Scary article to the extreme

solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭
maybe some more motivation for solar

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719


note--- i am allowing the thread acknowledging it to be controversial, but i don't think it's too political at this point.
i have moved it to this area of the forum as a solar opinion. their point wasn't of the politicians so much, but what the politicians recognized as facts. i know this can get to be a subject that gets political or everybody goes off into name calling or the blame game so be careful here so we won't have to lock it. an example of going too political here may be the that there's no enforcement and that would go too far so hands off that. niel

Comments

  • CDN_VTCDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme

    Read , Thanks

    Here is a Y-tub : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat9xSos_7g

    Here how they are keeping fossil in front .

    VT
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme

    Thanks for BOTH links! WOW!!! I now know more than ever, that it's way past time for us ALL to wake up, but it's looking more all the time like it may already be far too late :cry:
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    solar_dave wrote: »
    maybe some more motivation for solar

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719


    note--- i am allowing the thread acknowledging it to be controversial, but i don't think it's too political at this point.
    i have moved it to this area of the forum as a solar opinion. their point wasn't of the politicians so much, but what the politicians recognized as facts. i know this can get to be a subject that gets political or everybody goes off into name calling or the blame game so be careful here so we won't have to lock it. an example of going too political here may be the that there's no enforcement and that would go too far so hands off that. niel

    Thanks for allowing this one back up Neil. The intent was not to be political but to enlighten about the math. While a bit on the extreme side, if any part of the article is even close to the truth it is scary.
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    solar_dave wrote: »
    maybe some more motivation for solar

    I agree that solar is a good way to reduce our CO2 emissions, but the article is pretty sensationalist. The climate has changed in the past and will change in the future. It is now changing faster than it would otherwise (due primarily to CO2 emissions) but even after 150 years of warming the effects have been pretty minor. The question isn't "will we all die" "will the seas rise and flood Manhattan" etc - the question is "is it cheaper to mitigate the changes, or cheaper to let them happen then deal with them?"
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    I agree that solar is a good way to reduce our CO2 emissions, but the article is pretty sensationalist. The climate has changed in the past and will change in the future. It is now changing faster than it would otherwise (due primarily to CO2 emissions) but even after 150 years of warming the effects have been pretty minor. The question isn't "will we all die" "will the seas rise and flood Manhattan" etc - the question is "is it cheaper to mitigate the changes, or cheaper to let them happen then deal with them?"

    bill,
    with all due respect here, nobody said we're all gonna die so i view you as being a sensationalist in labeling the articles in such a manor in order to downplay them. it is this kind of thing that flares threads out of control or warnings to be given. it took much fact finding by many to overturn the downplay many have imposed that the temps are rising and even you have admitted to that fact they are rising. now you say it's normal that this happens, but you weren't around for what this high temp actually did for our planet in the past to pooh pooh it. i am not being an alarmist, but we are going to find out in the many years to come and i don't believe we can stop it at this point. it would be questionable if we can even slow it down to do it any good. i do acknowledge that the causes and to what degree they have contributed to the warming can be questionable and i don't want this thread to go into those kind of arguments that can neither be proved or disproved, but a problem does exist and to what extent that will turn out to be a problem is still somewhat speculative, but to underscore it does not make it go away or help as it's impact will be more than just business as usual that we could put blinders on.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme

    Well, at least the rhetoric from the "other side" seems to be shifting from "the climate is not changing" to "the climate is changing but it's not our fault". I guess that's progress... :D
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    niel wrote: »
    with all due respect here, nobody said we're all gonna die so i view you as being a sensationalist in labeling the articles in such a manor in order to downplay them.

    Sorry, to be clear, I am _against_ such extremism on both sides of the argument. (The extremes of which are "we're all going to die" and "nothing's happening and it's all an evil plot by the greenies.") This article, by talking about how "terrifying" climate change was, is pretty far to one extreme, as the original poster suggested.
    now you say it's normal that this happens

    ?? No, I didn't. Like I said, it is changing faster than it ordinarily would.
    but you weren't around for what this high temp actually did for our planet in the past to pooh pooh it.

    Who says I'm pooh-poohing it?

