XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
I just completed upgrading the XW-6048 to the latest firmware. Page 61 of the Operation Guide mentions that two modes of Grid Support Settings are possible: Fixed Battery Voltage or Enhanced Interactive Mode. I cannot find any menu that allows me to select EIM. I have the SCC MPPT-60 connected to the Xanbus, so is this function automatic? I would have thought I'd be able to see the status of EIM--whether it's enabled or not. Thank you in advance!:confused:
XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
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Comments

  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    By setting your grid support voltage to 64 volts you enable EIM.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Thank you! I didn't see ANY reference to that in the operations manual. Do I need to set my SCC to a higher voltage too? Right now the charge volts is set to 53.0V. Or will it automatically adjust that when I set GSV to 64?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    By setting your grid support voltage to 64 volts you enable EIM.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    No, leave your CC at the correct settings to charge the battery bank. Set the GSV in the advanced section of the INVERTER to 64 volts. That way the inverter will track the SCC. The only way I found out about this was to call tech support and beg for a crumb of an answer about EIM.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Well, THANK YOU for sharing that crumb!!! :D
    Joe_B wrote: »
    No, leave your CC at the correct settings to charge the battery bank. Set the GSV in the advanced section of the INVERTER to 64 volts. That way the inverter will track the SCC. The only way I found out about this was to call tech support and beg for a crumb of an answer about EIM.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    I am here to help.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    It's strange that the operation manual would tell you about a feature--but not tell you how to enable it!

    Makes you wonder what other undocumented features are hiding.... :grr
    Joe_B wrote: »
    I am here to help.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Dusty wrote: »
    Makes you wonder what other undocumented features are hiding.... :grr

    There are plenty, they are called bugs...
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Well, that's not exactly what I meant.... :blush:

    While I have the Dongle, I was going through all the different windows to see if there was anything that I could configure with it that I couldn't with just the SCP. I'm thinking of keeping it, if I could find some better software for logging. For instance, I can page through the SCC's history file at the front panel, but I can't seem to find that history logged anywhere else or accessible through the Dongle.

    Do you know of any Freeware datalogger that does a good job with the XW GT system?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    There are plenty, they are called bugs...
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    The only other third party software I know about is this

    http://www.briery.com/

    At one point, X was developing some software to control and manage the XW via a PC but the project died. According to tech support, the program was completed and running on windows XP but they failed to release it. Also, there are a number of users on this forum supposedly trying to develop some better control software for the XW but I have not heard anything recently about those efforts.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Thanks Joe, I'll check out that website.

    Dusty
    Joe_B wrote: »
    The only other third party software I know about is this

    http://www.briery.com/

    At one point, X was developing some software to control and manage the XW via a PC but the project died. According to tech support, the program was completed and running on windows XP but they failed to release it. Also, there are a number of users on this forum supposedly trying to develop some better control software for the XW but I have not heard anything recently about those efforts.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Joe,

    Does this software work with the Dongle shipped by Xantrex, or would I have to purchase the Apox Dongle?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    The only other third party software I know about is this

    http://www.briery.com/

    At one point, X was developing some software to control and manage the XW via a PC but the project died. According to tech support, the program was completed and running on windows XP but they failed to release it. Also, there are a number of users on this forum supposedly trying to develop some better control software for the XW but I have not heard anything recently about those efforts.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    I think so but you should contact the software vendor to be sure.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Will do. Thank you for the link!
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Here is the main guy:

    Dan Lenox [email][email protected]<[email protected][/email]>
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Thank you!

    The rails arrived today for a second ground mount, so if the panels arrive before the weekend, I'll have lots to do.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    By setting your grid support voltage to 64 volts you enable EIM.

    Joe,

    I found the reference in the 6048 online manual that discusses EIM (page 3-25). This is a newer manual version than the hard copy that came with my 6048. What I'm understanding is the 6048's GSV has to be set to the SCC's bulk and absorb voltage setting to properly track. Although the first paragraph uses examples of 32volts for a 24volt system and 64volts for a 48volt system, table 3-3 of the SCC manual (in the custom battery menu) shows the default voltage for bulk and absorb for a 48 volt system is 57.6v. If I'm not in the SCC's custom battery menu, I can't see or change the bulk or absorb default values-- I can only change Recharge Volts.

    Since I'm using an AGM battery, should I use the custom battery menu and change the bulk and absorb voltage or leave them at the default? If I should change them, what voltage would you recommend? Whatever I set the SCC bulk and absorb voltage to, that's what I should set GSV to for EIM to properly track the SCC. Do you agree?
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    No, set the SCC voltages to what the battery manufacturer recomends, set the 6048 GSV to 64 volts. Set SCC to 3 stage, set SCC recharge volts to lowest value possible (so it always chrges).
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    No, set the SCC voltages to what the battery manufacturer recommends, set the 6048 GSV to 64 volts. Set SCC to 3 stage, set SCC recharge volts to lowest value possible (so it always chrges).

