Power from water?

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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Power from water?

    Amazing. Is it possible? I've heard of hydrogen powered vehicles in the past with obvious concerns to safety. No doubt would it be a globle changing invention, just how would the oil giants react? Protecting their "nipple" is #1. :|
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Power from water?


    How come these gosh golly gee whiz inventions are always posted by "guest".
    although fox 26 (a houston station) probably would never run something they
    thought wasn't the real deal, they could be duped. On the other hand wouldn't
    be great if it were true.

    brad
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Power from water?

    Well, just some basic calculations:

    http://hytechapps.com/applications/H2O.htm 1 gallon of water used per 8 hours
    http://hytechapps.com/applications/H2O-specs.htm Unit uses 220 vac at 17 amps
    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=590986 16.5kWhrs to electrolysis 1 gallon of water

    Hytech kWhrs/gallon = 220v * 17 amps * 8 hours = 29.9 kWhrs per gallon.

    From the Google Link above, electrolysis is probably around 50-70% efficient:

    Theoretical/Hytech = 16.5/29.92 = 55% or just about on the low side of what would be expected in efficiency.

    Also, note that per his Fox news report (IIRC) his car can run on "Aquygen" gas, however in his demonstration, he mixes is with a normal air/gasoline for the demonstration...

    From what I have read, he is simply electrolyzing water into hydrogen and oxygen--and in this case, he is leaving the gases mixed together instead of separating out the hydrogen (for compression) and tossing the oxygen (as most folks do because of the energy required to compress the oxygen for a motor vehicle fuel is just not cost/storage effective when you have oxygen in the air all around you).

    Also, he talks about the mixture is 3x more power than a regular hydrogen car system--well that would probably be the case because a normal hydrogen engine will only use the oxygen found in normal air 21%, the rest being nitrogen, CO2, etc.
    The HHOS has been tested in two different vehicles (the current prototype, which is a 1994 Ford Escort Wagon, and a 1998 Ford Ranger pickup) and fuel economy increases have ranged from 22.9% to 100% depending upon the amount of electrical energy (amps & volts) that are available for the production of Aquygen™ Gas.

    Where is this "electrical energy (amps & volts)" coming from? The extension cord or trailer with the diesel engine on-board?

    Don't get me wrong, if you need oxy/hydrogen for welding and such, this might be a very nice unit for you--as long as you respect its limitations:
    • Gas out equals watts in--need a lot of gas, you need a lot of kilowatts.
    • Won't be able to store the gas--since the hydrogen and oxygen is (from what I have read) mixed, you cannot compress it very much without the risk of an explosion (or, perhaps you can store it at pressure in some sort of moderator like is done with acetylene).
    • If you need an oxidizing or reducing flame, I am not sure that it is capable of doing this.

    From the power point presentation:
    Only by-product of Aquygen™ combustion is WATER
    Aquygen™ is not the same as pure Hydrogen (H2)
    Aquygen™ is not the same as post production mixtures of Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen (O2)

    They tell me what it is not--but not what Aquygen is... It appears to me, that Aquygen is the exact ratio of 2H to 1O -- which is exactly what electrolyzed water would produce.

    Probably a nice machine if you need the gas--Presentation is pretty close to that of a Perpetual Motion Machine (ignore the plug on the back of the prototype--the production units won't need one).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Power from water?

    Listen to the video presentation (my quicktime video portion is not working on this one) and it sounds like they are hooking up the alternator of the engine to an electrolyzer.

    Well, if you want to tell me that feeding HHO gas into a car engine can possibly improve the emissions--possibly. That storing 55 PSI worth of HHO gas (a few liters worth) to give you a quick boost or very short term mileage improvement--OK.

    But, this part definitely falls into the perpetual motion machine trying to get more energy out the motor by connecting an alternator/electrolyzer. That is why he needs gasoline--to make the whole thing turn.

    I could be wrong--perhaps Mr. Herer can answer some questions for us.

    -Bill

    OK, here is the "secret" behind the technology...

    http://hytechapps.com/presentation/linked%20files/Hydro%20Tech/user%20added/Santilli,%20International%20Journal.pdf

    There is something that folks are calling "Brown's Gas" (the Hytech guys are saying that theirs is not "Brown's Gas" but the descriptions of the effects of combustion are identical). See here:

    http://www.eagle-research.com/

    Basically, they are proposing that the gas produced by electrolysis is not H2 and O2 gas, but a mixture of gases that include monotonic H and O atoms and HHO and various other combinations that have only been recently, possibly, discovered.

