Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?

ToymanToyman Registered Users Posts: 6
Good-day folks,

I'm looking to hook up a water supply for my cottage and wondering what best option is in terms of a pump. I am off-grid with 3 125w solar panels feeding a 24v battery bank and 2400watt inverter. The lake is approximately 100 feet from the cabin with about a 15 foot difference from lake to counter height, although the pump would be located in the basement where it would have to lift only about 3-4 feet and push about 11 to counter height.

I already own a Pompco piston pump with a 1/3 hp 115v motor and pressure tank. I've ran this a couple times from the basement after installing the 1" water line to the lake and it has no issue with suction, but is slow to fill a 5 gallon bucket and the run time has me wondering if it would be a strain on my system? Would a 24v Shurflo be more efficent with a pressure tank? Would the 24v Shurflo be able to draw water that distance or would it have tobe installed near the water's edge?

I've done some reading here on the different set-ups and considered several as I have a spring near the top of a large hill approximately 500metres behind my cottage, I have a 1000litre tank I thought of using on a tower for gravity feed, but for the time being I just want to K.I.S.S.!

Any input appreciated.

Comments

  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?

    Welcome to the form Toyman!
    The Pumpco pump you mention is probably the renamed / re-owned design original Duro piston pump, belt drive from the motor to a roughly 12 inch diameter pulley that drives the crank. Sound familiar? If so, it should be pumping roughly 250 gal per hour. Sounds like your's is slow pumping and the most likely cause is either dirt under one or more of the rubber valves, or worn piston leather (or nylon) cups, both problems will allow water bypass, which greatly reduces efficiency. Otherwise this is an excellent pump, and will do a great job if working properly. It also does not need that heavy a motor. I have one of the early ones, with the original 1/6 HP capacitor start motor, although I presently use the pump shown in my profile, a dual piston, gear driven pump with a 1/4 hp motor. Your pump would work awesome with a 1/4 hp motor and if capacitor start, would hugely reduce the start surge on your inverter. I have no idea why heavier and heavier hp motors were put on these pumps as the years went by. Perhaps it was to make it appear more powerful to the buyer. Thing is, it uses less power but pumps every bit as good with a smaller motor. The original 1/6 hp has no problem driving the pressure to over 100 PSI. What more does one need for this type of pump? lol BTW this pump has no problems "sucking" water up to 25 feet vertical, and 100' of 1 inch pipe is no problem for it whatever. I grew up with these pumps and have rebuilt several of them. There is one unfortunate thing though - - Pumpco lowered the quality of the original Duro design. That said, it's still an awesome pump!
    BTW, since this is a positive displacement pump, the higher you set the pressure, the more power it uses while running. Originally the old Duro was set to start at 20 PSI, then shut off at 40 PSI. Later models were set higher, 30 to 50. But id you don't need the higher pressure, re-adjust the pressure switch for a lower pressure and save energy. :D
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?

    This is the pump you have, right?
    This is the original DURO pump that I was refering to, that was later bought out, or taken over by Pumpco.
    http://www.ksminc.net/files/Price_Sheet_for_Pompco_Piston_Pump_Web_page.pdf
  • ToymanToyman Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?

    Thanks for the replies Wayne! I'm also a east coast canuck and live in Newfoundland! What's the odds?!?

    You are right on the money about the duro/pompco. It was in a home I purchased before I hooked up an artesian. I believe it was set-up last with a 30/50psi PS. It was used for around 3 years before being taken out of service. The piston action is slow and rhythmic and probably makes 1-2 strokes per second which yields about a 1/2 - 1 cup each time. To compare I hooked up an older jet pump which filled a bucket in less than 30 secs, where the piston pump took closer to a minute or two at least (never actually timed it). From what I've read the piston pump is a hardy unit and can last a long time if looked after and new seals installed when necessary, but without a smaller motor to switch out I'm afraid of the draw it will have versus a 24v RV/Marine style pump on my system. What is your thoughts? I had intended originally on using the jet pump, but it stopped working shortly after that bucket test. I'm thinking it must have sucked in some dirt possibly, although I never bothered to take it apart to check.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?

    I would go with the shurflo submersible 24 vdc pump (9300 if memory serves. Pumps just fine into a 60 psi tank at about 3 gmp. Not terribly expensive, very reliable, and only draws less than 5 amps at z24 vdc. It does make a bit of noise, so if you can plumb in a flexible loop before tieing to the tank, it cuts the noise to almost none.

    Tony
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?
    Toyman wrote: »
    Thanks for the replies Wayne! I'm also a east coast canuck and live in Newfoundland! What's the odds?!?