    Ok, I'll have to find out what the mfr recommends for bulk and float. Thank you!
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    No, set the SCC voltages to what the battery manufacturer recomends, set the 6048 GSV to 64 volts. Set SCC to 3 stage, set SCC recharge volts to lowest value possible (so it always chrges).


    Joe,

    The lowest possible Recharge Volts setting of the SCC (according to the manual) is 40.0 volts. I currently have mine set to 50.0, but I'll change it to 40.0 if you think I should set it that low. Since the bulk recharge won't start until it reaches 1.5 volts below the recharge volts setting, I was afraid that would drain the battery too deeply before starting the bulk cycle. Should I also set the 6048 to 40.0 volts too? It is set for 2-stage, and the SCC is set for 3-stage.

    I got the recommended float voltage from the mfr yesterday. They recommend 13.2-13.8 for the float voltage , so I set the SCC for 13.5*4 = 54.0 volts.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    According to my information, the recharge volts setting determines when the bulk phase will start. 50 volts is too high to ensure that you will always charge the bank and therefore you will potentially be wasting solar harvest. For example, if its cloudy out and you are only able to maintain 51 volts on your bank, then the charger will be in float mode and unload the panels. By setting the SCC recharge volts to the lowest setting possible, you will always guarantee that the SCC will harvest as much solar energy as possible. The AC charger is a different story, you only want that to charge the bank when it needs it so recharge volts for the grid charger is important. For the SCC you want it to be charging all the time that there is harvest available.

    Your situation is similar to mine in that you sell to the grid and the inverter is essentially a load on the bank. My situation uses a dump load that absorbs the excess power that the batteries cant. In EIM, the XW always wants to keep the bank at 100% but then will throttle back the SCC to only support loads once that is achieved. since you want to harvest as much solar as possible and sell it to the grid, then you dont want that to throttle back.

    Set SCC recharge volts to lowest possible and then tweak the sell amps to harvest as much as possible. Unfortunately since the XW does not have a shunt, it only can use voltage to estimate the SOC. You are getting into the area where the XW has real issues. The only way you can optimize a particular system is to experimentally tweak the numbers for the best compromise. Since all days dont produce the same solar harvest, the best you can do is tweak things so the batteries are always happy at the expense of some solar harvest.

    What I mean by this is on a 100% sunny day, it would be great to crank up the sell amps but if you leave that setting, on a cloudy day, your batteries will get beat up. So you have to compromise some solar harvest to make sure that the system runs correctly for all weather conditions.

    Given that you have AGM batteries, you can afford to beat on them more than my FLA system.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    According to my information, the recharge volts setting determines when the bulk phase will start.

    Yes, that's what I read in the manual too.

    50 volts is too high to ensure that you will always charge the bank and therefore you will potentially be wasting solar harvest. For example, if its cloudy out and you are only able to maintain 51 volts on your bank, then the charger will be in float mode and unload the panels. By setting the SCC recharge volts to the lowest setting possible, you will always guarantee that the SCC will harvest as much solar energy as possible.

    So, by setting the recharge volts to 40.0 (lowest value) this forces the SCC to never transition to the bulk charging state which would unload the panels? I'm thinking that you used 51V as the example, because float voltage -1V would equal the recharge volts setting (in this case, 50v) and cause the SCC to go into bulk charge mode.

    Since the inverter/charger is in 2-stage mode with Grid Support voltage set to 64V (Enhanced Interactive Mode), I thought that the inverter/charger tracks the SCC's float setting and keeps GSV less than Float, thereby always maximizing PV harvest. But this is overridden if SCC Float equals SCC Recharge Volts, right? I think the light bulb is (dimly) starting to come on....

    The AC charger is a different story, you only want that to charge the bank when it needs it so recharge volts for the grid charger is important. For the SCC you want it to be charging all the time that there is harvest available.

    So I should leave the recharge volts on the inverter/charger at the default of 50.0 volts, thereby protecting the battery bank from being driven any lower than 50v?

    Your situation is similar to mine in that you sell to the grid and the inverter is essentially a load on the bank. My situation uses a dump load that absorbs the excess power that the batteries cant. In EIM, the XW always wants to keep the bank at 100% but then will throttle back the SCC to only support loads once that is achieved. since you want to harvest as much solar as possible and sell it to the grid, then you dont want that to throttle back.

