GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Ken Marsh

GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps
Has anybody had experience, Good or Bad, with these LED lamps?
I am thinking on standardizing on them.
Thanks

BB.

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

I have been running a couple similar constructed lamps (5 LED with Edison socket) for 6 months or so... So far, so good.

In general, even the LED bulbs that claim to be flood types still have a fairly well developed hot spot. My wife likes more spill for lightning the rest of the room and is not too thrilled with these types of flood/spot lights for general room use.

Given the expense of these LED lamps--I would suggest only getting a couple and using them for awhile (even move to different fixtures to see how they work in different rooms). There is a lot of personal choice--And color temperature seems not to be real consistent. The "spot" looks similar, but looking at the lamp face, there is a noticeable difference in color (these are warm white bulbs) between same lamps but purchased from different lots.

I have some daylight type outdoor motion sensor LED lamps--And it is not very pretty either (bright, but everything appears washed out color-wise).

-Bill

waynefromnscanada

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

I'm finding some big improvements in designs (and prices when on sale). My preference is "bright white", roughly 5000k color temperature for outside, as things, especially snow, look natural. Inside however we are used to a warmer colour (Yeah, we're from Canada, so there's a "U" in colour ) from the old incandescent bulbs, thus lights in the 3000K range are best. But best of all, some new designs by Sylvania are great! The upper part of the "bulb" is heat sink, but the lower half is like a half globe and distributes light really well. These latest "bulbs" from Sylvania are also usable in damp locations, as in outdoors. Earlier ones would suck in moisture and water with temperature changes and of course, fail.
Over the last few years I've used and replaced several designs outside, but FINALLY these new Sylvania's, I'm happy with. They also by the way, have roughly three times the light output per watt compared to all I've tried so far. They're still not easy to find, and the price is up there, but things are changing fast. Will be very interesting to see the situation in a years time.

ggunn

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

I'm finding some big improvements in designs (and prices when on sale). My preference is "bright white", roughly 5000k color temperature for outside, as things, especially snow, look natural. Inside however we are used to a warmer colour (Yeah, we're from Canada, so there's a "U" in colour ) from the old incandescent bulbs, thus lights in the 3000K range are best.

It's interesting how we use warmer and cooler to describe the character of light when we mean just the opposite, isn't it? Blue light is actually "warmer".

BB.

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

I guess that gets back to infra-red and deep red being really "warm" and blues/ultra violet as not having a sensation of heat (burned skin--yes).

Some cultural things too... US tends to have White cloth with a blue tinge as "really white" color (even to the point of adding ultra violet sensitive bluish dyes). In China, they tend towards a bit of brown as being "really white" (or so I have been told).

-Bill

waynefromnscanada

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Good point, "being blue with cold" is rather common in some parts of Canada during those times of the year other than the last wk of July and the first wk of August. Hahahahaha
And the Chinese tendency to like a bit of brown in their "white" probably explains why the made in China "warm white" LEDs make snow look a very unnatural brownish colour, thus my preference for 5000K lights for outside.

Ken Marsh

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Thanks much for your comments.
I purchased one of them two or three months ago.
It has a few hours on it now and I can see no difference in output.
I checked back yesterday and see that the price has approximately halved.
So in another three months they maybe will be the price of CFLs??

We have three areas of track lighting, 24 bulbs total.
They have 50 watt halogen GU-10 track lights over them now.
I like them but they really suck the power.
I am trying to get this house electric usage down to where we can go off grid.
So far we have a long way to go.

But I got my shop off grid.
That was quite some doing since we run several motors 3 to 5 Hp.
Did it by going to three phase motors and running them with VFDs.

The next step is a water source heat pump, 3 1/2 Hp.
It does our heating, cooling and DHW with no back up.
It accounts for about 65% of our electric usage.
Want to be able to run it with the solar panels at least when the sun is shining.
That will be air condx in the summer which will also make the hot water.
Will have to do something else in the winter since we don't get much sun in the winter months.

BB.

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

If you would like, want to talk a bit about the VFD's (good/bad/where to get/what to look for)....

-Bill

Ken Marsh

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Sure Bill,
It is busy time for me but like to talk about these topics.