    You are right on the money about the duro/pompco. It was in a home I purchased before I hooked up an artesian. I believe it was set-up last with a 30/50psi PS. It was used for around 3 years before being taken out of service. The piston action is slow and rhythmic and probably makes 1-2 strokes per second which yields about a 1/2 - 1 cup each time. To compare I hooked up an older jet pump which filled a bucket in less than 30 secs, where the piston pump took closer to a minute or two at least (never actually timed it). From what I've read the piston pump is a hardy unit and can last a long time if looked after and new seals installed when necessary, but without a smaller motor to switch out I'm afraid of the draw it will have versus a 24v RV/Marine style pump on my system. What is your thoughts? I had intended originally on using the jet pump, but it stopped working shortly after that bucket test. I'm thinking it must have sucked in some dirt possibly, although I never bothered to take it apart to check.
    From NFLD? Hahaha How about that! My Grandmother was from Cupids CB! And I've climbed Gross Morne Mountain 8 or 9 times, lost tack. lol
    Anyway, back to the pumps you mentioned. Yes, the Jet will deliver relatively huge volumes compared to the piston - - UNTIL the pressure comes up, and when that happens, the piston pump output remains steady, while the output from the jet will drop off until when the pressure gets high enough it just sits there spinning it's tires, sucking up electricity and going nowhere. Not so with the piston pump.The piston should be supplying water on both the forward AND the back stroke. If it's not doing this, you'll likely find dirt holding one valve slightly open.
    I won't speak to the pump Icarus mentioned, because I'm not at all familiar with it. The old Duro I know inside out. Literally. They were used by the many hundreds of thousands, dare I say millions, across the Atlantic Provinces for well over 50 years. To say they were/are reliable is an understatement. They regularly went 20 years between valve and leather replacements in normal home use. Too bad you couldn't come across a high efficiency 1/4 hp motor for it. Better still a 1/6 hp, but that smaller size I doubt you'll find any more.
  • ToymanToyman Registered Users Posts: 6
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?

    Well that explains why the pump is so slow! It only provides water on the forward stroke. I had no idea it was supposed to pump on the backward stroke also! I'll have to check it out when I get a chance on the next trip to the camp. I also have the original pump that was in the house when I first viewed it prior to purchase. The previous owner claimed that it wept a bit and agreed to install a new before sale. He claimed it still worked fine, but probably needed a seal kit (which I believe I might have been given as well). I was at the hardware store this afternoon and they actually had a Flojet 24v RV/Marine pump (model 04405343A for those that may be familiar with these pumps) there which the guy gave me a break on, so I bought it before it sold to someone else. Still not 100% which route I'm going to go, but I think I might sell the newer piston pump and repair the older one and test both systems. Planning on heading to the camp for the long weekend coming up and hopefully have a chance to try it then.

    Thanks for the help with the piston pump!
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?

    "And I've climbed Gross Morne Mountain 8 or 9 times, lost tack. lol"

    i can't resist here. did you look on the bottom of your shoes?
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?
    niel wrote: »
    "And I've climbed Gross Morne Mountain 8 or 9 times, lost tack. lol"

    i can't resist here. did you look on the bottom of your shoes?

    Hahaha Yes Niel, I lost tack, and almost lost one of my souls too! Hahahahaha
  • 706jim706jim Solar Expert Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Lake pumping - 115v piston pump vs. 24v shurflo?

    Another old thread.......

    I use a GSW 1 1/2" piston pump which lifts around 6' through about 200' of 1" line.

    You just can't beat the "suck" of a piston pump!

    The GSW came with a 1/4 hp non capacitor start, sleeve bearing, aluminum wire wound motor and was dodgy to start with my DR1500 inverter.

    Changing the motor to a 1/4hp high efficiency capacitor start Leeson solved the starting problem and I've also replaced the original friction belt drive with a non slip timing belt setup.

    I purchased a heavy duty 24 volt (DC) model airplane starter motor that I was going to run direct off my 24 volt battery, but found this "fix" unnecessary after purchasing the Leeson motor.

    While RV pumps work fine for a while, you just can't beat the piston pump for re-priming itself because of intake line leaks, worn foot valve etc, and for durability. My Jabsco units always had problems after a couple of years, but the GSW is still going strong after 20 years service.

    The previously mentioned problems likely are due to leaking valves or worn piston leather and should be easy to fix.

    IMO, the Duro (Pompco) is a better design than the GSW in that the crankshaft is better supported by the crankcase casting. My GSW shaft actually flexes as the pump approaches its 40psi cutoff pressure.
    Island cottage solar system with 2400 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1kw facing southwest 400watt ancient Arco's facing south.Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Outback Flexmax 80 MPPT charge controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 27th year.
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