    Set SCC recharge volts to lowest possible and then tweak the sell amps to harvest as much as possible. Unfortunately since the XW does not have a shunt, it only can use voltage to estimate the SOC. You are getting into the area where the XW has real issues. The only way you can optimize a particular system is to experimentally tweak the numbers for the best compromise. Since all days dont produce the same solar harvest, the best you can do is tweak things so the batteries are always happy at the expense of some solar harvest.

    Ok. Let's see if I've finally got this right--With the SCC recharge volts set to 40v, I'll be pushing out the most from the panels, and by tweaking my sell amps, that will determine if I exceed the available solar harvest and start draining the batteries too until they reach the recharge voltage setting on the inverter/charger (50v). The SCC won't go into bulk mode because it's Recharge Volts setting is 40.0V.

    So, tweaking the sell amps is how I will attempt to keep the batteries fully charged while maximizing the harvest. I can see what you mean about this being difficult--particularly on days of mixed sun and clouds. But by leaving the inverter/charger recharge volts at 50.0v, the batteries can never be drained below this voltage. So the inverter/charger becomes a safeguard for the batteries, right? Fortunately, the Victron monitor has those handy history values, so I can see if I've got sell amps set too high.

    What I mean by this is on a 100% sunny day, it would be great to crank up the sell amps but if you leave that setting, on a cloudy day, your batteries will get beat up. So you have to compromise some solar harvest to make sure that the system runs correctly for all weather conditions.

    Given that you have AGM batteries, you can afford to beat on them more than my FLA system.

    Well, I can't beat on them too much, since I've only got 110Ah capacity. But they'd only get beaten down to 50v before the inverter/charger started the bulk phase-- or is this setting also overridden because the inverter/charger is in enhanced interactive mode?
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Dusty wrote: »
    Yes, that's what I read in the manual too.



    So, by setting the recharge volts to 40.0 (lowest value) this forces the SCC to never transition to the bulk charging state which would unload the panels? I'm thinking that you used 51V as the example, because float voltage -1V would equal the recharge volts setting (in this case, 50v) and cause the SCC to go into bulk charge mode.

    WOOPS, you caught me Dusty, I meant to say to set recharge volts on the SCC to THE MAX! Recharge volts is a less than setting which means "if the battery is below recharge volts (RV) then charge. Sorry for the confusion but you want he SCC to charge all the time!
    Since the inverter/charger is in 2-stage mode with Grid Support voltage set to 64V (Enhanced Interactive Mode), I thought that the inverter/charger tracks the SCC's float setting and keeps GSV less than Float, thereby always maximizing PV harvest. But this is overridden if SCC Float equals SCC Recharge Volts, right? I think the light bulb is (dimly) starting to come on....

    Yeah, sorry I confused the issue but no, rethink this based on what I said above.
    So I should leave the recharge volts on the inverter/charger at the default of 50.0 volts, thereby protecting the battery bank from being driven any lower than 50v?

    Yes, the grid charger is your protection, either the grid or a generator (if you have an AGS) will keep the batteries from getting too low.
    Ok. Let's see if I've finally got this right--With the SCC recharge volts set to 40v, I'll be pushing out the most from the panels, and by tweaking my sell amps, that will determine if I exceed the available solar harvest and start draining the batteries too until they reach the recharge voltage setting on the inverter/charger (50v). The SCC won't go into bulk mode because it's Recharge Volts setting is 40.0V.

    This is correct if you set the SCC recharge volts to the MAX
    So, tweaking the sell amps is how I will attempt to keep the batteries fully charged while maximizing the harvest. I can see what you mean about this being difficult--particularly on days of mixed sun and clouds. But by leaving the inverter/charger recharge volts at 50.0v, the batteries can never be drained below this voltage. So the inverter/charger becomes a safeguard for the batteries, right? Fortunately, the Victron monitor has those handy history values, so I can see if I've got sell amps set too high.

    Yeah but you never want to draw from the grid if the sun is out right?
    Well, I can't beat on them too much, since I've only got 110Ah capacity. But they'd only get beaten down to 50v before the inverter/charger started the bulk phase-- or is this setting also overridden because the inverter/charger is in enhanced interactive mode?

    No, the grid charger will always charge if the battery voltage is below the inverter charger recharge volts. Again, sorry for the mistake, give this some thought based on the correct ion and it will make some sense to you.

    Joe
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    WOOPS, you caught me Dusty, I meant to say to set recharge volts on the SCC to THE MAX! Recharge volts is a less than setting which means "if the battery is below recharge volts (RV) then charge. Sorry for the confusion but you want he SCC to charge all the time!