My favorite is http://www.wnysupply.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/25262/subcatid/0/id/472008
They describe them well on the site.

ebay has China versions for amazing low cost.
Go to ebay.com and search for "VFD drive"
I got some in but have not had time to apply them.
Well I did do one, a 4 HP, hooked it to a 5 Hp air compressor.
It is doing great. It seems to be an exact knock off.

Vic

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Ken

I am playing around with LED lighting for some new construction. Have played with the GU-10 bulbs, fixtures, and small three fixture tracks. There is a 3 Watt and a 9 or 10 watt GU-10 that have in another location, so cannot say the exact wattages.

These are not too bad. IIRC one size is 3000 K, and the other is 2700 K. I prefer the 2700 degree lamps. The light is fairly well diffused ... BUT, the CREE 4-inch LED for can lights is really very nice. This size, plus the LEDs for 6 inch cans are amazingly well diffused, probably partly because the emitter(s) can be placed farther away from the diffuser. Have toyed with the idea of trying to make a fixture for the 4-inch can LEDs, that operates similar to the GU-10 track fixture -- you know, tilt and rotate, or perhaps just a string of these that are not moveable.

The second story of the new dwelling has a ceiling sloped at 30 degrees (to match the roof), and conventional can lighting will not work too well.

Am still looking for LED cans for sloped roofs. Or, some well diffused track fixture that uses a larger LED.

As an aside, did snag an Edison based LED bulb, on sale at HD, to be used as diffused light behing the TV. That thing drove the OTA TV absolutely NUTSO. Had to take it back. It was a CREE, and had the FCC logo on it (should mean rudimentary EMI/RFI suppression, at least), but musta been a sham. Most of the LEDs that have experimented with have had no measurable emissions.

Like LEDs a lot, altho, here, CFLs work fairly well, but would prefer a long-lived replacement for incandescants. YMMV, Vic

Ken Marsh

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Thanks Bill, Wayne, Ggun, and Vic for the good comments.
We are getting back on this project and plan to order the LEDs today.
In each case we need the focused area for down lighting, kitchen counter, Library area and electronic bench.
There are other lights, four bulb 4' florescents, for fill lighting and they are all switched so we turn on only what we need.
The wife and I both like the white white color temp.

These lamps are just a little longer than the incandescent.
They don't let you fasten the snap ring to hold them in.
Think I will get some 2" Al tube and cut rings to extend the fixture length.
Think I can turn a grove in one end so the snap ring will hold it into the fixture.
Will have to figure some sort of clip to hold the lamp in the tube.
The lamps run much cooler than the incandescent.

Vic

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Thanks for the update Ken,

Yes, it does seem that there needs to be a few more/many more options for LED fixtures. Guess that the market needs to demand them, OR I need to start looking in different places for more variety. In the intirum, making and adapting what exists seems to be the way to go.

I, too, like the flourescent-tubed fixtures, as the light from them is very well diffused -- fewer/no hard shadows, but am reminded that they are SO dated. And have not found good looking fixtures (to me) for flour tubes in the big box stores.

Good Luck, let us know how things work out. Vic

Ken Marsh

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Will resurrect this thread one more time to bring the results.
I purchased 30 of the 9 watt GU10s.
It took them about a month to get here.
Have 26 of them installed.
Not a single DOA.
Not a single failure in a month of regular use.
These are the white white version.
They are a little shocking initially but you get used to it
and when you go back to the lower color temperature they look anemic.
The second batch are a little shorter than the original. They fit into the fixture no problem.
I think we will shortly see LEDs take over the majority of CF applications.

Vic.
Thanks for your comments. You have an interesting spread. Do you air condition?
Just the last couple of months there have been a large number of options come out.
You can get these same lamps with the small Edison screw base.
Also, there are converter plugs - small Edison to Gu10.
GU10 sockets, cheap as water, to roll your own.
I want to convert my shop next.
Will be replacing 400 w HIDs and four ft florescents.
Never have liked the HIDs.

Vic

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the update on the GU-10s. Sounds like a lot of light there!