    The abstract from Hytechapps.com link above:
    Abstract

    In this paper we present, apparently for the first time, various measurements on a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen called HHO gas produced via a new electrolyzer (international patents pending by Hydrogen Technologies Applications, Inc. of Clearwater,vFlorida), which mixture is distinctly different than the Brown and other known gases. The measurements herein reported suggestvthe existence in the HHO gas of stable clusters composed of H and O atoms, their dimers H–O, and their molecules H2, O2vand H2O whose bond cannot entirely be of valence type. Numerous anomalous experimental measurements on the HHO gas are reported in this paper for the first time. To reach their preliminary, yet plausible interpretation, we introduce the working hypothesis that the clusters constituting the HHO gas constitute another realization of a recently discovered new chemical species called for certain technical reasons magnecules as well as to distinguish them from the conventional “molecules” [Santilli RM. Foundations of hadronic chemistry with applications to new clean energies and fuels. Boston, Dordrecht, London: Kluwer Academic Publisher; 15 2001]. It is indicated that the creation of the gaseous and combustible HHO from distilled water at atmospheric temperature and pressure occurs via a process structurally different than evaporation or separation, thus suggesting the existence of a new form of water, apparently introduced in this paper for the first time, with the structure (H × H)–O where “×” represents the new magnecular bond and “−” the conventional molecular bond. The transition from the conventional H–O–H species to the new (H × H)–O species is predicted by a change of the electric polarization of water caused by the electrolyzer. When H–O–H is liquid, the new species (H×H)–O can only be gaseous, thus explaining the transition of state without evaporation or separation energy. Finally, the new species (H × H)–O is predicted to be unstable and decay into H × H and O, by permitting a plausible interpretation of the anomalous constituents of the HHO gas as well as its anomalous behavior. Samples of the new HHO gas are available at no cost for independent verifications, including guidelines for the detection of the new species. 2005 Published by Elsevier Ltd on behalf of the International Association for Hydrogen Energy.

    Wikipedia has an entry that states there is much hand-waving, but no proof of any actual claims of H and O gases:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown%27s_gas

    Here is an archive of a discussion between Brown Gas promoters and detractors--sounds like a scam of many decades standing...

    http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm Forgot to add link last night...

    I guess anything is possible--I am not a chemist so I am not the right person to make any claims about this--but I remain unconvinced at this point.

    -BB
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Brock
    Brock Solar Expert Posts: 639 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Power from water?

    I have seen that same thing earlier this month. They run the car on only water, then quietly in the background they say "and a few cents of electricity". I thought I read the water car had 20kw worth of batteries in it?

    Look at it this way. Some how you have to charge 20KW worth of batteries, let’s assume 15% loss there. Now you can either run an all electric motor to drive the car, with what at most 50% lost to heat (more likely about 25% loss), or you can use that same power convert it to HHO at a 50% loss, and then burn it in an ICE for another 75% loss. I just don't get why you don't drive the car with electricity in the first place?

    Running straight electric has the least loss and the least environmental damage, no expensive catalyst or fuel cell or gasoline engine to lug around. I just don’t get it? The thing that really bugs me about all this is the guy that built this car has to know it would be more efficient to just drive an electric motor with that electricity.
    3kw solar PV, 4 LiFePO4 100a, xw 6048, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Tesla 3, Leaf, Volt, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Power from water?

    Here is the link I forgot in my post above... It is fun to read--kind of like a nerdy perpetual motion soap opera.

    http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm

    Lastly, who is Jack Herer? If it is his real name, a very interesting person... If it is a nome de plume, then it is a very interesting name to pick:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Herer
    Jack Herer is the author of The Emperor Wears No Clothes (ISBN 0-9524560-0-1) (several editions since c.1985), a book which has been used in efforts to decriminalize cannabis.

    A former Goldwater Republican, Herer is now an outspoken pro-marijuana and hemp activist. He has written two books, the aforementioned The Emperor Wears No Clothes and Grass. There has also been a documentary made about his life. He believes that the hemp plant should be decriminalized because it has been shown to be a renewable source of fuel, food, and medicine, and can be grown in virtually any part of the world. He has devoted his life to the support of cannabis, hemp and marijuana.

    Jack Herer is also the name given to a specific strain of cannabis that is considered by many to be among the world's finest (see Overgrow Strainguide).

    Herer ran for United States President twice, in 1988 and 1992 as the Grassroots Party candidate.

    Just out of curiosity, can one of the moderators look up the posting IP address and see if it is associated with either Mr. Herer or the Hytechapps company?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Power from water?
    Just out of curiosity, can one of the moderators look up the posting IP address and see if it is associated with either Mr. Herer or the Hytechapps company?

    That activity is outside the rights of the non-NAWS moderators. Besides, I'm too busy replacing the Tornado turbo-boosted vortex miracle carburetor that's on my pickup's fuel-injected V-11 with the spare flux-capacitor I picked up at a Hollywood flea market.  :wink:

    Regards,
    Jim / crewzer
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Power from water?

    i thought it sounded like some pothead scheme :mrgreen:
    theres power ion that bong!

    does sound cool for welding though , but spend less on gas more on electricity.
    sounds like my pellet stove dilema almost exactly.