    I fear that often in such discussions people on line read a post and decide "aha! He's a denier! (or alarmist)" and from that point proceed with a bunch of assumptions as to what their opinions must be. I think we have changed the climate significantly through anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases, and I think it's worthwhile to _not_ change it as fast as we possibly can. Not because we know the outcomes will be very bad, but because we simply don't know with any degree of certainty what they will be.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    I fear that often in such discussions people on line read a post and decide "aha! He's a denier! (or alarmist)" and from that point proceed with a bunch of assumptions as to what their opinions must be. I think we have changed the climate significantly through anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases, and I think it's worthwhile to _not_ change it as fast as we possibly can. Not because we know the outcomes will be very bad, but because we simply don't know with any degree of certainty what they will be.
    One cause for concern is the idea that the conditions surrounding us are the conditions under which we evolved into who and what we are. A major change of any parameter in any direction is unlikely to make things better for us. Conditions change and organisms adapt, but that sort of thing is usually bad news for the individual if it happens quickly.
  • mtdocmtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme

    Exactly. At the current trajectory,we will soon pass a threshold where positive feedback cycles will accelerate the rate of warming (e.g. warming leads to increased arctic methane release which leads to faster warming .... etc).

    While the planet may have been much warmer in the past, with few exceptions the current flora and fauna were not present then. Most animals and plants are not suited to such an environment. Large mammals will not be able to thermoregulate properly in a much warmer climate. Ocean acidification will wipe out most marine species.

    The future is always uncertain but IMHO the only hope is collapse of the current industrial economy - and soon....:cry:

    Sorry to be alarmist. I may sound like an "extremist" but facts is facts - pretending they are not doesn't help. Of course others are free to disagree.

    http://youtu.be/fbdfmUt2G9w
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme

    I think that suggesting that "most marine species" won't survive may be a bit extreme, but that is sort of beside the point. Regardless of reality of that statement, the feedback loop potential, between methane releases from permafrost, coupled with ocean acidification is a very real, and very scary issue (most especially since Meghan is a much more robust GHG).

    Ithe net, without taking a "political" stance it is pretty easy to understand. You can't add insulation to your house, and not turn heater down and not have it warm up. Folks tend to be pretty local-centric, and have a hard time seeing the earth a a much smaller place than it seems to be. I suggest that folks spend some time in the high and sub arctic to get a real feel for the change that is happening around us. The predictions of increased warming in high latitudes is coming true. The effect at higher latitudes is exacerbated. A couple degrees of rise in Kansas may have its own set of devastating effects, but when you are dealing with the margins of freezing ice and permafrost, those couple of degrees is huge.

    Note as a moderator. I am fine with this conversation, as long as we can keep it civil and on topic. If (when) it begins to veer off to nastiness or name calling etc, we will shut it down. There are plenty of other places on the web to scream and yell. This is no one of them.

    Tony
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    mtdoc wrote: »
    Exactly. At the current trajectory,we will soon pass a threshold where positive feedback cycles will accelerate the rate of warming (e.g. warming leads to increased arctic methane release which leads to faster warming .... etc).

    That's definitely a possibility. So is the possibility of negative feedback - increased evaporation due to to higher temps leads to greater daytime cloud formation, which reduces the rate of temperature rise (for example.) It is due to such uncertainties that the IPCC predictions have such wide error bands.
    While the planet may have been much warmer in the past, with few exceptions the current flora and fauna were not present then.

    Agreed; different flora and fauna were present, better adapted to warmer climates. Any significant climactic change causes fairly rapid evolution as old species die out and new species evolve to fill the same niches. (Note that this is not something we should be aiming for; on the other hand, it's how we got here to begin with.)
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    icarus wrote: »
    I suggest that folks spend some time in the high and sub arctic to get a real feel for the change that is happening around us. The predictions of increased warming in high latitudes is coming true. The effect at higher latitudes is exacerbated. A couple degrees of rise in Kansas may have its own set of devastating effects, but when you are dealing with the margins of freezing ice and permafrost, those couple of degrees is huge.

    Agreed. We were up in Barrow, Alaska years ago and they were losing land at an alarming rate. They used to have ice covering their shore most of the year - and now they are ice free most of the year, so they have no protection against storm-driven waves.
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    icarus wrote: »
    ...Regardless of reality of that statement, the feedback loop potential, between methane releases from permafrost, coupled with ocean acidification is a very real, and very scary issue (most especially since Meghan is a much more robust GHG).

    Whoa. Remind me to stay away from HER! Especially on baked bean night.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • mtdocmtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    So is the possibility of negative feedback - increased evaporation due to to higher temps leads to greater daytime cloud formation

    Oh crap, You mean I might have to buy MORE solar panels...:p
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme

    Clearly you have never met Meagan!

    Tony
  • marsofoldmarsofold Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme

    There is no arguing that 1/3 of the north pole has gone away in the last 30 years. The photos are on NASA's website and it is simply not credible that they are involved with deceiving the public on the issue. So it should be considered to be a fact by all honorable persons. If such a major change on a planetary scale means nothing to someone, then that is all I need to know about that person...
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Scary article to the extreme
    marsofold wrote: »
    There is no arguing that 1/3 of the north pole has gone away in the last 30 years.

    I sure hope we are only missing the polar ice cap.... :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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