Will do some more scouting for new LED fixtures, thanks for the encouragement. Do agree that LEDs are really coming on strong, and CFLs seem endangered (which IS good).

On A/C, YES, discovered it about four years ago, but the current residence has insuficient PV to support enough A/C for the weather conditions this year. Had planned to put more PVs on the roof of a shop, building soon to be constructed. But, think that the steel
roof is too fragile to allow all of that foot trafic required to install them ... perhaps a Tracker will do the trick.
Will be migrating to Mini-Splits, this year. Thanks for the info, Ken. Vic

icarus

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

I am running a number of 4 watt conventional shaped LED bulbs from Cosco,,~$9. Nice light quality, a quite as bright as a 13 watt CFL. The bulbs are not frosted however, and the light is a bit glaring outside the shade. Pretty happy, I will get a few more, watching the price comes down.

Tony

PNjunction

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Vic wrote: »

As an aside, did snag an Edison based LED bulb, on sale at HD, to be used as diffused light behing the TV. That thing drove the OTA TV absolutely NUTSO. Had to take it back. It was a CREE, and had the FCC logo on it (should mean rudimentary EMI/RFI suppression, at least), but musta been a sham. Most of the LEDs that have experimented with have had no measurable emissions.

I experimented with a few of these last year, and to my joy found no noise generated up to 30 mhz. One German brand I tried (forgot the manufacturer), was totally clean up to 30mhz, but above that, it was like a broadband radar jammer all the way up to 450 mhz, which was the top end for my receiver. I was elated at first, until I drove my receivers beyond 30mhz, and had to take it back. Which was surprising, since most of the noise I encounter also exists down in the HF region - but these seemed to just open the gates at 30mhz.

BB.

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Yea... Diodes on AC is just a EMI noise fest without proper noise suppression (i.e., installed in a metal box with filtering). And LED's are big old diodes exposed through plastic/glass.

Add switching power supplies to regulate current flow through the LEDs--makes things worse. Probably will find electromagnetic interference in the 30 MHz to 300 MHz range--but possibly higher.

Interference drops with the square of the distance... 2' away cause interference, 4' away will be about 1/4th the energy level. A useful/noticeable reduction in energy would be around 1/10th or more reduction in interference or about 3+ times farther away (i.e., if 2 feet away causes problems, then move to at least 6' away and try again).

-Bill

PS: It is possible that with LED bulbs very close to radios/receivers that you are getting "capacitive" or electric field coupling... Moving even a few feet away from receiver and its wiring may be enough to help reduce noise.

Ken Marsh

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Vic, Interesting comments. You must be building.
I don't know what I would use for lighting now if I were to start from scratch.
The wife has a large kitchen. There is track lighting over some 20 ft of counter.
I put 15, 9 watt Gu-10s over the counter. It came out nice and bright with little shadowing.
But an electronic area about 8 ft wide with four 9 watt Gu-10 did not come out nice.
Not enough light and distracting shadows.

With your PV you should be able to do air conditioning, at least when the sun is shining.
The mini-splits should do you a good job.
Would like to hear about your progress.

BB, You mentioned before someplace about discussing VFDs,
I am presently applying one to an old heat pump.
Managed to get a three phase compressor the right size.
But there are occasional comments on the web saying you should not use VFDs in refrigeration applications.
So, decided I better try it in a mock up before committing it to the main system.
Am using a 4 Hp Huanyang VFD.
It runs the compressor just great and will start it with full pressure on the compressor.
At pressures associated to 30-35 deg F suction and 100 deg high side,
it drew about 13 amp @ 230 volt ac (single phase input from solar powered inverter).
This is less current than a single phase compressor would use.
Now when I get some time will install it in the heat pump.

PNjunction and BB, Makes you wonder what is going on.
Usually randomly generated EMF noise has it highest power at the lower frequencies.
Wonder if the LED junction is oscillating.

BB.

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Ken,

Thank you for talking about your VFD... I think they should be really helpful in many applications--especially off grid.

I am still a little bit leery of them--I think many (most/all/some?) are square wave output and probably should have motors 25% or so over sized to allow for the MSW type output.

I have heard a (very little) bit some comments that AC Induction Motors may not last as long on VFD's (perhaps they run hot because of the MSW output?).