    No problem, it's easy to get switched around! By setting recharge volts on the SCC to MAX (which is 54.0V, by the way), you are forcing the SCC to always be in BULK charge mode which maximizes PV current.
    Yeah, sorry I confused the issue but no, rethink this based on what I said above.

    Got it.

    Yes, the grid charger is your protection, either the grid or a generator (if you have an AGS) will keep the batteries from getting too low.

    Got that too.
    This is correct if you set the SCC recharge volts to the MAX

    Okay, I'll give that a shot when I get home this evening.

    Yeah but you never want to draw from the grid if the sun is out right?

    Correct! In fact, I've gotten into the habit of shutting the whole system off when the PV output is less than 50 watts. No sense in it running all night with no PV, since that wastes close to .5Kw before the sun comes out again.

    No, the grid charger will always charge if the battery voltage is below the inverter charger recharge volts. Again, sorry for the mistake, give this some thought based on the correct ion and it will make some sense to you.

    It makes a bit more sense now, since the BULK charge mode is varying voltage at max current. Since my bulk and absorb voltage for my batteries is 54.0 volts, does that impact the MPPT feature of the SCC? Am I over-riding MPPT to keep the voltage at 54.0V, even though the max power curve might be at a different voltage? It's amazing how answers just turn into more questions.... :blush:
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    No problem, it's easy to get switched around! By setting recharge volts on the SCC to MAX (which is 54.0V, by the way), you are forcing the SCC to always be in BULK charge mode which maximizes PV current.

    Well it wont always be in bulk it will enter bulk phase, then if the bank voltage rises to the absorb setting it will transition to absorb and then into float. It will do what it needs to do. My system typically bounces between absorb and float once things are charged up.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    Well it wont always be in bulk it will enter bulk phase, then if the bank voltage rises to the absorb setting it will transition to absorb and then into float. It will do what it needs to do. My system typically bounces between absorb and float once things are charged up.

    Yup, I'm home now and set the SCC's Recharge Volts to 54.0--the highest it will go. And it's still in FLOAT. However, I was just getting 1900+ watts of PV on the SCC page of the SCP, so I'm not complaining. 1700 or so of that was being pushed to the grid.

    Looking at H1 on the Victron meter, the deepest discharge for the day (I just reset history this morning) was -2.3 Ah, and my current SOC is 99.7%.:D
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?

    Glad you got it working, Now you will begin tweaking things. The two key parameters you will be dealing with is the grid support voltage and the sell amps. Things will get much better when you increase the size of your battery bank.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    Glad you got it working, Now you will begin tweaking things. The two key parameters you will be dealing with is the grid support voltage and the sell amps. Things will get much better when you increase the size of your battery bank.

    My best harvest so far has been about 9 Kwh with approximately 2.6 Kw of PV (derated by .77 = 2.1Kw) and sell amps set to 10. GSV is set to 64 for EIM support, so I'm not sure why I would be tweaking that. Are you saying that I can get a better harvest by changing that value myself, and not using Enhanced Interactive Mode?

    I took apart the RJ12 cable I purchased, and it only had 4 conductors in it! I've ordered true, 6-conductor wire, so that should solve my problem with relocating the Victron to where my SCP is.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Dusty wrote: »
    GSV is set to 64 for EIM support, so I'm not sure why I would be tweaking that. Are you saying that I can get a better harvest by changing that value myself, and not using Enhanced Interactive Mode?

    When you get a bigger battery bank, you can adjust GSV so it will ride through the peroids of when clouds pass thereby reducing your grid draw during those times.
  • DustyDusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    When you get a bigger battery bank, you can adjust GSV so it will ride through the peroids of when clouds pass thereby reducing your grid draw during those times.

    Gotcha. It'll be a while before these batteries require replacement, but I'll tweak sell amps to see if I can increase the harvest any. I increased it to 12 amps this morning, but today is another rainy/cloudy day.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_BJoe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: XW 6048 - Enhanced Interactive Mode. Where do I select EIM?
    Dusty wrote: »
    Gotcha. It'll be a while before these batteries require replacement, but I'll tweak sell amps to see if I can increase the harvest any. I increased it to 12 amps this morning, but today is another rainy/cloudy day.

    In case it has not been mentioned previously, your battery bank capacity is woefully undersized for your inverter. Xantrex recommends at least 100 AH per KW. You should have at least 400AH preferably closer to 800 AH. You should also monitor the charge rate that your panels charge the batteries at. I know AGM's can take a higher charge rate than my FLA's but for some reason if the grid went down when it was sunny out, you could potentially dump all of your solar harvest into your bank and cook things.
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