back pressure.
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  • bebey
    bebey Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I find it hard to see why anyone with off-grid power would ever consider pumping to a pressure tank. 60% of the power used is used to start the pump and to create pressure in the tank. The yield on a 40 gallon bladder tank is only about 13 gallons before the pump has to come on again to create pressure in the tank. Put in a vented storage tank ( sized to your use ) and use a 5 GPM @ 50 psi demand pump for your water pressure system. You can power it with 12 V, 24V or 120 Vac. Find the pumping curve chart for the pump you are considering and figure it with 0 back pressure.

    The water from the well is exceedly hard and also heavy in iron. I have a to have an iron filter (with backwash cycle) and water softener (with backwash cycle) just to get it usable for the gardens. 10gpm flow required to backwash. Additionally, all of my gardens (significant size) are all on auto-water systems or I would be watering 2-3 hours daily. I know it takes quite a bit of power just for the pump but it is what I need. I try to do all the backwash cycles and water during sunlight to maximize energy return, but still need pressure for the house basics as well. I'm currently putting in a backup rainwater collection system and i will be driving it off of a DC demand pump, but it will not provide for all of my needs, but will hopefulyl reduce load/reliance on the other system.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    bebey wrote: »
    The water from the well is exceedly hard and also heavy in iron. I have a to have an iron filter (with backwash cycle) and water softener (with backwash cycle) just to get it usable for the gardens. 10gpm flow required to backwash. Additionally, all of my gardens (significant size) are all on auto-water systems or I would be watering 2-3 hours daily. I know it takes quite a bit of power just for the pump but it is what I need. I try to do all the backwash cycles and water during sunlight to maximize energy return, but still need pressure for the house basics as well. I'm currently putting in a backup rainwater collection system and i will be driving it off of a DC demand pump, but it will not provide for all of my needs, but will hopefulyl reduce load/reliance on the other system.
    Ok, you have some special needs for pressure and flow., A booster pump would make much more sense to backwash. The size pump you are asking about would be hard pressed to give you 10 gpm with any pressure. On a 80 Gallon bladder tank with a 30/50 pressure switch your only going to get 26 gallons or so before your pump runs wide open.

    Just my .02
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I find it hard to see why anyone with off-grid power would ever consider pumping to a pressure tank. 60% of the power used is used to start the pump and to create pressure in the tank. The yield on a 40 gallon bladder tank is only about 13 gallons before the pump has to come on again to create pressure in the tank. Put in a vented storage tank ( sized to your use ) and use a 5 GPM @ 50 psi demand pump for your water pressure system. You can power it with 12 V, 24V or 120 Vac. Find the pumping curve chart for the pump you are considering and figure it with 0 back pressure.

    I can tell you exactly why I pump to a pressure tank: utilization of solar energy that otherwise would be lost. My pump is turned on when the batteries are full and the sun still shining or when the generator is running. Six minutes and I have water enough for the whole day. The pump is 'off the shelf' and can be replaced from any local source that sells pumps if need be. Since I already have sufficient inverter capacity to run the refrigerator (and septic pump) using an ordinary water pump makes a lot more sense than trying to outfit a 24 VDC pump to push water 100' up from the lake (long wires; large V-drop) and have it come on whenever water is needed. That would be a totally stupid way to go here.

    Do not discount standard pumps and pressure tanks. That system design works well and can be the perfect solution in many cases. In fact, it should be considered before looking into low Voltage DC constant flow options as it is much easier and cheaper to obtain.

    I've got a couple of broken Flojet small pumps that I used to use. Too difficult to find someplace up here that can sell the parts to repair them. And it would probably cost more than buying a 1/2 HP centrifugal pump did.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »

    Do not discount standard pumps and pressure tanks. That system design works well and can be the perfect solution in many cases. In fact, it should be considered before looking into low Voltage DC constant flow options as it is much easier and cheaper to obtain.
    Totally agree. And I like the "normal" pressurized system because it's what I've always been used to, was brought up with, it's standard, simple, convenient and since it usually only runs during daylight, the overall power consumption from batteries compared to two freezers, a fridge and everything else, is rather small in the overall scheme of things. My tank size? 20 gal, which means my domestic water is not laying around in a big tank for long stretches of time. I like it fresh from the well.
    But to each his or her own.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    I like it fresh from the well.
    Where it has been sitting around in cold, dark aquifers for who knows how long. Ecch! :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    inetdog wrote: »
    Where it has been sitting around in cold, dark aquifers for who knows how long. Ecch! :-)

    Mine comes out of a lake full of fish and plants, all living and dying and decaying in there.
    Know what? It's cleaner than the city stuff - which also comes out of a lake, gets loaded with toxic chemicals to "clean" it, then travels through aged pipes full of active and deadly cysts that are resistant to the chemicals, and comes out of your tap as "potable".

    Recently (2005) a B.C. community (Gibsons) won an award for having the best water. It came from a well and wasn't treated with anything.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    Oh well, I tried, You can led a horse to water, can't always make them drink....lol. It took me a long time to change my system around, for many of the same reasons. After 20 years of maintaining a large inverter and strings of parallel batteries just to pressurize a tank I saw the light. Anyway it was just my .02.

    I guess if you only pump for 6 minutes a day there would be no reason to change.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #27
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Oh well, I tried, You can led a horse to water, can't always make them drink....lol. It took me a long time to change my system around, for many of the same reasons. After 20 years of maintaining a large inverter and strings of parallel batteries just to pressurize a tank I saw the light. Anyway it was just my .02.

    I guess if you only pump for 6 minutes a day there would be no reason to change.

    I have a large inverter, true. But it is needed for more than just the water pump. I sure wouldn't go for 3.5 kW of inverter for that alone!
    But I do not have strings of parallel batteries. If your water pumping needs really were that large you probably couldn't get away with a DC system anyhow.

    That's what it comes down to; the particular pumping needs of the installation. Many forum folks have all their water needs met with the little 12 Volt Shurflos. Others could not get water without a big deep well pump. Define the pumping needs first, then figure out how to power it. And sometimes you find the pumping needs are not so drastic as you might think.
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    bebey wrote: »
    I've been searching the web, but except for the home depot flotec ad (which I suspect is mislabeled) I have not found a 115v 3 wire pump. Guess I'm either going to consider getting a transformer (thoughts) or have to consider something else.
    Actually the flotec address I posted for you was the model np. you posted in #5 post. I don,t think there is 3 wire pumps for 110 vac. You should use the address that BB posted and look at model # FP 2211-12 for the 110 vac pump and see if you think that will work. :Dsolarvic:D PS- If it were me I think I would get a grundfos soft start pump and be done with it. I have a new one layed up for the next pump failure.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #29
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?

    Here is a brand of motor found on Goulds pumps.
    see page 6 or so for motor specifics http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/M1479%20MDC%20Catalog%201.12.pdf
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #30
    Re: Recommendation for a 110v well pump with these factors please?
    westbranch wrote: »
    Here is a brand of motor found on Goulds pumps.
    see page 6 or so for motor specifics http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/M1479%20MDC%20Catalog%201.12.pdf

    Good find! Was wondering about Goulds when I was out for my walk under the stars last night, as a neighbor of mine sells them. The 110 volt 3 wire unit I have, although not a Goulds, has that same Franklin 1/2 hp motor. And seriously, I could replace the motor with 1/3 Hp, remove two or three of the pump impellers, and still have plenty of pressure in my situation.
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