Regarding diode noise... There is the low frequency noise from switching (a simple AC transformer and full wave rectifier can fail FCC conducted noise limits--100's of kHz to 1-10 MHz range--been a very long time).

Emissions over 30 MHz tend to be switching noise (square waves with sharp edges). RFI can be sent out wires to about 180 MHz... And 30 MHz on up can be rated trough the air directly (typically slot type antenna--Look for slots that are 1/4 wave length).

I am not sure what is generating the RF noise--From the few AC LED lamps around my home, they seem to run at 60 Hz (really 120 Hz) fundamental (move your hand back and forth quickly under an AC LED Bulb--Sort of like the old Florescent lamps/CFL's before high frequency ballasts--I have not seen any LEDs operating at the 10-20 kHz or so that CFL's are operating at today (electronic ballasts).

There still is some sort of electronic ballast (I guess). If it is PWM, sharp switching edges (many times per cycle) could certainly create RF interference.

However, getting into the 800 MHz range--I would think that would have to depend on the LED physics itself--It would seem unlikely that a simple LED ballast would operate at 10's of MHz with very sharp edges just to control current to the LED....

-Bill

Ken Marsh

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

Hi Bill,
Appreciate your insite and comments.

The LED lights are rated to operate on either 120 or 240 volts.
So they probably are some sort of pulse width modulation switcher.
All the ones I got are working.
I was hoping one of them would be defective so I could cut into it and try to figure out how they work.
Just can't get myself into cutting up a good unit.
I have cut up various CFs. They fail quite regularly.
They use an electrolytic cap to smooth the rectified AC.
They probably have to do this so that the arc does not extinguish.
But the LED does not have that problem and I do not think the LED ballast has the electrolytic.
So the light output from the LED is probably modulated at 120 cycles.

As for the VFDs, they are bridge mosfet output similar to a MSW inverter.
The output must be isolated from ground/neutral.
But they differ from a MSW inverter in that the output is a pulse width modulated.
You can set the chopping frequency, usually between 4 to 20 Kcps.
They have no transformer like a sin wave inverter hence are small, light and low cost.

Now as Lazza pointed out, there are also some boost type VFDs.
These utilize boost inverters kind of like a MPPT controler (a MPPT is a buck inverter but similar principle).
They can change the voltage.
But these are a special case.
Most VFDs are straight bridge choppers hence do not change the voltage.

Now about chopper driven motors;
Just because you apply a square wave to a motor does not mean the motor will accept the square wave as such.
It will draw current as it wants and certainly not as a square wave.
Remember that it is current that turns the motor.
The leakage inductance of the motor alone will limit the di/dt significantly.
...Got people waiting for me to take them to airport, so more on this later.

bmet

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

I'm going to ask a stupid question here. how do they minimize interference with all these new generation l e d tv

BB.

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

If the LED traces are kept "shielded" (buried in circuit layers, and/or properly laid out) can reduce emissions. More or less, wire/slots less than an inch or two in length (exposed to "free air") will not broadcast below ~1 GHz.

If the noise is from the DC power supplies to the LEDs--Proper layout and filtering will reduce noise too.

-Bill

inetdog

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

bmet wrote: »

I'm going to ask a stupid question here. how do they minimize interference with all these new generation l e d tv

In an LED TV, the LEDs are used as the backlighting, and so the voltage and current do not need to change rapidly at the frame or video rate.
In addition, the designers do not need to maximize efficiency in the LED light output regulation and so can shape the on/off waveform to have "soft" edges which will not generate as much energy in high frequency harmonics. Any RF noise emitted by the diodes themselves at constant current is minimized by proper handling of the wiring as described by BB.

BB.

Re: GU-10 9 Watt LED Lamps

"Rapid" rates are relative... I believe the "refresh rate for a "fast" HD TV is only ~100 Hz. So any LED modulation is going to similarly slow (frequencies above ~10 Hz are usually not detectable by the eye--Not to be confused with Motion Blur--for example films are shown at 24 FPS).

Typically, with digital circuits, you really don't even worry about signals slower than ~1 MHz.

-Bill